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The Tequatl Debacle


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#1 Zhaitan

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:58 PM

IMHO, Teq update was a complete disaster because of lack of proper planning. Now, on all server non-OF, Tequatl sits alone in a cage waiting to be petted while the counter counts down.

Before ANET decides to touch other big mob bosses, they need to rethink their overflow and guesting policies.

#2 MisterJaguar25

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:05 PM

I think the problem is they made it way too difficult, to the point where people don't even wanna bother, not even for whatever reward it gives. At least for pugs, which is what most world events are. I think we can all agree that since nobodies doing it anymore, and after so little time since it was added, something's wrong.

#3 Swoopeh

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:40 PM

If they just make it scale down a bit so 15-20 people can do it then that would be a vast improvement. I'm really not sure what made them believe that requiring 80+ people for an event was a good idea, anyone could have seen (and probably did see) this coming.

Edited by Swoopeh, 23 October 2013 - 06:40 PM.


#4 Zhaitan

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:47 PM

I don't know why my OP got posted w/ less than half of what I wrote. <lol>

Problem with this type of design are:

1. Loot
2. Wait time
3. Organization

Let's face it. The loot from the mobs is GW2 is just ..meh. And Tequatl is no different. Just more of same variety. ANET designed the game that way. Now, "significant" increase won't do shit. I have killed Teq several times. It's simply because I am part of a massive organization that wanted to kill it during reset every night. Eventually ardor cooled and no one ever bothered to touch the mob again as soon as most people got done w/ their AP checklists. Who wants to spend an hour on thumb twidling for a bagful of greens and blues when you could do a few other things and make 20 times more during that time? The looted ascended weapon concept is total BS. It would have worked if it were a token that you could collect and possibly exchange something like 10 of them for an item that you needed instead of a skin w/ random stats that you may not want and will need to transfuse (aka use gem store) to make it useful.

Next is wait time. You have to hunt people who know which effing overflow is going to have a group that will be able to kill this mob. Now, once you find it, chances are it is already full and you will have to join someone who is already in the overflow to be able to merge in. However, it does not work if you are guesting. In that case, you have to zone in and out and pray to Gods for the right OF merge. I have done it all. <lol>

Third is organization. GW2 is a game for zerging. It's a fact. Every single event is designed around zerg. And those are not, people will find a way to zerg it down. Anything in the open world is fair game for zerging. That's the mentality. Now, Bam! Here comes Teq that needs zerging w/ organization. Good Luck organizing zergers. People who took that responsibility initially did that for achievements and simply because it was something new. I know, personally, a couple of guys who said during Boss week that Teq was the best thing ANET did after a long while. It was the challenge they were looking for. They hoped ANET never nerfs it and keeps it challenging for them. Today, I wonder how they would justify their apathy to the challenge that they were looking for so long when I see them afking at LA while Teq is in his cage at Fen counting its claws,

Edited by Zhaitan, 23 October 2013 - 06:57 PM.


#5 DonZardeone

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:52 PM

Having killed teq a few times now, the biggest challenge is getting in the right overflow or into main.

I'd like to see districts added back. Just click the thingy and get into the district you select.

We're already doing districts by using ferries. Wish it was less of a pain.

#6 Katsumi Kei

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:57 PM

Well, my only problem is it's respawn time. If i knew when it is going to pop i would gladly try doing the raid. Also if i got ingame msg that a huge dragon is trying to destroy sparkfly fen  ( like scarlet's attacks), I would go. So will a lot of people, i am sure.

#7 Zhaitan

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:02 PM

View PostKatsumi Kei, on 23 October 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

Well, my only problem is it's respawn time. If i knew when it is going to pop i would gladly try doing the raid. Also if i got ingame msg that a huge dragon is trying to destroy sparkfly fen  ( like scarlet's attacks), I would go. So will a lot of people, i am sure.

I am sure too. And therein lies the rub. You will be stuck in the wrong overflow.

I don't think overflows and mega mobs mesh well together. It's a problem that is not easy to fix without moving Teq to an instance that can be accessed only after completion of some world events. Then again, they need to rework it's loot table. I don't care much for 8-12 greens that I almost always got from it.

#8 Datenshi92

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostKatsumi Kei, on 23 October 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

Well, my only problem is it's respawn time. If i knew when it is going to pop i would gladly try doing the raid. Also if i got ingame msg that a huge dragon is trying to destroy sparkfly fen  ( like scarlet's attacks), I would go. So will a lot of people, i am sure.

