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Fractals: The source of the problem


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#1 Arkham Creed

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:11 PM

Well after looking over these new previews for the next update I found myself immensely underwhelmed, and even bordering on offended. This is primarily because I don’t play Fractals, and dislike getting an update that offers non-fractal players nothing to do with their time. And yes; I understand how hypocritical that is given the small number of fractals related updates verses the large number of pure PvE open world/dungeon updates.

So I set out to logically think my way out of that contradiction, but found it near impossible to do for one reason; Fractals of the Mists ruined Guild Wars 2.

Let me just slip into my flame shield before I explain that. There we are….alright. So what possible reason could I have for making that claim? Well look at what this game mode is. By its very nature Fractals of the Mists is entirely focused on –its “core engagement” to the player- is what is often considered the worst part of traditional MMO endgame, even by players who prefer traditional MMO endgame; repetition. This is literally the dull and repetitive “endgame” content that you repeat ad nauseam while waiting for new content and grinding out better equipment with low drop rates. That is what Fractals is. Period. You go in and repeat a random selection of the same few dungeon rooms over and over again while hoping for a lucky drop.

But that isn’t all. As pathetic as it is that could be forgiven because it does, to an extent, offer the “hardcore” players some place where they can get something vaguely reminiscent of a challenge. But sadly the flaws don’t end there. Fractals was designed and implemented as a way of facilitating that one thing nearly everyone who Arena Net lured in with their early marketing didn’t want; statistical gear progression. Not only was Ascended gear initially limited to Fractals (as low probability drops) but Fractals also demanded that progression through the agony system. It was, in short, traditional MMO endgame forced onto the GW2 community.

True or not the prevailing perception to this day is that if you didn’t have the best gear you would be destroyed in WvW and couldn’t get into a group for PvE. And the only way to get the best gear was Fractals. And you needed better gear to reach the higher level Fractals so you had better odds of getting the best gear. It was the same treadmill, the same endless cycle, and the same plague that spread out and infected other game modes and playstyles. Were it not for Fractals I wouldn’t have to grind dailies and monthlies for a month or more just to get a damned amulet I don’t want only to be told I still can’t PUG because I don’t have the rings that go with it. So you’ll forgive me for being a tad bitter.

But wait; there’s more!
  • Fractals segregates the overall community (Those who play fractals get the best gear faster and often won’t play with people do lack that gear).
  • Fractals segregates its own community (Why party up for level 2 fractals when you can get better drop rates in level 40?)
  • Fractals facilitates the necessity of gem-store consumables and “pay-to-win” attitudes (You need instant repair cans so you don’t slow down the party or worse; cause a wipe due to broken gear).
  • Fractals invalidates crafting (not only could you not craft Ascended items for a long time, you still can’t currently trade these items. This makes Fractals the only place to reliably obtain Ascended items if you don’t or can’t afford to craft items. This is severely detrimental to the already struggling crafting community).
So there you have it. All this combined and it is pretty clear that Fractals of the Mists is the singular embodiment of everything that went wrong with Guild Wars 2. You may begin flaming me now, just don’t expect me to pay attention.

Edited by Arkham Creed, 19 November 2013 - 07:12 PM.


#2 El Duderino

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:17 PM

When a casually designed game starts trying to keep hardcore players around, there will be a clear conflict of interest. Another example of how ANet's attempt to appease everyone has blinded them from their original vision and ultimately failed the gaming community that deserved the game that they wanted to make when they released their manifesto.

#3 Thaddeuz

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:20 PM

I understand your point of view and I'll will not say that its wrong because it would be lie. Your right for you and a unknown numbers of people (people that either like or hate fractal). But its only one point of view and I'll explain mine.

