Jump to content

Photo
* * * * * 9 votes

[Guide] An Introduction to the Necromancer

necro power cond dagger warhorn wells build guide

  • Please log in to reply
115 replies to this topic

#31 Phenn

Phenn

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 805 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[THF]
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 10 December 2013 - 04:09 PM

Awesome guide here!
I went back to the game after taking a break during summer and I decided to make a necro after reading your well-bomber guide. I'm still using it after all this time and I love it. Does decent damage while keeping up sustain. (I use mixed knights with zerker because i usually pug dungeons and fractals). So, thanks for that, you converted an a supposed die hard ele into a necro ^^

So now question time: I don't like messing up people fire fields on dungeon runs with my wells, so I was thinking using the same traits with only 20 points in blood line (taking bloodthirst and vampiric precision). But then I couldn't find anything else to put those 10 points into. Also, I'm so used to having at least 2-3 wells on my bar, which utilities can be used for that kind of build? I'm guessing blood is power with a stun breaker and maybe one well for the dungeon specific stuff (boon removal or blind).

It will probably be a bit sucky since I won't have the well sustain or the aoe damage on demand. Just wanted to throw the idea and see what bounces off.


Welcome! Thanks for the kind words. My goal with all "my" builds is to interest people into playing the class and making it enjoyable, even if it's a departure from meta. So it's always good to hear when someone takes something I've done and is working with it and enjoying it.

On to your questions:

1. Conflict with Fire fields (and Water fields...why is Well of Blood not a Water field? Why? My personal beef at the moment) is unavoidable with a Well build. I dunno how many times I've had buddies go, "What the? Why did I just spam blind and life leech?" Dark Fields aren't common, they can confuse informed PuGs, and their utility is fleeting. They would be epic for a Vampiric build IF WE HAD A FINISHER OR TWO. But we don't. So your problem is quite valid.

2. That being said, my recommendations are two: You can either stick with 15/25/0/30/0 and take Transfusion (or Deathly Invigoration), Bloodthirst, and Vampiric Precision in Blood, and then swap your utilities to BiP (as you say), Signet of Spite, and Well of _____ for utility. OR you can swap to 20/20/0/30/0 and go full Minion Siphon. This gives you access to two (2) blast finishers to make use of Fire fields, quite a bit of utility with Bone Fiend's immobilize, you're not overwriting other people's fields, and you keep the sustain that you had with Wells (in fact, the sustain is BETTER).

Now, anytime you run with Minions you run into issues with AI and insta-gibs with TKOs from bosses. BUT the sustain for yourself is better, the sustained DPS is better, and you DO assist your allies by adding meat shields to the fray. I went through AC Story with just Loperdos with a form of this build (we were both ~lvl 50), and it facerolled.

So that'd be my first recommendation. The nice thing about 20/20/0/30/0 is that you can swap back to Wells when appropriate without too much loss in DPS or healing.

If, however, you don't want to use Minions, then you're better off running 30/20/0/20/0 and just spamming D/ AA. You'll loose some burst, and you won't have the same amount of sustain, but as soon as you drop Wells and Minions, your options become limited as far as Siphon builds go.

Hope some of this helps. Shoot me a note if you decide to use one or more of these and let me know how it works for you. Especially if you end up making any sort of tweaks, etc.
  • 0

#32 OChunx

OChunx

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 118 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 11 December 2013 - 01:57 AM

I know how unpopular conditions are in pve, but I really feel that if you really want to aim to make a comprehensive introduction to the necromancer as the title would lead one to believe, I really think that you should devote a much larger section to addressing conditionmancers as it's an entire playstyle that is left out in this guide and I would dare say at least half the necromancer community uses.

I realize that you explicitly say your reason why you choose not to include it, "my experience is limited and others have explained it already", but when you advertise your guide as just a general introduction to necromancers and have it stickied, whatever its content is inherently becomes what the necromancer is to a casual browser (who doesn't play necromancer) or a newcomer to the game, in which case, "necromancers focus on power and death shroud builds and aim to do high DPS this way", which gives an incomplete picture. It also conveys a bias to those looking for necromancer help to go to a guide meant for all and see 90% power builds. I mean daggers alone have three different builds that one can easily see, but there's only one link for a condition build and many further clicks until you can see the build and any possible options.

I certainly don't object to any of the written content; all of it is thoroughly organized, well-designed, and fantastic work, it's just that if you aim to be a comprehensive introduction to the necromancer, you can't write it as just a guide for powermancers. Whether it was your original intention or not to actually be comprehensive, the sticky has sort of thrust this mandate onto your guide. If you don't think you're qualified to write a guide on condition builds, then this really should have been framed as an introduction to powermancers rather than to all necromancers.

I don't know, I hope I made sense. You have the challenge and potential of creating a great resource for all necromancers, so it would be a shame if it's scope were to be so limited. These guru guides actually have a huge impact in game in influencing what builds people run (just look over to the guardian and warrior sections, the meta builds that like 90% run come from just a couple threads) so anything that is a sticky and advertises as a guide to all necromancers has the job of giving exposure to all viable necromancer builds, regardless of if you think some builds are better than others, you like one playstyle more, or if you aren't qualified to write on other builds.

Also thanks for the little shoutout at the bottom for my stupid guide. Maybe minions will be good one day...

Edited by OChunx, 11 December 2013 - 02:10 AM.

  • 1

#33 Phenn

Phenn

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 805 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[THF]
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:08 AM

~brevity snip~

Also thanks for the little shoutout at the bottom for my stupid guide. Maybe minions will be good one day...