There is a program called "GW2 event Overlay" that you can customize to show whatever type of events around Tyria you want - if Temples or World Bosses or both. It works like a layer on top of GW2 ala Fraps so I don't think there's any problem in using it. just google it if you're interested and bam, you'll be able to catch the pre-events and be there on time.

Edited by Datenshi92, 23 October 2013 - 07:06 PM.


#9 MazingerZ

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:15 PM

The biggest limitation of this type of encounter is organization and people have already figured out how to break up into groups that can handle the encounter and keep the scrubs from screwing it up, both through a policy of completely micro-managing the encounter themselves or exclusion.

It's not a very Open World when people can separate into their own little Gentleman's Clubs that can kill the dragon and get the loot while the rest are left out in the cold.

At least Blizzard's World Bosses had the decency to sit around till someone managed to kill it.  I'd think better of the Teq revamp if he kept tearing through Sparkfly until someone managed to down him.  The simple fact that he clocks out after so long like goddamned Sam Sheepdog and Ralph the Wolf after a fixed amount of time is bullcrap.  The simple fact that his spawn is on CD, his dragon box is time-gated, should be enough to throttle loot acquisition and make sure that he's killed by *someone* eventually, given enough tries.

Teq doesn't even drop anything of note, with the exception of Ascended crafting mats, and yet he's a limited-time loot resource.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#10 Doctor Overlord

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:38 PM

It is good to hear others who view Teq as now being dead content.  I remember when people used to gather and hang out and chat waiting for Teq to spawn.   Now I only see that beach as an empty desert.
I know there are players who may have Teq on farm status but I think there is much of the player population who are excluded for the reasons presented here and others.  

I really hope it was not ArenaNet's intention to drive people into joining the Teq-killing guilds months after the game's release.   I already used up my 5 guild slots in the first 6 months, I don't have room for another. If this was their intent they really should have at least increased out guild slots.

I also hope they did not intend for Teq to become segregated content.  The encounter may still getting done by some guilds that have figured out how to game Overflow system but that basically turns the encounter into an instanced raid rather than an open-world encounter.

I think the suggestion to have Teq hang around if he not killed is a good one.   If ArenaNet must incorporate the annoying timer, it should only activate if he has been defeated.   The time limit on the event was probably the worst thing that they could have done for an open world event that will naturally have more zerg to it than organized players.

View PostZhaitan, on 23 October 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

I know, personally, a couple of guys who said during Boss week that Teq was the best thing ANET did after a long while. It was the challenge they were looking for. They hoped ANET never nerfs it and keeps it challenging for them. Today, I wonder how they would justify their apathy to the challenge that they were looking for so long when I see them afking at LA while Teq is in his cage at Fen counting its claws,
Well said.   There was so much excitement over Teq when it was first released.   The hardcore players were clamoring about how this was exactly what they wanted to see. Now this content may be on farm status for some but it is in overflow servers most people cannot access.    

This is hardly the kind of inclusive feeling the game has been able to foster with other events like Clockwork Chaos and such.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 23 October 2013 - 07:39 PM.


#11 Terra Miko

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:39 PM

View PostSwoopeh, on 23 October 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

If they just make it scale down a bit so 15-20 people can do it then that would be a vast improvement. I'm really not sure what made them believe that requiring 80+ people for an event was a good idea, anyone could have seen (and probably did see) this coming.
The mechanics of Tequatl doesn't lend itself to be easily scaled.

I rather them re-evaluate the timer on Teq (for all world bosses even). It just does not make sense why we fail in x minutes with no story to back it up.

If a group of 5 wants to spend 1 hour or more to take down Teq, why punish them for it for not being able to do it in 15 minutes?

#12 Swoopeh

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:10 PM

View PostTerra Miko, on 23 October 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

The mechanics of Tequatl doesn't lend itself to be easily scaled.

Scale his health and the number of adds based on the amount of players? Already happens with other world bosses. As long as you have enough to man/defend some turrets (5-8) and have another small group dpsing (10) that could work. Same mechanics and coordination, less people and less issues with overflows. I agree with you on the timer.

Edited by Swoopeh, 24 October 2013 - 07:24 AM.