When fractal was introduce i started to do some run with my friends. We finally end up doing about 8 of them in the first month. It was fun, challenging, even at low level, because it was new and we add to figure it out by our own. But the game was new and we had a lot of thing to try and do so we didn't went more into fractal than that. But one of my other friend dragged me into fractal again a bit latter and we found a new player that join us in what would eventually became a challenge to reach level 80 in fractal.  We didn't reached our guild in the end, because Anet stopped the progression to level 50 and we were at level 67 (if i remember correctly). We did continue a bid and reached level 72 with help of another guildmate.  The important point is why we did fractal back then. At this point I had a long a interesting conversation with Raspberry Jam in this very forum over the reason for doing fractal. For me and my friend it was at all about the reward. It was nice to get 20 Slot bags, I crafted a shiny back item for my main, I got ascended ring for all my 6 first characters. But by the time i had done all of this I was only level 40 and continued to do fractal. Now i have plenty of unused rings and fractal relic in my bank/wallet and don't really have any use for them. You point out that we do repetitive content in order to get a change for rare loot like the worst part of a MMO. I get that and hate the principle (its what get me out of SWTOR and WoW in the first place). The problem is that i do Fractal for the reward. I do them because i enjoy doing them. Even after all this and the numerous time i played through them i still like most of them. I'm not a fan of underwater, I don't mind Swamp but don't enjoy it either. But the Shaman Fractal is still the best boss fight of the game for me and you could ask my guildmates I shout YAY everytime we got it in high level.

You said that it segregate the community between those who play it or don't. Well exempt for rings and back item, fractal DON'T help you to get your stuff faster. I get my Amulet with laurel and my Earing with guild commendation. Your point stay correct, we do get rings and back item faster and cheaper. But if i don't like doing daily, then you have your stuff faster than me and I'm Angry at that. And if I don't like big guild which mean i can't really do guild challenge, then you can have other stuff faster than me. Its been 6 months and more since laurel was introduce. By this time people should have enough Laurel to get fully gear 2 characters with ascended trinkets. And it should be easy for someone casual to get a full set of ascended trinket for their only character they have. For the point of people not wanting to play with those who don't have the gear I call bullshit.  Level between 10 to 19 are for gearing up, don't complain if you go in fractal 26-30 with no AR and people want to kick you out. We farmed level 10-19 a lot more than new player to fractal back in the days so shouldn't they do a little effort to gear at least to get a minimum of AR before going into higher fractal.

I am level 72 and still play some level 10 and level 26. Why? Because I like to play with guild mate and show them fractal. I helped about 10 of my guildmates to level up and now they are playing level 30+ with us. If i had never done that I would be now the only one of the guild at this level, but now we are more than ten.

I used 2 instant repairs in all my Fractals. Repair before and if the party have some problem then you can wait 2min (I usually take this time to pee and take something to drink) while they all wp to Lion Arch to repair. This is a made out problem that don't even exist. If you want to buy instant repairs do as you want, but I was never forced to used any gem-store item in fractal EVER.

Crafting is bad because of Fractal? What about Dailies? What about guild commendation? Fractal only invalidate ascended back item crafting, because this mystic forge crafting is just way too expensive for nothing. About ascended weapons, well I still prefer to craft my weapons (got one for now) and a drop in fractal would only be a bonus.

#4 AKGeo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:25 PM

View PostArkham Creed, on 19 November 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

But wait; there’s more!
  • Fractals segregates the overall community (Those who play fractals get the best gear faster and often won’t play with people do lack that gear).
  • Fractals segregates its own community (Why party up for level 2 fractals when you can get better drop rates in level 40?)
  • Fractals facilitates the necessity of gem-store consumables and “pay-to-win” attitudes (You need instant repair cans so you don’t slow down the party or worse; cause a wipe due to broken gear).
  • Fractals invalidates crafting (not only could you not craft Ascended items for a long time, you still can’t currently trade these items. This makes Fractals the only place to reliably obtain Ascended items if you don’t or can’t afford to craft items. This is severely detrimental to the already struggling crafting community).
So there you have it. All this combined and it is pretty clear that Fractals of the Mists is the singular embodiment of everything that went wrong with Guild Wars 2. You may begin flaming me now, just don’t expect me to pay attention.

I didn't read your wall of text just yet, just your bullet points. And they're all wrong. I'll tell you why.

1: The amount of time fractals takes to achieve an ascended item is exorbitant. 10 runs at least per character to even get a sniff at an ascended ring. I've done dozens of runs since the introduction of ascended weapon boxes and have yet to receive one. And regular rewards are as stale as they have been for the last year. I still only do it for the skins, and all I've gotten on that front are two scepters.

2: I don't want people who have to only do a level 2 to be in my level 40. I want experienced people in my group. If I want to do a low level, I'll do a low level to show people the ropes. But new fractalers should go through the same painful experiences the rest of us have in order to earn their place in higher levels. None of this trophy-for-trying BS.