First, by all means I'm happy to direct people to your build thread. It's been instrumental in my understanding of the Necro as a whole. Running it presently with the buff (?) to Reanimator and having fun.

But to you larger point you are absolutely correct. I had hoped that linking to Lopez 's work would provide at least a starting point for those interested in the Conditionmancer. Also, all of the inquiries concerning the Necro at the time I was writing the guide concerned Power builds. So I was filling that need at the time. I fully plan on expanding the guide to include a better breakdown of Minions and ConD builds, but given the semester's imminent conclusion I'm somewhat pressed for available free time. If you'd like to contribute in any way, shoot me a PM and we'll chat!
  • 0

#34 OChunx

OChunx

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 118 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:43 AM

First, by all means I'm happy to direct people to your build thread. It's been instrumental in my understanding of the Necro as a whole. Running it presently with the buff (?) to Reanimator and having fun.

But to you larger point you are absolutely correct. I had hoped that linking to Lopez 's work would provide at least a starting point for those interested in the Conditionmancer. Also, all of the inquiries concerning the Necro at the time I was writing the guide concerned Power builds. So I was filling that need at the time. I fully plan on expanding the guide to include a better breakdown of Minions and ConD builds, but given the semester's imminent conclusion I'm somewhat pressed for available free time. If you'd like to contribute in any way, shoot me a PM and we'll chat!


Sounds good. I'm fully confident that you probably know condition builds just as well as I do, but I'd be happy to show what I run if you're interested when the time comes. Minions on the other hand don't really seem to be a top, top priority for this guide in my opinion. As a build it technically exists, but like you already said, it's simply just niche. When the patches start being kinder to minions, maybe then there'll be a time where minions can earn a spot in the meta.

And good luck on your exams I'm guessing are coming up!

Edited by OChunx, 11 December 2013 - 05:44 AM.

  • 0

#35 Pregnantman

Pregnantman

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 155 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[LAD]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 11 December 2013 - 03:06 PM

Can you also make a more comprehensive approach to Minions in Utility section? They have really good situational uses and seperate a necro from a necro who can follow a build to an innovative one.
  • 0

#36 OChunx

OChunx

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 118 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 31 December 2013 - 12:51 AM

Actually I'm going to be stupid and go back on what I said before. Coming back from a three month break, I was actually pretty ignorant in saying that lots of people still play condition builds. While still a viable option, conditions are arguably so much less powerful than power builds that they're starting to become just as niche as minion builds.

As such, the amount of focus this guide gives to each build does pretty accurately reflect the current meta and the important focuses that the necromancer should have in PvE. I apologize for just a bunch of needless criticism, although I suppose it wouldn't hurt to add a bit more about conditions or minions or anything I guess.
  • 0

#37 BartenderMan

BartenderMan

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 86 posts
  • Guild Tag:[GP]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:08 AM

Just because condition and minion necro builds are frowned upon in dungeons and major world boss events (which the necromancer doesn't really excel at anyway) doesn't mean they don't have their place in the game, and definitely shouldn't mean that they be excluded from this introductory guide. Condition builds are really strong in WvWvW and PvP and I hear minionmancer is also strong in PvP.
  • 0

#38 Phenn

Phenn

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 805 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[THF]
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:14 AM

Yeah, I'm fully planning on adding those aspects next week. Just got get through this crazy winter that decided to descend on the Midwest.
  • 0

#39 OChunx

OChunx

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 118 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 04 January 2014 - 06:35 AM

Just because condition and minion necro builds are frowned upon in dungeons and major world boss events (which the necromancer doesn't really excel at anyway) doesn't mean they don't have their place in the game, and definitely shouldn't mean that they be excluded from this introductory guide. Condition builds are really strong in WvWvW and PvP and I hear minionmancer is also strong in PvP.


Yea, what you're saying is true, players should be at least in the know for all the options that they have available. I just really wrongfully criticized Phenn for focusing 90% of the guide on power builds while in my head I thought the balance between condition and power exposure in the guide should more be like 60/40 or even 50/50. After coming back for awhile though, it's plenty clear that power builds are in the meta right now and are beyond a doubt better than conditions in PvE. As such, it would only be responsible to tell new players the established truth: that if you want to play necromancer right, then run power. And when I say "right", I really do mean that that's the only acceptable way to play necromancer most optimally in dungeons and fractals. Allow them to play around with conditions and minion builds to know the versatility of the necromancer, but when they start thinking about ascended gear and speed running dungeons, they should without a doubt use power builds.

Honestly, condition damage is in such a sad state I feel that the use of it in PvE should just completely die off and disappear from the accepted meta, sort of like condition thieves (death blossom spamming), condition warriors (mainhand sword). condition rangers (axe mainhand and shortbow), and condition mesmers all have. Even condition engineers, who utilize conditions just as well as necromancers, are starting to disappear. As of right now, however, I think conditions are still viable enough to deserve it's own, separate section in the guide, especially if minion builds and even less widely used builds are even being featured. In fact, conditions are still widely used enough that I would still consider it a meta build, even if I don't think it deserves the spot, sorta like how I'd still consider Strife's anchor guardian build meta even though all the zerker advocates absolutely detest the notion of a support guardian. As far as I'm concerned meta are just the builds that are effective enough to be so commonly run that a lot of people know about it and run it. Yes, I know that's not quite the correct definition of the meta, but let's call it an interpretation.

Lastly, it's interesting that you say that both conditions and minions excel in WvW and/or PvP. However, remember that you're currently in the PvE only forum, so anything about WvW or PvP is completely irrelevant.

Edited by OChunx, 04 January 2014 - 06:48 AM.

