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Dev's Can't Complete Temples Due to Bugs


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#1 El Duderino

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 05:09 PM

I've heard a lot of people say that most of the bugs in this game have been fixed. To that I say:

https://forum-en.gui...es-and-they-bug

Quote

http://www.twitch.tv...rs2/b/480007149

Group of developers try to stream Temple of Lyssa, and it bugs 8 minutes in. After 5 minutes of trying to un-break it, they give up. They then try to do Temple of Grenth, and it bugs too.
Pretty embarrassing, but hopefully it gets them to fix these events after a year. All of the temple events still regularly bug.


#2 Moharis Frostreign

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 06:22 PM

I've had the agonizing experience of watching someone live stream the beta of a game I developed. It was tough seeing people discover bugs and glitches in systems that I spent hundreds of hours completing. I can only imagine how the Anet staff here felt; I'm sure it wasn't a pleasant experience. Maybe it opens their eyes to the world polishing that needs their desperate attention.

That said, still pretty funny.

#3 Exo Dyo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 06:25 PM

I will go to hell for laughing at this.

#4 Illein

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 06:25 PM

Knowing how toxic and vile Twitch channel chats usually are, I am pretty glad I wasn't in that one when it blew up.

Makes me feel terrible for those Devs who had to sit there and take the abuse, but then - those Temples have been bugged from Day 1 and they really only have themselves to blame.

#5 MazingerZ

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:52 PM

Oh, to get the chat log on that.

Also, enjoying the fact that it got moved to Linksville, when its a Twitch link... but it's GW2's official Twitch page.  They're just burying the bodies, as usual.

Edited by MazingerZ, 19 November 2013 - 09:55 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#6 nerfandderf

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:58 PM

Really sad to see. That stuff has been reported many many times and they shrug it off.
The same thing as hugh getting caught glitching in WvW to only say he now understands how it can be done. Not that the videos of everyone doing it or it being reported every 20 mins had any veracity.
I believe that glitching into towers still isnt fixed.

Sadly again they were mocked hard on the open forums before a mod cleaned it up a bit.
What did they think because they are the devs it would work for them? This has gone on since the beginning and how many times were we told they were fixed? In the end people just guested on working servers - why cant they or heaven forbid do a restart and give it a good one two.

Nope their condescending attitude caught up to them on this on and they got hammered. maybe just maybe a little egg on the face will change their demeanor, Who am I kidding this is anet baby. But so damn funny.

#7 ilr

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:44 PM

AAAAHHHHH HAAAA HAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!


Oh god... I apologize instantly to the Mods here for the caps above, but this is too priceless for me.  I was on a non-stop crusade to try and get the Dev's attentions back on Temples and how bugged they were becoming with all these rushed updates that broke everything else.  They ignored me and others like "GuildWarsChamp" constantly.  I even starting PM'ing some of them in QA like that Josh guy, and was still being completely ignored.  Eventually I just gave up.

To see this inevitable event play out in real time live.... just gives me an ASCENDED tier level of Schadenfreuden right now.
And to be honest, if I sunk 4 straight months into this effort, yeah I think I've earned the right to be smug about it.

#8 Baldur The Bold

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:52 PM

Anet has a image that they project which is that is their game is just sooooo awesome and bug free that EVERYONE MUST play GW2!! Performance issues?? What ever do you mean?? Bugs??? We have very little bugs!!!?Negative Forum Comments, those are LIES and MUST be deleted!!!!

Anet is not the same as it was when GW1 was released. My faith in the direction this game is going is pretty much completely lost. There are bugs since beta still in the game.

Alot of people, including myself are very close are saying ♥♥♥♥ Anet and uninstalling.

Edited by Baldur The Bold, 19 November 2013 - 10:53 PM.


#9 Bryant Again

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:00 AM

This makes me sad :(

#10 Daesu

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 03:30 AM

The best way to report a bug to a dev, is to let him see it for himself.  Hope he has his debugger opened as he is playing the game. :)

Edited by Daesu, 20 November 2013 - 03:32 AM.


#11 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 06:43 AM

View PostDaesu, on 20 November 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

The best way to report a bug to a dev, is to let him see it for himself.  Hope he has his debugger opened as he is playing the game. :)
Indeed!  How often I've not returned a bug report, simply because I cannot reproduce it.  It's very easy to write something down with the final conclusion: it doesn't work.  But it's very difficult to write something down to the smallest detail which you often need to reproduce a bug.