3: The only repair canisters I've ever used in fractals were because I went in unknowingly with already-damaged armor. I've done many a higher-level run without incurring any damaged armor at all, and I'm not alone. It doesn't take many wipes for a skilled party to get through a single fractal run. I suggest upping your level of skill instead of relying on gem store items to carry you through. It may sound harsh, but it's the truth. I'm not the most skilled fractal runner out there. I'm happy admitting that I'm probably around the middle of the road in that aspect. So instead of calling me elitist and brushing off my constructive criticism like I'm sure you will, try evaluating your personal skill level and those of the people you party up with, and improve on it. You'll have a much better time of things.

4: Reliably obtain ascended items. Right. You can get rings reliably. Everything else, not so much. I can farm up the gold to buy items needed for ascended crafting much faster and easier by running regular dungeons. And I've been doing just that. Crafting ascended weapons may be expensive, but it's faster and much more reliable than hoping for RNG to smile upon you.

I'll try to get to the rest of your post later, but probably not.

Edited by AKGeo, 19 November 2013 - 08:28 PM.


#5 Baldur The Bold

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:28 PM

Glad you like fractals! This update is entirely for your sub community then!
The people that don't like fractals are completely left out, guess we wait again for another 3 week. More time gating content :P

#6 AKGeo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:31 PM

View PostBaldur The Bold, on 19 November 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Glad you like fractals! This update is entirely for your sub community then!
The people that don't like fractals are completely left out, guess we wait again for another 3 week. More time gating content :P

Just like people who played primarily or exclusively fractals have been stuffed by EVERY update for a year. Thanks for playing.

#7 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:31 PM

Quote

Fractals facilitates the necessity of gem-store consumables and “pay-to-win” attitudes (You need instant repair cans so you don’t slow down the party or worse; cause a wipe due to broken gear).
Wrong. If you damage your armor, you can simply go back to character selection screen, select your caharcter again, port to LA, fix armor, and go back in FOTM.

Personally, FOTM for me is the best update GW2 has released so far, I'm quite happy about this one too, however I dislike the reset.

#8 AKGeo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:41 PM

OH, and I forgot to mention that in order for fractalers to reach higher levels of their preferred game mode, they're forced to join large guilds in order to participate in frustrating guild content such as rushes, puzzles and bounties in order to earn commendations to buy accessories. That or spend 50 ectos and 40 laurels for each from the laurel vendor. So coupled with poor fractal rewards and high costs, it's still two weeks per piece minimum, IN a large guild, which many people may not appreciate.

Oh, and I've been pugging dungeons daily for weeks now since I decided to do them in earnest. Not once have I had to endure a gear check, much less for ascended accessories. Please stop making things up to support your otherwise weak arguments.

These arguments would be much more succinct if their supporters would simply say "I hate fractals and wish they would go away!" I was one of those people at the start. It took me a month to get into it, a month which I regret because it's some of the richest, most challenging, yet easily accessible content in the game. Yes, I said easily accessible. If a party of level 2s can make it through a level 4 fractal, it's easily accessible for everyone.

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 19 November 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Wrong. If you damage your armor, you can simply go back to character selection screen, select your caharcter again, port to LA, fix armor, and go back in FOTM.


In his defense, that doesn't work for the instance owner. Something I really wish Anet would change. If I start the instance, I'm locked into that character through the whole deal. I like to change to different characters based on the shard I encounter and the party members I'm with. I would also like to be instance owner so I can easily roll swamp/water while I wait for the party to fill up. I can only do one of those.

Edited by AKGeo, 19 November 2013 - 08:43 PM.


#9 master21

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:47 PM

Fractal is probably the only place in pve where gear, skill, build, matters.
I only wish they rebalance fractals. Maw is just boring as hell with 100% of succes rate (could be even soloed with easy) event. I really can't imagine how this can be on par with some molten duo bosses or this annoying as hell girl with magic cheating pistol.
Fractals should randomized in terms of maps but not that much in terms of how hard they are.

Another place where this gear, skill, build, etc matters is high end wvwvw. Ascended progression adds reason to both of those groups (hardcore pve players and wvwvw players). They play a lot, they probably spend a lot of money on gems, they are worth development time.

#10 Mordakai

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:10 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 19 November 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:



I didn't read your wall of text just yet, just your bullet points. And they're all wrong. I'll tell you why.