  • 0

#40 Pregnantman

Pregnantman

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 155 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[LAD]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 04 January 2014 - 09:17 AM

Just because condition and minion necro builds are frowned upon in dungeons and major world boss events (which the necromancer doesn't really excel at anyway) doesn't mean they don't have their place in the game, and definitely shouldn't mean that they be excluded from this introductory guide. Condition builds are really strong in WvWvW and PvP and I hear minionmancer is also strong in PvP.


Actually, the fact that condition and minion necro being frowned upon in majority, if not in all, of the PvE is enough reason for him to avoid them, as this is a PvE guide. However, I hear your concern, and believe that you are geniunly sincere about it. I really hope Anet does something about conditions being viable, as too much Zerker makes too little diversity.
  • 0

#41 Phenn

Phenn

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 805 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[THF]
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 04 January 2014 - 10:25 PM

Updated OP with a full description of ConD weapons/skills/builds, and added a thorough description of the Minions and Death Magic traitline.

Lemme know if I'm missing anything.
  • 0

#42 OChunx

OChunx

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 118 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:15 AM

Really great work on explaining the trait lines and everything; I think you added a lot more if I'm not mistaken.

The link to Lopez's site isn't working for me, it says that the domain's expired so you might want to remove that link for now if his site is really down. I think you might have accidentally linked the wrong build for Terrormancer as well, it's just linking to the Staff Dancer build a second time.

Last thing, I feel Lerre's guide is sort of outdated now. The Terror nerf really destroyed a lot of the incentive to stack condition duration. Focusing so much on condition duration over condition damage was already a very controversial topic even before the nerf, but 2 second fears combined with Terror made condition duration look viable again to some, but others still insisted that condition damage was the way to go. The damage nerf, I believe, was the final nail in the coffin for advocates of condition duration. Already, condition duration seemed not worth it; you gain 30% more condition duration but lose about 20% condition damage. Condition duration also hardly helped with conditions like poison, which were more or less maintained without the duration increase but could not stack in intensity, favoring the stacking of condition damage.

The build also required food to function properly. Even if the concept of trying to attain 100% condition duration were maintained, the build's equipment and rune recommendations are completely out of date now that Toxic Focusing Crystals are able to provide 10% condition duration and Superior Sigils of Malice can provide 6% condition duration. Furthermore, when you have extremely high condition damage but low duration, you benefit a lot more from more duration increases from food than if you have low damage but high duration. Let me give you a model that reflects situation we have here. Assume both have no consumables for now. Build 1 is representative of stacking condition damage (eg. undead runes). Build 2 is representative of Lerre's build.

Build 1: Condition damage dealt over 1 second is 150 and has 0% additional duration. Total damage: 150. DPS over 1 second: 150. DPS over 2 seconds: 150
Build 2: Condition damage dealt over 1 second is 100 but has 50% additional duration. Total damage: 150. DPS over 1 second: 100. DPS over 2 seconds: 150

Already, we can see that the trade off was not worth it. But this is even the ideal situation for condition duration where we assume that the condition ticks for the full amount of time and that is was not overridden by another condition applier, both situations of which give the advantage to stacking condition damage. I still want to illustrate my other point though; that condition duration consumables actually help the build that stacks condition damage more than the build that already stacks duration. Assume the consumable gives 4 condition damage and 40% duration (basically like a Koi Cake).

Build 1: Condition damage dealt over 1 second is 154 and has 40% additional duration. Total damage: 216. DPS over 1 second: 154. DPS over 2 seconds: 216.
Build 2: Condition damage dealt over 1 second is 104 but has 90% additional duration. Total damage: 198. DPS: over 1 second: 104. DPS over 2 seconds: 198.

Answers were obviously rounded. Build 1 saw an increase of 44% more damage. Build 2 only 32%. Do note however, build 2's DPS at 1 second increased more than build 1's, but that is to be expected and follows the same logic that shows that increases to condition duration helps those who stack condition damage more than those who stack duration: increases to condition damage helps those who stack duration more than those who stack damage. However, there doesn't exist any foods that substantially raise condition damage more than Koi Cakes or Toxic Focusing Crystals that also happen to raise duration by a ton. Thus, it is theoretically already more advantageous to stack condition damage first, and then add duration with foods later, given that you know nothing except for the fact that food can substantially raise condition duration, but cannot substantially raise condition damage.

Of course, these numbers are arbitrary and made up, and could easily have been manipulated to come to any conclusion. It is my belief, however, that this at least sort of models how condition damage and duration is in the game. The common belief is that you stack damage to increase immediate DPS, but condition duration to increase overall damage in the long run. However, the opportunity cost of stacking duration is often so great that you find that stacking damage just plain gives you more immediate DPS and long run damage.

I hope that wasn't confusing. My main point is that Lerre's guide is outdated and nerfed, and that 6x Runes of the Undead is the best option for condition builds and outdamages those that stack of condition duration for both theoretical and practical purposes. Lerre's build also relies on food to reach that 100% duration, but with the new content releases, you can stack 80% duration without having to use useless precision and power runes and sacrifice hundreds of points of condition damage.

As a side note, I also tried to do some rough calculations before and Runes of the Undead also win out against stacking bleed duration (2x centaur, 2x krait, 2x afflicted). Maybe duration stacking would be better if the tradeoff of condition damage for each percentage of duration wasn't so large.

Anyway, I'd say to go something like this. http://gw2skills.net...FRjVdDTHjIqGA-e

Feel free to point out if I did something wrong though. I make mistakes all the time and would actually love to see someone who is actually good with numbers to show once and for all how the damage works out.