#12 nerfandderf

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 12:14 PM

View PostDaesu, on 20 November 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

The best way to report a bug to a dev, is to let him see it for himself.  Hope he has his debugger opened as he is playing the game. :)

are you kidding? (Not against you or anything just that they seem so unaware of anything.)
hugh the WvW guy glitched into the tower 5 months ago. It was all over the forum - because someone took pics. And of course he comes out saying that they couldnt reproduce it ect. Then gets caught glitching - makes some pr and says he can now fix it.
(after detailed reports every 20 mins and daily utube vids sent in)

UM still isnt fixed - but hey new PVE content in a week ------->shiney!

I did forget there was a post asking about an update on it guess what? ya you got it.

Edited by nerfandderf, 20 November 2013 - 12:28 PM.


#13 Daesu

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:40 PM

View Postnerfandderf, on 20 November 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:



are you kidding? (Not against you or anything just that they seem so unaware of anything.)
hugh the WvW guy glitched into the tower 5 months ago. It was all over the forum - because someone took pics. And of course he comes out saying that they couldnt reproduce it ect. Then gets caught glitching - makes some pr and says he can now fix it.
(after detailed reports every 20 mins and daily utube vids sent in)

UM still isnt fixed - but hey new PVE content in a week ------->shiney!

I did forget there was a post asking about an update on it guess what? ya you got it.

In that case I would say that the tester's job is done.  If the bug is reproduced to the point that it also happens in front of the dev on his own machine, giving him ample opportunities for him to launch his debugger or whatever tools he need to debug it, then the tester's job is done.

I am not blaming any dev to be incompetent, for all we know it could be a huge design flaw that is really tough to fix.  But at least that should give them enough information to reproduce the bug and understand why it happens.

Sometimes devs would acknowledge that the bug exists, understand it, but chose not to fix it for various reasons.  Perhaps the bug doesn't reproduce often enough and fixing it would involve changing huge sections of code that may destabilize the build?  They may also decide to postpone fixing it until they work on the expansion for example.

Edited by Daesu, 20 November 2013 - 05:45 PM.


#14 Elcee

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:26 PM

View PostMoharis Frostreign, on 19 November 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

I've had the agonizing experience of watching someone live stream the beta of a game I developed. It was tough seeing people discover bugs and glitches in systems that I spent hundreds of hours completing. I can only imagine how the Anet staff here felt; I'm sure it wasn't a pleasant experience. Maybe it opens their eyes to the world polishing that needs their desperate attention.

That said, still pretty funny.

I've had people play and have unpleasant experience with some of my creations in their early stages as well and I agree, it's painful. But this the release version of game that was sold as being released "when it's done". We're at what, 14-15 months and there's still loads of bugs and "polish" updates? I'm sorry, that's not "polish", that's "we released a broken product".

Edited by Elcee, 20 November 2013 - 09:29 PM.


#15 Red Intensity

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 02:17 AM

The devs have enough egg on their face to make a quiche. I think any derision that they've been given since the video launched is well justified.

View PostDaesu, on 20 November 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

The best way to report a bug to a dev, is to let him see it for himself.  Hope he has his debugger opened as he is playing the game. :)
At this point, it seems to be the only way to get them to notice anything.

#16 Jentari

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:59 AM

I understand that bugs will turn up, but when they effect the ability to play the game (like the temples bugging out), then those need to be fixed.  Not wait a year to do anything.

I also understand that some bugs may only happen on that very rare circumstance.  They may cause that 1 player or that group to not be able to do something, but that bug might not happen again for years as it took a very weird group of circumstances to happen in order for it to appear.  These bugs I can see taking a long time to fix as they are very rare.

But the bugs like the temples have, have been occurring for a year now and they have been reported.  These are not rare bugs, these are common, these are things that the developers should be paying attention to and fixing.  Maybe instead of trying to crank out a living story every two weeks they should devote some more bodies to trying to fix these bugs that are game stopping and that have been around basically since the game started.

#17 El Duderino

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 02:52 PM

I sometimes wonder if the game engine, being modified from GW1, isn't really the best platform for the massive changes made for this kind of game. As in, it is more complicated than it needs to be which leads to poor debugging efforts.