1: The amount of time fractals takes to achieve an ascended item is exorbitant. 10 runs at least per character to even get a sniff at an ascended ring. I've done dozens of runs since the introduction of ascended weapon boxes and have yet to receive one. And regular rewards are as stale as they have been for the last year. I still only do it for the skins, and all I've gotten on that front are two scepters.

2: I don't want people who have to only do a level 2 to be in my level 40. I want experienced people in my group. If I want to do a low level, I'll do a low level to show people the ropes. But new fractalers should go through the same painful experiences the rest of us have in order to earn their place in higher levels. None of this trophy-for-trying BS.

3: The only repair canisters I've ever used in fractals were because I went in unknowingly with already-damaged armor. I've done many a higher-level run without incurring any damaged armor at all, and I'm not alone. It doesn't take many wipes for a skilled party to get through a single fractal run. I suggest upping your level of skill instead of relying on gem store items to carry you through. It may sound harsh, but it's the truth. I'm not the most skilled fractal runner out there. I'm happy admitting that I'm probably around the middle of the road in that aspect. So instead of calling me elitist and brushing off my constructive criticism like I'm sure you will, try evaluating your personal skill level and those of the people you party up with, and improve on it. You'll have a much better time of things.

4: Reliably obtain ascended items. Right. You can get rings reliably. Everything else, not so much. I can farm up the gold to buy items needed for ascended crafting much faster and easier by running regular dungeons. And I've been doing just that. Crafting ascended weapons may be expensive, but it's faster and much more reliable than hoping for RNG to smile upon you.

I'll try to get to the rest of your post later, but probably not.


So, the only point of doing fractals is personal recognition?


#11 Arkham Creed

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:14 PM

View PostMordakai, on 19 November 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

So, the only point of doing fractals is personal recognition?

There is a certain demographic of MMO players whose primary motivation for everything is personal recognition.

#12 AKGeo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:18 PM

View PostMordakai, on 19 November 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

So, the only point of doing fractals is personal recognition?

Out of all I wrote, that's all you came away with?

Fractals has a CHANCE of giving you something rather quickly that would take a large amount of gold and time otherwise to obtain "reliably". But that's the key word: reliably. His word, not mine. I don't mind repeating the dungeon for the chance at that fractal weapon skin that would complete my collection. Why? Because the content itself is fun enough to repeat. In a game where people would willingly repeat a 5 minute path of the most aesthetically unappealing dungeon (in my opinion) for hours on end simply because it paid better than anything else (yes, I'm so happy they changed dungeon end rewards to a daily bonus), I find it rather amusing that these same people claim that fractals are a grind for BIS gear, when it's far from the truth altogether.

IF you get an ascended weapon drop, it's not guaranteed to be the stat combo that's ideal for you. IF you get a fractal weapon, you still need to transmute it for it to be useful. It's aesthetic only. And IF you want an earring or amulet, you don't even go to fractals at all, because there's NO WAY you can get them in there. So that point is simply false altogether. There are only THREE of your available 16 equipment slots that you can RELIABLY fill, and only 7 of those can be filled at all, by playing fractals.

If you don't like fractals, so be it. It doesn't bother me either way. But if you don't know what you're talking about, you should refrain from making a bullet list of "points" like you're some sort of authority on the matter.

This forum would go much smoother and have fewer arguments if most of the users would refrain from attributing their own limited personal experiences to the entirety of the game's population.

Edited by AKGeo, 19 November 2013 - 09:32 PM.


#13 Uio

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:24 PM

Look there's no reason to hate a patch based on fractals, it was bound to happen. BUT - disregarding that repair comment & gear check comment- I agree with you OP. Though people may love fractals, does it not come with its own can of worms? It sets the respective player base with ridiculous expectations. When you do dungeons with hardcore fractal runners, they seem to expect everyone to know what build to run as if there are required builds out there that every player should use. I get soo pissed when some pug or even an ignorant guildie EXPECTS my guardian to 'take' aggro. sigh. I understand that thieves especially need the boss turned around to do heavy damage, but isn't gw2 about that move away from the holy trinity? Isn't it about what YOU want, not what will make the runs faster? Isn't it about equally distributing every role to every member of the party? So to end this rant, fractals do not belong in gw2, simply because of the expectations it enforces upon players. Honestly I do not want the holy trinity. This game does not need class roles.
To all those who defend fractals- ask yourselves "Have I ever brought the same rigid expectations I've experienced from fractals to the rest of pve? Have I ever expected someone else, be it pug or guildie, to play their class?"