#13 Baldur The Bold

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:15 PM

We all knew that this would happen right from the get go.
This should be instanced content, or if not instanced then with 0 despawn ability.

It is a fail meta event now until they decide to do something,

I love difficult content but not in an open world zerg, what were the devs thinking? Do they even play their own game?

Too bad because I like the encounter. Too bad because I will probably never do it again.

#14 Doctor Overlord

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:25 PM

View PostBaldur The Bold, on 23 October 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

,
I love difficult content but not in an open world zerg, what were the devs thinking? Do they even play their own game?
Well, some people may have predicted this result but to be fair to ArenaNet, the only way to truly know how something will turn out in an MMO is to release it and see what happens.   People were clamoring for harder, large-group/guild content and at least ArenaNet did make the attempt. I would rather see them try something and have it not work out than just stick to the same old thing.

The interesting thing is that tough world bosses have been seen in old-school MMOs and were popular (although people complained about camping and respawn times). In the modern MMO market, the new mechanics and player attitudes have clearly changed how open world bosses can be done.  

I do agree 100% that Teq 2.0 seems to have shown that in the modern MMO market, difficult content is fine in instances but not in the open world where the zerg is the rule. Compared to those old-school MMOs, the playerbase is far larger with a much wider variety of players which might be part of the reason for this.

Teq 2.0 could be seen as an experiment to see if organization can consistently guide the modern zerg and it seems to show that just did not happen.

Or rather it showed that organized players are really good at organizing ways to avoid the zerg/general populace and insure that only people they want can take part in the content.

I've always been of the opinion that the open-world should be about feel-good slot machine game play while instanced content is where the challenges should be (the exception being the core lore/storyines which should have difficulty sliders or lacking those just be easy so everyone can see it). I do wonder what ArenaNet has learned from Teq 2.0 since they have the actual numbers.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 23 October 2013 - 10:38 PM.


#15 Occultus

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:42 PM

I haven't even got him down once yet and, to be honest, I can't be arsed trying any more.

Edited by Occultus, 23 October 2013 - 10:43 PM.


#16 Bloggi

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 11:58 PM

Well, any number of us here with half a brain would have predicted this from the start: that Teq would be a dead event within a few weeks on numerous servers (and time zones). Even on a more populated server, I'm now getting onto the main Teq map and it's completely dead. So I solo it for giggles only to have it fail so I can still walk away with that damned 1 achievement point.

It's humorous because a number of folk have been clamoring for more difficult content, and yet when that's implemented, nobody really wants to do it anymore, save for perhaps a number of coordinated guilds in voice chat on a server or two. Truth is that a lot of people are loot-driven rabbits. Why would people want to farm Teq when there's numerous brain-dead dungeon paths that you can do daily, and for probably the same level of return?

Heck, I don't even have time (or want) to do even a single dungeon path on most days. The point is, numerous players look at return versus time spent. People don't necessarily just want more difficult content. They want that, plus better loot to justify the level of difficulty.

Achieving the required level of coordination for Teq isn't going to be easy in open-world, especially when there's dozens of idle turds sitting around waiting to be handed their crispy Tequatl wings on a silver platter. But it is precisely the idle turds that are taking up valuable space and pushing the ones who actually want to do it, right into an overflow map. Implement a debuff of some sort that deals damage over time for idling in the area, and then log the player out after being in defeated state after a reasonable countdown. This would also encourage people to run back after being defeated, rather than lying there dead and making it difficult to res the people who are downed and yet to be defeated.

#17 NerfHerder

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 01:56 AM

I like the fact that they are revisiting boss fights, but I would prefer them spending a little bit longer tweaking them before moving on to the next one. Or as Anet calls it, Iteration.

I also agree with some of the solutions. Scaling is a big issue, see Karka Queen. And if they cant scale it down, maybe a 40-60 man instance would be better way to go about it. That would be much easier to organize, and would be more satisfying to repeat. As you wouldn't have as many uncontrollable variables, while still keeping the challenge.

#18 Baldur The Bold

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 02:39 AM

Having a challenge like Teq 2.0 with 100 unorganized open world individuals with 0 tools ingame to implement any sort of coordination besides map chat is ridiculous.

I love difficult content, and GW2 desperately needs it but make it an instance...where is my FoW, my UW, my DoA? Fractals and Arah?