Edited by OChunx, 05 January 2014 - 07:12 AM.

  • 1

#43 Pregnantman

Pregnantman

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 155 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[LAD]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:45 AM

-snip-


http://youtu.be/8QwiTyE5vqw

Nemesis has done an excellent job in duration vs damage. Your case stands still if the number of stacks of bleeds remain the same in either case; however the main point of stacking condition duration isn't merely altering the duration, it is stacking more bleeds. If we look at it this way, condition duration is actually superior as it provides more bleed stacks instead of increasing the damage of already existing bleeds. It is better to have 2 stacks of bleeds that do 100 dps each rather than having 1 stack that does 130 damage. Note that condition duration also helps conditionmancers to maintain their sustained AoE between epidemics, and increase the capability of whatever support conditions (cripple, weakness, chill, immobilize, fear etc.).

Note: I think this video is already posted in "New Necro" thread, but anyway. It seemed like the right place to post it.

Edit: On a further note, if you roll to be a conditionmancer, usually the first %80 condition duration comes without sacrifising anything important. 30 in Spite, Koi Cakes and Toxic Consumables barely demand any choice between other condition related setups, so it all comes to runes. From that point on, you can choose to take Hemophilia and have %133 bleed duration (the bleed that comes from scepter which consists nearly all of your bleeds), have %20 condition duration from runes but sacrifise whatever gain from a full condition rune setup to maximize all conditions or have 1 or 2 Giver's weapons to maximize condition duration instead of sacrifising rune slots, note that you still sacrifise some condition damage if you take Giver's, or not invest anything at all. The best choice seems like taking Hemophilia, however in that case you cant take Terror and Weakening Shroud together. But because Hemophilia can be reverted to Weakening Shroud OOC, you can take Hemophilia when you range and Weakening Shroud when you melee.

Looking at your setup, you really don't have to take Sigil of Corruption and Bursting together. You can have an extra dagger with Bursting sigil and wear it after you have all 25 stacks of Corruption, replacing the dagger with the Corruption sigil. You really don't want to drop Sigil of Earth on either weapon as extra stacks of bleed are invaluable and in staff you really won't stay long enough for the Sigil of Bursting to benefit but will for dropping avaliable marks only which are bound to proc Sigil of Earth. (I only went Corruption with staff to display maximum condition damage on link. Normally I would swap it with Earth.)

http://gw2skills.net...bY6YER1SBAzyK-e

Edited by Pregnantman, 05 January 2014 - 05:56 PM.

  • 0

#44 OChunx

OChunx

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 118 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:11 PM

Nemesis has done an excellent job in duration vs damage. Your case stands still if the number of stacks of bleeds remain the same in either case; however the main point of stacking condition duration isn't merely altering the duration, it is stacking more bleeds. If we look at it this way, condition duration is actually superior as it provides more bleed stacks instead of increasing the damage of already existing bleeds. It is better to have 2 stacks of bleeds that do 100 dps each rather than having 1 stack that does 130 damage. Note that condition duration also helps conditionmancers to maintain their sustained AoE between epidemics, and increase the capability of whatever support conditions (cripple, weakness, chill, immobilize, fear etc.).


First off, I really wouldn't consider Nemesis's build to be the best representation of a conditionmancer build. It's definitely a condition/support hybrid. Also, if I remember correctly, he stacks bleed duration and has no more condition duration than a setup with full Undead,

Alright, I wanted to try to settle this once and for all and so made a spreadsheet of my calculations with several different rune options here: https://docs.google....#38;output=html

I hope its easy to read. This is basically a damage calculation for the scepter's auto attack chain. Red bars represent an application of bleed, green bars poison, and orange bars fire. The total damage is the sum of all numbers within a 14 second time window. No consumables were used.

Important facts to keep in mind:
- Conditions all tic at the same time; the game runs on a timer and checks at certain time 1 second intervals what conditions are active, and tics for ALL active conditions at that time regardless of when they were applied prior to that check point.
- The in-game tool tips show durations rounded to the nearest quarter second, however, in actuality the game does not round your conditions
- Bleed stacks both duration and intensity, poison only stacks duration
- Lingering Curse functions weird. It simply straight up adds 2 seconds of duration to the bleeds from Blood Curse and Rending Curse, and 2 seconds to the poison from Putrid Curse. Source: http://wiki.guildwar...Lingering_Curse
- The game does round the amount of damage each tic of a condition does

Assumptions I made:
- Dhuumfire procs exactly once during the 14 second duration of the test. I think this is a pretty conservative estimate and probably will proc more than just one full duration, but since I don't know the chance for certain, I think one proc is a pretty reasonable estimate.
- The entire autoattack chain takes 3 seconds with each of the three component combo attacks needing 1 sec to go through its animations and cast times and stuff. Source of claim: http://wiki.guildwar...iki/Blood_Curse
- No damage is done by the condition until exactly 1 second after its initial application
- You aren't overriding your conditions and no one else is either
- The meatbag that you're attacking isn't dead before 14 seconds is up
- All Rabid gear with just one Superior Sigil of Bursting, no infusions
- Things that are common across all builds have no effect (e.g. attack rotations would not make a difference, base stats from gear similarities do not make a difference since they are constant in each case)

Methodology explanations:
- If a condition lasted an extra half second or something, for example, I accounted for that value by multiplying the damage of a single tic by that overflow duration (eg. .5 in this case), as it will add half a tic's worth of damage every application in the long run
- I did not account for Barbed Precision as I couldn't figure out what its true duration is. The wiki says 2 seconds at 0% condition duration (which does indeed seem to be the case in pvp), but in game the tooltip says 3.5 seconds at 30% duration. As I did not want to put in any false information (couldn't trust the tooltip because tooltips round when the game does not).
- I changed Lerre's rune recommendations to what I think is the most optimal given the new content additions, keeping his concept of hitting 100% condition duration with food
- No stacks of corruption, although I wouldn't think adding them would change the ultimate conclusion. I figured the superior sigil of bursting was an adequate estimation for the amount of additional condition damage you would have on average.