#14 Little Bird

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:41 PM

View PostUio, on 19 November 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

To all those who defend fractals- ask yourselves "Have I ever brought the same rigid expectations I've experienced from fractals to the rest of pve? Have I ever expected someone else, be it pug or guildie, to play their class?"

I use my engineer in fractals and run 48 every day if I can. The only thing I expect from my party regardless of what they play is: die as little as possible, help each other quickly if someone gets downed. I expect this what ever I am doing in the game that involves relying on a team. I don't know what builds are good or bad personally.

I am personally apprehensive about the update - what is going to happen to my back piece that I had to infuse using 250 ecto? The new rune reward that has a chance to drop relies on a sigil to activate - but...engineers are the only class in the game that have NO sigils.
I like running Fractals because it's fun to me personally. I get a fair amount of high tier crafting materials and a fair amount of yellows. I mainly run it though because I am desperate for another Fractal Pistol skin and a few others to complete my collection. I love those skins.

People think running high Fractals makes you "hard core" somehow but just like any dungeon path, you learn it and you get better at it. I still suck at certain parts of it (the dolphin part, the dredge part  I just volunteer to die on a button e_e and the one where you have to carry a hammer that kills you - don't let me carry the hammer. I will die LOL!)

But I dunno - I hate that it seems only guardians,warriors, mesmers and theives are welcome up there. This new Rune reward only seems to confirm there isn't much thought left for this class. =p

#15 AKGeo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:43 PM

View PostUio, on 19 November 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

Look there's no reason to hate a patch based on fractals, it was bound to happen. BUT - disregarding that repair comment & gear check comment- I agree with you OP. Though people may love fractals, does it not come with its own can of worms? It sets the respective player base with ridiculous expectations. When you do dungeons with hardcore fractal runners, they seem to expect everyone to know what build to run as if there are required builds out there that every player should use. I get soo pissed when some pug or even an ignorant guildie EXPECTS my guardian to 'take' aggro. sigh. I understand that thieves especially need the boss turned around to do heavy damage, but isn't gw2 about that move away from the holy trinity? Isn't it about what YOU want, not what will make the runs faster? Isn't it about equally distributing every role to every member of the party? So to end this rant, fractals do not belong in gw2, simply because of the expectations it enforces upon players. Honestly I do not want the holy trinity. This game does not need class roles.
To all those who defend fractals- ask yourselves "Have I ever brought the same rigid expectations I've experienced from fractals to the rest of pve? Have I ever expected someone else, be it pug or guildie, to play their class?"

I've never had any rigid expectations from anyone in fractals. I never once demand that thief to be the one to stealth the door mechanism in the dredge fractal (or that mesmer to portal us in), or to perma-stealth the bonfire in the blizzard. I never demand the mesmer Mimic Mossman's agony. I never demanded the mesmer to portal us up past the second round of harpies. I never demanded the mesmer to pull mobs in ascalon, or for the guardian to drop reflect walls and "tank". Mostly because I tend to take those roles myself, without being asked. This transfers to regular dungeons. I never demand thieves to stealth us so we can run past enemies. In fact, I hate doing that altogether.

I do, however, demand that people use their heads and utilize their skills optimally. If you're a guardian or mesmer and don't bring your reflects to CM, or refuse to after being asked, after a party wipes because they don't, there's a problem. Either adapt to the situation and take tips from those who know how to do it, or refrain from playing that dungeon. I held the community to this standard long before I devoted large amounts of time to fractals. If there is some major mechanic in a dungeon that is countered easily by a certain class's major utility theme, then common sense says to utilize that advantage at least a little bit. Two pugs of CM yesterday resulted in massive wipes and ragequitting because the guardians/mesmers of the group refused to use their very powerful and practically required reflection skills in a timely manner, or at all. It happens way too often. Anet would not have made CM so Rifleman-heavy if they didn't also understand that players would practically demand reflection in return. So you're simply refusing to turn a potentially frustrating and rage-inducing mechanic into what's essentially a necessity for completion.