#18 MisterJaguar25

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 03:21 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 21 November 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

I sometimes wonder if the game engine, being modified from GW1, isn't really the best platform for the massive changes made for this kind of game. As in, it is more complicated than it needs to be which leads to poor debugging efforts.

Well if there using an engine from 2005 I'm not really surprised it's having issues.

#19 El Duderino

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 03:54 PM

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 21 November 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Well if there using an engine from 2005 I'm not really surprised it's having issues.

I'm not an expert, but I heard that it is modified from the original. Keep in mind too that the original game was meant for 8 member party instances and not a giant persistent world. But, yes, I agree.

#20 Robsy128

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 09:00 PM

A lot of game engines are just improved versions of the older ones. Look at the COD engine - they claim it's brand new in Ghosts but it's built from the one that was used in the previous games. It's the same with CryEngine, UDK, Unity, etc.

Back on topic: maybe they'll get so frustrated playing the game like we have, they'll actually decide to fix it.

#21 El Duderino

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 09:31 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 21 November 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

A lot of game engines are just improved versions of the older ones. Look at the COD engine - they claim it's brand new in Ghosts but it's built from the one that was used in the previous games. It's the same with CryEngine, UDK, Unity, etc.

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is, but CoD Ghosts isn't quite unlike MW2. GW2 is quite different than GW1 in all aspects technologically. Your post does not invalidate the point that the problem of debugging could be based on the attempt to change the engine. We already know that there are HUGE problems with asset creation in this game that simply don't exist in other games because of the engine.

#22 Robsy128

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:30 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 21 November 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is, but CoD Ghosts isn't quite unlike MW2. GW2 is quite different than GW1 in all aspects technologically. Your post does not invalidate the point that the problem of debugging could be based on the attempt to change the engine. We already know that there are HUGE problems with asset creation in this game that simply don't exist in other games because of the engine.

I was simply pointing out that a lot of games use ancient engines - they've just been tweaked and prodded for the newer games. Arenanet are just using an updated version of their engine like most game companies do.

#23 El Duderino

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:57 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 21 November 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

I was simply pointing out that a lot of games use ancient engines - they've just been tweaked and prodded for the newer games. Arenanet are just using an updated version of their engine like most game companies do.

What's the point though? Just to say that other companies use old modified engines? Sweet. Now, moving back to GW2 discussion...

#24 ilr

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:59 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 21 November 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'm not an expert, but I heard that it is modified from the original. Keep in mind too that the original game was meant for 8 member party instances and not a giant persistent world. But, yes, I agree.
These events that are breaking... I could make more advanced versions of in StarCraft1 editor and they'd break a lot less often.  It's not the timestamp on the technology b/c atleast 5 of these events WERE working consistently before they started the 2-week Scarlet/Fluff schedule

Edited by ilr, 22 November 2013 - 12:02 AM.


#25 El Duderino

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 12:05 AM

View Postilr, on 21 November 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:


These events that are breaking... I could make more advanced versions of in StarCraft1 editor and they'd break a lot less often.  It's not the timestamp on the technology b/c atleast 5 of these events WERE working consistently before they started the 2-week Scarlet/Fluff schedule

I don't think it is a time stamp thing, I think it is a engine that was made for one type of technology being ported to try and support another type of technology altogether. We know that it doesn't do some things as well already, like making new assets so Charr can sit in chairs, so it seems reasonable that it may not be good at doing things like living story updates.

#26 Robsy128

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 06:22 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 21 November 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

What's the point though? Just to say that other companies use old modified engines? Sweet. Now, moving back to GW2 discussion...

No, it was to point out that current generation games can be built on older engines that have been tweaked with very little issue. I wouldn't say it's the engine that's the problem. I would say that they have so much going on in the maps, it's going to take a while to sift through each and every bit of code to find out what is causing the problem. Then again, it could be something as simple as resetting the server since other maps do work.

I also can't see how asset creation for a game engine prevents charr sitting in chairs, but that's off-topic and besides the point.

#27 El Duderino

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 06:45 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 22 November 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

No, it was to point out that current generation games can be built on older engines that have been tweaked with very little issue. I wouldn't say it's the engine that's the problem. I would say that they have so much going on in the maps, it's going to take a while to sift through each and every bit of code to find out what is causing the problem. Then again, it could be something as simple as resetting the server since other maps do work.