Possible Flaws that could change the results
- No consideration of Barbed Precision
- No consideration of Superior Sigil of Earth

So what conclusions can we make? First off, Lerre's build and runes that purely aim to maximize bleed duration just lose miserably in damage. The only two viable options are clearly 6x Runes of the Undead or 3x Afflicted and 3x Krait. So let's break down the positives and negatives for each one, as compared to the other.

3x Afflicted and 3x Krait
Pros:
- You do ~.2% more condition damage, given that no one overrides your bleeds and that the target lives for at least 12.6 seconds

Cons:
- You are more susceptible to getting your bleed stacks overridden by others, decreasing your damage
- You will do less damage if the target lives for less than 12.6 seconds

6x Runes of the Undead
Pros:
- You are less susceptible to getting your bleed stacks overridden by others
- You are the least possible susceptible to gimped damage if your target dies too fast
- You have more toughness and survivability than the other rune set

Cons:
- You will do about ~.2% less condition damage on a long living target

I'm also going to present the hypothesis here that 6x Runes of the Undead with Koi Cake and Toxic Focusing Crystal outdamages 3x Krait and 3x Afflicted with Koi Cake and Master Tuning Crystal in all cases. I'm fairly certain that this is true, but I don't have the time to test right now.

Important to note, taking into consideration Barbed Precision and the addition of a Superior Sigil of Earth would increase the damage gap of the two rune set-ups in favor of 3x Afflicted and 3x Krait (big "I THINK" here, haven't tested it yet). However, taking into consideration the direct damage that the scepter auto attack chain does lessens that gap in favor of Runes of the Undead (this I'm sure of). Dhuumfire procing more than once also tips the favor to Runes of the Undead (this I'm sure of). For simplicity's sake, let's just even give 3x Afflicted and 3x Krait the benefit of the doubt and round up its damage advantage to 1%, a very generous assumption and 5 times what the spreadsheet predicts it to be.

But what's the reality? In 99% of cases, Runes of the Undead will do more damage against trash mobs. It will always do more damage if you have anyone else stacking bleeds at all and it will (my hypothesis here) always do more damage with the correct consumables. 3x Afflicted and 3x Krait will do 1% more damage against bosses and veterans that live more than 12.6 seconds... and that's about it. Runes of the Undead even provide you with more survivability. While in theory, condition duration seems like it helps a lot, the numbers and options the game actually provides has the result such that the opportunity cost of stacking condition duration outweighs the benefits.

I do have to address my two flaws of this test though. I'm fairly certain that not considering Barbed Precision and Superior Sigil of Earth does not affect the conclusion that Runes of the Undead and 3x Afflicted and 3x Krait are better than all other options, only possibly affecting the difference between the two best set-ups.

Ultimately, it looks like while 3x Afflicted and 3x Krait are better in a minority of cases, Runes of the Undead are better in most cases. The discussion of "duration versus damage" means nothing without hard numbers; if you don't use numbers from the game, you can literally make up any arbitrary number to support your point of view. This really shouldn't even be a controversy anymore.

EDIT: I think I found the Barbed Precision problem. It seems that Hemophilia just adds a flat 1 second duration increase do it, instead of multiplying by 1.2. Or maybe I did something wrong. I'll try to update the spreadsheet later taking into consideration both Superior Sigil of Earth and Barbed Precision and revisit my conclusion. I hope it's at least established that only 6x Undead or 3x Afflicted and 3x Krait are the only viable options.

Looking at your setup, you really don't have to take Sigil of Corruption and Bursting together. You can have an extra dagger with Bursting sigil and wear it after you have all 25 stacks of Corruption, replacing the dagger with the Corruption sigil. You really don't want to drop Sigil of Earth on either weapon as extra stacks of bleed are invaluable and in staff you really won't stay long enough for the Sigil of Bursting to benefit but will for dropping avaliable marks only which are bound to proc Sigil of Earth. (I only went Corruption with staff to display maximum condition damage on link. Normally I would swap it with Earth.)

http://gw2skills.net...bY6YER1SBAzyK-e


C'mon man, don't need to be so picky :P . You suggest having a couple spare weapons to switch to after we stack 25 corruption stacks, but why just one weapon? Let's go all the way and make it 100% optimal. It would be to have two equipment sets like such:
Scepter: Superior Sigil of Corruption - Dagger: Superior Sigil of Corruption - Staff: Superior Sigil of Corruption

Once 25 Stacks are reached, switch to:
Scepter: Superior Sigil of Bursting - Dagger: Superior Sigil of Earth - Staff: Superior Sigil of Earth

You bring up a good point that I never even considered. I just took it for granted that Bursting probably destroys Earth in terms of damage, but maybe it doesn't. Would you say that Superior Sigil of Earth raises your DPS by more than 6%? If so, then I guess for a set-up in which you only have one set, it would look like:
http://gw2skills.net...DTHjIqWKAYWWB-e

EDIT: Quick Google search says Earth is better.

Edited by OChunx, 05 January 2014 - 10:54 PM.