Teq 2.0 is and will be a dead meta until Anet does something, and making it a ♥♥♥♥ing daily isn't the answer.

#19 Castaa

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 07:39 AM

Making it a daily achievement is also a bad idea, since like most here have stated, it's too difficult and no one is even trying to attempt it because it's largely a waste of time.

I have no issue with difficult encounters but at least ramp up the difficulty so people can practice large scale coordination instead of throwing most to the wolves.

Probably the easiest solution is to make something like unique infusions or upgrades drop from the reward chests to make the best players want to kill him at least every day.

Edited by Castaa, 24 October 2013 - 07:40 AM.


#20 DarkGhostGizmoXx

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:42 AM

Considering my server didn't bring him down for the entire event (or maybe once at the most), there's no way people are going to bother with it anymore. It's just too hard, plain and simple.

#21 Exo Dyo

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 10:42 AM

View PostCastaa, on 24 October 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Making it a daily achievement is also a bad idea, since like most here have stated, it's too difficult and no one is even trying to attempt it because it's largely a waste of time.

This is truly not a problem on ALL servers. I do Tequatl almost daily on Desolation, and my last 5 attempts were all successful. I can imagine though that it is a problem on servers where the population is less, since Desolation has been from very much the start a Very High populated server.

#22 Guardian of the Light

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 12:06 PM

Well TTS that Tequatl slaying guild is still killing him daily on multiple overflows and a couple high population servers are too but it's to be expected that most other servers can't kill that often. I honestly think Tequatls problems lie less with the event and it's difficultly and more with everything around it.

For starters for some reason the boss is still on a timer which means your probably going to be standing around waiting for him to spawn most of the time which discourages anyone trying to learn the fight. Tequatl is begging for a pre-event that only resets if he fails so you can spawn him whenever your server is ready. Also there needs to be an easier way of guilds getting their own overflow then the current "taxi" system which only a guild as large as TTS can do at this point.

Other then that there's nothing wrong with hard content in the game. There are many more world bosses and meta-events you can do daily and Tequatl was an absolute joke before this patch. If you really want to kill this guy just join one of those tequatl slaying guilds most of them are open and don't have representation rules.

#23 Satenia

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 01:53 PM

View PostExo Dyo, on 24 October 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

This is truly not a problem on ALL servers. I do Tequatl almost daily on Desolation, and my last 5 attempts were all successful. I can imagine though that it is a problem on servers where the population is less, since Desolation has been from very much the start a Very High populated server.

On Desolation, the event is overpopulated (aka overflow) during prime-time and just as under-populated as elsewhere during off-hours. Neither situation is ideal. Overflows are even harder to organize, while getting into the main-server prior to it being crowded simply results in absurdly long waiting times.

Additionally, as Desolation seems to be known for its reliable Tequatl-kills, you almost always face the problem of an /afk-crowd taking up precious player-slots.

Far too many problems and far too much hassle.

Agreed with the OP that Anet should better rethink their strategy before "improving" any other world bosses.

#24 kalendraf

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:35 PM

Somewhere along the way, the concept of scaling encounters seems to have gone astray.  With scaling, if more players are present, the difficulty should increase, and if there are fewer players it should decrease.  A well-designed encounter should be able to scale from one player up to the map limit of hundreds of players.  The current Teq encounter throws that out the window by requiring some kind of minimum threshold of players for a chance to be successful.

I think ANet is moving in the wrong direction with PvE content that forces huge numbers of players (with or without coordination) to overcome obstacles. On the surface, it may seem like it encourages players to work together, but instead it winds up segregating the PvE population into groups that gravitate toward the content requiring huge numbers of players (zergs?), and the rest that prefer the content that can be overcome by smaller numbers of players.  It also leads to the situation we have now where the teq encounter is simply avoided on many servers since there aren't enough players to reach the threshold for success.

Some may blame the players for not being able to learn and adapt to the the encounter.  However, that argument doesn't address the bigger issue for many players of not being able to practice and improve on their own server because there aren't enough other players participating.   The root cause is that the encounter design requires too large of a threshold of players for a chance at success.

#25 Phenn

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:41 PM

Ultimately, it seems to me that the issue boils down to incentive. At release, the incentive for bringing down Teq was the rep of having been the first server to accomplish a (at the time) rather difficult task. Now, as has been said, there's a tiny chance of an Ascended weapon that most will want to Transmute. The risk/reward ratio is not worth it in nearly all instances.