I also can't see how asset creation for a game engine prevents charr sitting in chairs, but that's off-topic and besides the point.

Source: http://www.usgamer.n...gons-and-chairs

Quote

One of the great challenges that we faced with chairs, and this is kind of ironic, is that because we put in five different races of differing heights into the game, we found we had to make every chair uniform and have everyone always sit on them the exact same way or build an entire system that recognizes the height of the chair and appropriately animates your character."

"We kind of forced ourselves into a corner where we either go back and re-art every chair in the game, or we build this system for sitting. I think in the grand scheme of things, given all the other projects, we have going on, sitting, as important as it is, is not something we're currently working on."

Basically, the engine isn't designed for different races sitting in chairs. So, they would have to go back and change the assets for each race to make sitting viable. So, I guess I was wrong, it's not asset creation that is a problem (although I swore that Lordkrall did talk about problems like that once), it is a problem with the engine not being able to deal with different races - because it was never intended to do so originally.

Now, ask yourself this, if it has problems with races, couldn't it stand to reason that there are problems with other parts of the engine that relate to new things that GW2 does over GW1?

We know that GW1 didn't have a Y-axis, didn't have jumping, had invisible walls, had 8 man max instances, didn't have respawning, didn't have a persistent world, etc, etc.

What game engines can you name in your example that did all that? How many of these engines were changed by people other than the people who created it and then used for a game with completely different technological needs?

It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the complexity in changes to the previous engine, along with constant changing to the game, is the reason for these bugs that seem impossible to fix or even replicate on a regular basis.

Edited by El Duderino, 22 November 2013 - 06:47 PM.


#28 Robsy128

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 07:23 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 22 November 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

Source: http://www.usgamer.n...gons-and-chairs



Basically, the engine isn't designed for different races sitting in chairs. So, they would have to go back and change the assets for each race to make sitting viable. So, I guess I was wrong, it's not asset creation that is a problem (although I swore that Lordkrall did talk about problems like that once), it is a problem with the engine not being able to deal with different races - because it was never intended to do so originally.

Now, ask yourself this, if it has problems with races, couldn't it stand to reason that there are problems with other parts of the engine that relate to new things that GW2 does over GW1?

We know that GW1 didn't have a Y-axis, didn't have jumping, had invisible walls, had 8 man max instances, didn't have respawning, didn't have a persistent world, etc, etc.

What game engines can you name in your example that did all that? How many of these engines were changed by people other than the people who created it and then used for a game with completely different technological needs?

It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the complexity in changes to the previous engine, along with constant changing to the game, is the reason for these bugs that seem impossible to fix or even replicate on a regular basis.

The chair thing isn't an engine flaw. He basically said that they made races with different heights and different sizes and therefore had issues with making them sit properly on chairs they had already created. It's a design flaw more than anything.

I do agree that all engines, not just the one Arenanet uses, has issues when it's merely been tweaked and upgraded rather than fully reworked. Now to get a z axis into the game engine alone is a lot of tweaking, but they should have completely revamped it. Unfortunately, this cannot always be done due to time limits and budgets, so they had to make do with what they were given.

It's the same with fixing these bugs - it would be great to fix these bugs, but unfortunately it's not up to the programmers to say: 'today I'm going to be fixing every bug in the game and make everyone happy!' Usually management assigns them tasks to complete and more often than not, these bugs are merely ignored by them so they can push out more content and make more money. If it's anybody's fault, it would be the management - not the programmers.

#29 El Duderino

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 22 November 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

It's the same with fixing these bugs - it would be great to fix these bugs, but unfortunately it's not up to the programmers to say: 'today I'm going to be fixing every bug in the game and make everyone happy!' Usually management assigns them tasks to complete and more often than not, these bugs are merely ignored by them so they can push out more content and make more money. If it's anybody's fault, it would be the management - not the programmers.

The managers and the programmers comprise ANet as a company, and as a company, ANet has not been good at fixing bugs and flaws. The best games are well polished games, and GW2 is not well polished in a lot of areas.

#30 Robsy128

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:06 PM

Ironically, it's still rated as one of the most polished MMOs haha.




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