  • 1

#45 OChunx

OChunx

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 118 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 06 January 2014 - 06:28 AM

https://docs.google....#38;output=html
https://docs.google....#38;output=html

Sorry for the double post, but I thought this was more appropriate separately placed plus my other post is already too long. Here's my updated spreadsheets which takes into account Barbed Precision (columns R through W). Barbed Precision was estimated by having the bleed apply 2 out of every 3 attacks, and then multiplying each tic by .54 to reflect the fact that only 54% of attacks are crits. The second one also takes into account Superior Sigil of Earth (estimated by multiplying crit chance by .6, and then having the bleed only apply every 2 seconds to reflect the 2 second cooldown). I used the same assumptions as before basically.

The first spreadsheet just shows that Runes of the Undead do more damage in all scenarios assuming both rune set ups are fully buffed with the right consumables. Thus, in 100% optimal conditions, Runes of the Undead are better. Sorry, I was too lazy to calculate the effect of Superior Sigil of Earth, the extra Dhuumfire, and direct damage in but it doesn't change the conclusion I reached.

The second spreadsheet tries to show which rune set is better with no consumables, with these conclusions:
Runes of the Undead do more damage if the fight lasts shorter than somewhere around 12.6 seconds.
Runes of the Afflicted and Krait will do more damage if the fight goes beyond that duration. How much more, I'm not sure, but at 14 sec, it does 1% more damage.

As an aside, if my calculations are correct, the auto attack of the scepter with traits proccing is around 1750-1950 DPS without consumables, depending mostly on when the Dhuumfire burst happens. I think we can just average it out to 1850 DPS.

Thus, all else considered, I stand by the fact that Runes of the Undead is the idea rune set-up.

EDIT: Forgot to calculate crit chance of direct damage into the sheets. Updated

Edited by OChunx, 07 January 2014 - 08:10 AM.

  • 0

#46 Pregnantman

Pregnantman

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 155 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[LAD]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 06 January 2014 - 08:03 AM

I didnt consider Nemesis' build is the best, just his approach to the condition damage vs duration dilemma was excellent. I quite agree with Runes of Undead as I proposed in my link (which is quite similar to your second build). You won't need any extra bleed duration with Koi Cakes, Toxic Consumables, 30 in Spite, Hemophilia and XI Curses. Also, your weapon proposal seems more optimal, as you will fill the stacks twice as fast and calm the fear of being downed vastly (Though getting the weapons is a pain.) Note that the benefit of Sigil of Earth and Barbed Precision directly increases with your crit chance, so you have to flash DS on cooldown if Fury isn't provided already. Also I would swap Hemophilia for Weakening Shroud on melee cases for extra bleed and weakness. That seems almost it.
Only one thing bothers me though. What is our aim in having Master of Corruption? Do we want to have high uptime on Weakness? Is 3 second cooldown reduce really worth it for Epidemic? Wouldn't the cooldown increase be redundant for Blood is Power if might is already provided? Basically, is Master of Corruption actually better than Terror?
  • 0

#47 UnDeadFun

UnDeadFun

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 65 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Server:Anvil Rock

Posted 06 January 2014 - 09:35 AM

Thanks Phenn for starting this thread and great job to everyone else contributing. I've seen a lot more little nercos running around and hopefully they find their way here. Thanks for keeping our class ... "Alive" :lol:
  • 0

#48 Pregnantman

Pregnantman

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 155 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[LAD]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 06 January 2014 - 02:57 PM

It may be offtopic, but I'll ask anyway. Does Well of Blood's area heal stack with other Necro(s)' Well of Blood's area heal? I think virtue passives of Guardians doesnt stack so this may not stack as well, but I'm not süre. If it does stack the skill may have more potentials than I thought/applied.
  • 0

#49 OChunx

OChunx

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 118 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 06 January 2014 - 07:45 PM

Also I would swap Hemophilia for Weakening Shroud on melee cases for extra bleed and weakness. That seems almost it.


I feel like Hemophilia gives you more total damage in the long run than Weakening Shroud. An added 20% from every autoattack, grasping dead, enfeebling blood, sigil of earth proc, and barbed precision proc quickly adds up (adds 1-2 seconds on each of those), and with Epidemic, single target bleeds turn into AoE ones. I think Hemophilia is thus better than 1 ~7.5 sec duration bleed every 10 seconds, and that's assuming you're in melee range and able to flash DS every 10 seconds.

Only one thing bothers me though. What is our aim in having Master of Corruption? Do we want to have high uptime on Weakness? Is 3 second cooldown reduce really worth it for Epidemic? Wouldn't the cooldown increase be redundant for Blood is Power if might is already provided? Basically, is Master of Corruption actually better than Terror?


I think Master of Corruption and Terror are easily interchangeable given your situation. For things like fractals and dungeons, I think Master of Corruption is easily better, assuming your party is relatively organized and constantly stacking and such. Like you mentioned, it helps have high weakness uptime, though i would disagree that the cooldown for Blood is Power is redundant. Unless you have at least 2 eles absolutely dedicated to might stacking, I find it's hard to maintain 25 stacks of might 100% of the time. Thus, there's at least some use in a faster recharging blood is power. The biggest reason, however, that I wouldn't take terror is because people really hate you for fearing away a huge cluster of monsters that a guardian worked hard to pull in or something. You stack not only so that everyone's buffs will affect each other and stuff, but also so that you can hit all monsters at once and stuff like hundred blades doesn't push mobs away. Your groups gonna get pissed pretty quickly if you keep AoE fearing everything away because you need to get damage done with terror. Doing so just decreases the DPS of the group overall, as then everyone else cant hit all the mobs at once, and then need to wait for them all to come back. A lot of fractal and dungeon bosses are immune to fear too, but I agree that for those that aren't, Terror provides a huge boost in damage. So for these instances, keep Master of Corruption most of the time and then just switch to Terror when fighting bosses that are affected by fear.