Now there'll always be those who find reward in simply accomplishing the task, but the vast majority of players won't.

My hope for the event had been that 1) there was an area that could be accessed following the defeat of Taq, and that 2) the area was worth the work. Even if ANet made it so that Taq rampaged around Sparkfly, the area itself isn't worth trying to reclaim. Other than Platinum farming, I've never thought, "You know where I haven't run around in a while? Sparkfly Fen." So the only other alternative in my book is to create another area that has either farming nodes, or special merchants, or particular mobs that would merit taking out Taq and keeping him from reclaiming the "pass" if you will.

I dunno. There's so much potential that just seems wasted to me.

EDIT: So. Many. Typos. Fixed now.

Edited by Phenn, 24 October 2013 - 03:59 PM.


#26 Craywulf

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:16 PM

Problem is with mobs in general is that they are extremely territorial to point that they never leave their area even if provoked. I'm not talking about pulling mobs a few yards out their nesting, I'm talking about mobs don't chase after you when you run far away or leave the zone. So what does this have to do with Tequatl? Well a boss that big and ferocious shouldn't be relegated to a small bay in Sparkfly Fen. It should be attacking in multiple zones scaring the shit out of players and disrupting their usual zerg train champion hunt. If you piss off boss then they should go after you for the long haul, not take coffee breaks between entanglements. Bosses need to wander the entire map, not just their playpen.

#27 GODh

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:51 PM

I probably did 20+ attempt and never got a better result than teq losing 20-25% health. I also tried to guest to other servers, because i dont think my home server is capable of defeating teq. But i always end up in chaotic overflows, because i dont want to wait a hour for teq to arrive. I know that some servers have a daily teq-event, but thats always at times when i cant be online.

I lost hope that i ever will able to defeat teq...

#28 Terra Miko

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:04 PM

View PostSwoopeh, on 23 October 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

Scale his health and the number of adds based on the amount of players? Already happens with other world bosses. As long as you have enough to man/defend some turrets (5-8) and have another small group dpsing (10) that could work. Same mechanics and coordination, less people and less issues with overflows. I agree with you on the timer.
There's more variables to Teq than just health and adds. The hardened scales and the rate it increases will define how many turrets need to be manned. The number of fingers that spawn and how the battery phases scale will also become a factor. All while in an unpredictable environment where random players passing by may make the encounter more difficult.

Anet has literally created a monster and I would expect iterative updates at best.

Edited by Terra Miko, 24 October 2013 - 05:11 PM.


#29 Hawkengrey

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:25 PM

I've downed him a few times now.  Once on my home server and twice guested over to another.  It's a tough fight, but not even remotely close to the difficulty of your average, proper raid fight from WoW or Rift.   Consider at times in WoW raids, our fairly high ranking guild would at times work on the more difficult bosses for months before successfully downing them.  Tequatl, I participated in a few failed attempts, then about 1 week after release, I downed it with a pug.  That's not a difficult boss, I'm sorry to say.

The only thing which really makes it difficult is that it's essentially a large pug every time, and it comes with the usual variability that that brings.

#30 Atticus

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:44 PM

View PostHawkengrey, on 24 October 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

I've downed him a few times now.  Once on my home server and twice guested over to another.  It's a tough fight, but not even remotely close to the difficulty of your average, proper raid fight from WoW or Rift.   Consider at times in WoW raids, our fairly high ranking guild would at times work on the more difficult bosses for months before successfully downing them.  Tequatl, I participated in a few failed attempts, then about 1 week after release, I downed it with a pug.  That's not a difficult boss, I'm sorry to say.

The only thing which really makes it difficult is that it's essentially a large pug every time, and it comes with the usual variability that that brings.

I agree he's not that hard however part of the difficulty is getting enough players who want to organize enough to kill him. On my own server we have a very low amount of players and often many of them think they can just zerg him down like most other bosses in the game and that's part of the problem. This game and many many parts of it have encouraged mndless zerging long enough that players aren't interested in doing anything else. They want their loot pinata and aren't interested in having to work for that so often enough you have enough players interested in the fight to possibly accomplish it but enough knowledgeable players willing to do him right? That's another story

Ugh, I just reminded myself of the story in this game... now I'm depressed




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