Terror also would be a better choice for open world roaming as fights won't usually be lasting long enough for Master of Corruption to be useful.

When farming events and stuff (such as Temple events with tons of mobs), I do find the decreased cooldown of Epidemic to help a lot in tagging more mobs, especially since it's such a frenzy with everyone trying to hit stuff.

In general, good players are always adapting skills and traits for what is optimal for the situation. You don't bring reflects if there's no projectiles, and you don't bring blinds when you're fighting dredge. Master of Corruption and Terror seem like the traits that you would change given the situation, as are other things like Spiteful Removal, Signet Mastery, Signet of Spite, Spectral Armor, or wells. I'm pretty confident that Hemophilia does more damage than Weakening Shroud, but I'm not 100% sure.

Edited by OChunx, 07 January 2014 - 12:30 AM.

  • 0

#50 Pregnantman

Pregnantman

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 155 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[LAD]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 07 January 2014 - 10:25 AM

On melee cases, Weakening Shroud ensures at least a stack of bleed (remember that it is likely to proc Sigil of Earth and/or Barbed Precision as you have also procced Furious Demise) to run AoE and weakens your foes. The number of stacks may be lower overall than what Hemophilia provides (I am not %100 sure either), but it is certainly competitive and adds up to our weakness application, which is perhaps one of the most important support a condition necro can bring. If you and your group melees, extra weakness can come in handy and you wouldn't be sacrifising significant damage by dropping Hemophilia either.

In case of Terror, you can negate the chance of shooing the targets away by chilling/crippling/immobilizing them. It may still yield somewhat clunky results, but I don't think there isn't much reason not to swap Master of Corruptions with Terror other than personal preference.

Edited by Pregnantman, 07 January 2014 - 10:30 AM.

  • 0

#51 Pregnantman

Pregnantman

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 155 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[LAD]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 07 January 2014 - 07:09 PM

I just discovered that Bone Fiend can keep perma burning (!) in the presence of a Fire Field. Since minions inherent condition damage + duration of the master and Bone Fiend does two projectile attacks every 2.5 seconds with each having a %100 chance to proc burning for 1 second (without any condition duration), wouldn't we have perma burning with just 30 points in Spite (aka %30 condition duration)?

Note: What I mean by discovered is realized. If this is something already known and used I'm sorry.

Edited by Pregnantman, 07 January 2014 - 07:18 PM.

  • 0

#52 ActualMalice

ActualMalice

    Pale Tree Seedling

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:49 AM

This is an awesomely amazing introduction to the necromancer, a genuinely helpful synopsis of traits and builds of the sort that is all too rare in these forums. You know how most forums feature three or four builds with their zealous advocates lurking in every thread? Your entry transcends all that, with honest commentary on the advantages and disadvantages of each general build. Instead of being totally dazed after reading of guardian builds for hours, I feel energized about my necromancer, thanks to you. You embody the true spirit of this game and establish the standard by which all other forums ought to be gauged.

Thank you.
  • 4

#53 OChunx

OChunx

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 118 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:56 AM

This is an awesomely amazing introduction to the necromancer, a genuinely helpful synopsis of traits and builds of the sort that is all too rare in these forums. You know how most forums feature three or four builds with their zealous advocates lurking in every thread? Your entry transcends all that, with honest commentary on the advantages and disadvantages of each general build. Instead of being totally dazed after reading of guardian builds for hours, I feel energized about my necromancer, thanks to you. You embody the true spirit of this game and establish the standard by which all other forums ought to be gauged.

Thank you.


Haha, I instantly knew that you were talking about the guardian forums... I think that the necromancer sub-forum here is awesome as well and Phenn and others are clearly super-knowledgeable about the class.

Another thing is that even though not everyone always agrees with one another, the most important thing is that in all discussion, a respect is maintained both for a person and for his or her ideas here. It honestly disgusts me, the level of uncalled for hostility and immaturity that is sometimes present in threads of other forums. But as long as necromancer remains a niche character for only those who truly love the class, I hope that this forum continues to benefit from the positive spirit.

Edited by OChunx, 14 January 2014 - 05:04 AM.

  • 4

#54 Brandon the Don

Brandon the Don

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 332 posts
  • Location:Somewhere
  • Profession:Warrior
  • Guild Tag:[TH]
  • Server:Gunnar’s Hold

Posted 14 January 2014 - 05:55 AM

Haha, I instantly knew that you were talking about the guardian forums... I think that the necromancer sub-forum here is awesome as well and Phenn and others are clearly super-knowledgeable about the class.

Another thing is that even though not everyone always agrees with one another, the most important thing is that in all discussion, a respect is maintained both for a person and for his or her ideas here. It honestly disgusts me, the level of uncalled for hostility and immaturity that is sometimes present in threads of other forums. But as long as necromancer remains a niche character for only those who truly love the class, I hope that this forum continues to benefit from the positive spirit.


Hehehe, something I noticed as well... I think its mostly due to many of the necromancer crowd realizing the flaws within the class in PvE, so we try to do our best to search for the "most viable option", rather than saying "you have to follow this otherwise you are bad"... That leaves us with a lot of options to play around with... Just wait untill the day someone declares that the Necro has one build that overshadows other builds/classes - you'll get similar threads then ;)

Though I sometimes may sound rude, I really don't mean it in any way - sadly, that is just my way with words :P
  • 1

#55 Pregnantman

Pregnantman

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 155 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[LAD]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 14 January 2014 - 07:20 AM

Funny how necromancers who are sold as sinister, unholy and unorthodox maintain optimism and mutual respect much better than Guardians who are supposedly honorable, charming, and beacons of light :)

Edit: It seems Brandon's build thread has become popular, dont you think Phenn? Maybe you could include them in here?

Edited by Pregnantman, 14 January 2014 - 07:53 AM.

  • 1

#56 Phenn

Phenn

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 805 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[THF]
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:00 PM

This is an awesomely amazing introduction to the necromancer, a genuinely helpful synopsis of traits and builds of the sort that is all too rare in these forums. You know how most forums feature three or four builds with their zealous advocates lurking in every thread? Your entry transcends all that, with honest commentary on the advantages and disadvantages of each general build. Instead of being totally dazed after reading of guardian builds for hours, I feel energized about my necromancer, thanks to you. You embody the true spirit of this game and establish the standard by which all other forums ought to be gauged.

Thank you.


Flattered, for sure, but the truth of it the guys below pointed out: The Necro community is composed of people who simply like the Necro and want to play the class because they enjoy it. If I embody the spirit of the game in my guide, it is because I've interacted with guys like those below. It's as much their guide as it is mine.

Haha, I instantly knew that you were talking about the guardian forums... I think that the necromancer sub-forum here is awesome as well and Phenn and others are clearly super-knowledgeable about the class.

Another thing is that even though not everyone always agrees with one another, the most important thing is that in all discussion, a respect is maintained both for a person and for his or her ideas here. It honestly disgusts me, the level of uncalled for hostility and immaturity that is sometimes present in threads of other forums. But as long as necromancer remains a niche character for only those who truly love the class, I hope that this forum continues to benefit from the positive spirit.


I hope so, too. And it's part of why I'm truly okay with the Necro staying "sub-par" for a while. Fixed would be nice, but I like having a class where we have to work together as a community to make it "work."

Hehehe, something I noticed as well... I think its mostly due to many of the necromancer crowd realizing the flaws within the class in PvE, so we try to do our best to search for the "most viable option", rather than saying "you have to follow this otherwise you are bad"... That leaves us with a lot of options to play around with... Just wait untill the day someone declares that the Necro has one build that overshadows other builds/classes - you'll get similar threads then ;)

Though I sometimes may sound rude, I really don't mean it in any way - sadly, that is just my way with words :P


And this is essentially my thinking, too. So much what's wonderful about the Necro community is our persistence in light of a broken class. Even while we're getting "fixed" slowly, we still have to overcome some significant handicaps. Makes it worth the effort, though, when you do.

Funny how necromancers who are sold as sinister, unholy and unorthodox maintain optimism and mutual respect much better than Guardians who are supposedly honorable, charming, and beacons of light :)

Edit: It seems Brandon's build thread has become popular, dont you think Phenn? Maybe you could include them in here?


Funny indeed. And yeah--I'll add the guide shortly.
  • 1

#57 Epixors

Epixors

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 401 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[LSL]
  • Server:Seafarer’s Rest

Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:10 PM

This is an awesomely amazing introduction to the necromancer, a genuinely helpful synopsis of traits and builds of the sort that is all too rare in these forums. You know how most forums feature three or four builds with their zealous advocates lurking in every thread? Your entry transcends all that, with honest commentary on the advantages and disadvantages of each general build. Instead of being totally dazed after reading of guardian builds for hours, I feel energized about my necromancer, thanks to you. You embody the true spirit of this game and establish the standard by which all other forums ought to be gauged.

Thank you.


It's because sadly the Guardian sub-forum suffers from people that have absolutely no clue while the Necromancer sub-forum is mostly populated with fans of the class that are trying to make the best out of it. I have to play the "zealous advocate" role in some topics, even if I don't want to, so as to make sure people don't end up with terrible information (also the toxic topics you may have read, well, the authors were just terrible people).

It's true that this thread is very will written and objective and Phenn clearly has a good view on the game, though it could use some more math :3 (just kidding, I know Phenn doesn't enjoy dem maths that much)

TL;DR: Don't bash on us Guardians, we just suffer from evil posters D:
  • 1

#58 Phenn

Phenn

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 805 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[THF]
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:17 PM

It's true that this thread is very will written and objective and Phenn clearly has a good view on the game, though it could use some more math :3 (just kidding, I know Phenn doesn't enjoy dem maths that much)


Dude, any maths you wanna bring, I'll take. So much of my thoughts/comments/particular suggestions come out of pure play-time experience. But sometimes what I THINK is the case isn't always the case. :P
  • 0

#59 Epixors

Epixors

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 401 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[LSL]
  • Server:Seafarer’s Rest

Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:34 PM

Dude, any maths you wanna bring, I'll take. So much of my thoughts/comments/particular suggestions come out of pure play-time experience. But sometimes what I THINK is the case isn't always the case. :P


Well I don't think I'll be throwing any random calculations your way but if you want to know anything/need a spreadsheet for something just hit me up in a PM or anything.

Or at the regular place (side-tracking Chase's thief thread)
  • 2

#60 Pregnantman

Pregnantman

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 155 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[LAD]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:56 PM

I cant help but to smile every time I see a moderator lock a thread in Guardian forums out of "over-flaming". Yes its cruel and childish for me to be happy about it, and realize your problem about people, but the necromancer inside me is just screaming "Suck at it!" to the ideal world where Guardians shine bright. If I started the game as a mesmer or something, perhaps I could feel for you guys more :P

Edit: Joking of course, dont throw stones at me.

Edited by Pregnantman, 14 January 2014 - 08:57 PM.

  • 0





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users