But no, Fractals have nothing to do with that mindset. At all. Fractals doesn't require a push towards any "holy trinity", and your assumption that all classes should be able to handle all roles in a group is simply ludicrous. There wouldn't be multiple classes, multiple armor levels, and multiple class utility focuses if Anet intended for all classes to be able to handle everything equally.

Edited by AKGeo, 19 November 2013 - 09:47 PM.


#16 Averath

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:48 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 19 November 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

I didn't read your wall of text just yet, just your bullet points. And they're all wrong. I'll tell you why.

1: The amount of time fractals takes to achieve an ascended item is exorbitant. 10 runs at least per character to even get a sniff at an ascended ring. I've done dozens of runs since the introduction of ascended weapon boxes and have yet to receive one. And regular rewards are as stale as they have been for the last year. I still only do it for the skins, and all I've gotten on that front are two scepters.

2: I don't want people who have to only do a level 2 to be in my level 40. I want experienced people in my group. If I want to do a low level, I'll do a low level to show people the ropes. But new fractalers should go through the same painful experiences the rest of us have in order to earn their place in higher levels. None of this trophy-for-trying BS.

3: The only repair canisters I've ever used in fractals were because I went in unknowingly with already-damaged armor. I've done many a higher-level run without incurring any damaged armor at all, and I'm not alone. It doesn't take many wipes for a skilled party to get through a single fractal run. I suggest upping your level of skill instead of relying on gem store items to carry you through. It may sound harsh, but it's the truth. I'm not the most skilled fractal runner out there. I'm happy admitting that I'm probably around the middle of the road in that aspect. So instead of calling me elitist and brushing off my constructive criticism like I'm sure you will, try evaluating your personal skill level and those of the people you party up with, and improve on it. You'll have a much better time of things.

4: Reliably obtain ascended items. Right. You can get rings reliably. Everything else, not so much. I can farm up the gold to buy items needed for ascended crafting much faster and easier by running regular dungeons. And I've been doing just that. Crafting ascended weapons may be expensive, but it's faster and much more reliable than hoping for RNG to smile upon you.

I'll try to get to the rest of your post later, but probably not.

So, effectively, what you're saying is: 'Don't look at my elitist attitude and label me as an elitist! If you label me as an elitist, it's your problem, not the fact that I'm an elitist!'

You're trying to blame your elitist attitude on other people?

The problem with Fractals content is that it exacerbates the 'Haves' against the 'Have nots', and those who are in the latter category should 'L2P' and get better at the game. The problem therein is that it is inherently an elitist attitude to tell other players to simply get better at the game. There are countless variables that dictate 'skill' in an online game. You've already summed up one of the largest barriers that players must pass to even be considered 'skilled' in Fractals. Why would you want to play with someone "new" when you want to play with experienced players? The only time you'd want to play with someone new on a lower difficulty is to teach them how to play, but that desire to instruct newer players is anything but the 'norm', and hardly ever happens.

In essence, Fractals are a first-come first-served style of content. If you're with the initial group, you'll have an easier time progressing. But if you take a break or join after it has been established, you're going to have significant difficulties that are above and beyond what the initial adopters had to face.

#17 Thaddeuz

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:55 PM

Most of the time i love to help people in fractal. It easier to explain stuff to guildmate, because you know they are in our voice chat. But i don't mind most of the time to explain to pug. Hell i even like it. Some of my guildmate hate to pug stuff because of that, i it make me angry sometime. They want to only do stuff in Guild because this is way better and more efficient and we don't need to explain stuff to pug. This piss me off because I was the one to show them how it work and helped them. When i started to play i had nobody to give me all that information and me and my friend figure got A LOT of knowledge from pug. We were giving advice and receive some in return. Pugging is a really good way to spread knowledge of the game. I try to help people when i can because i expect that i will receive advice from other people since i really don't know all about the game.

I will have some expectation in high level fractal. You're suppose to have done about 40+ fractal run if you are playing in a 40+ fractal run. And if you didn't do enough fractal, maybe you are not in your place. Like i wasn't in my place when i had only 10 fractal behind me.

#18 AKGeo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:08 PM

View PostAverath, on 19 November 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

So, effectively, what you're saying is: 'Don't look at my elitist attitude and label me as an elitist! If you label me as an elitist, it's your problem, not the fact that I'm an elitist!'

You're trying to blame your elitist attitude on other people?

The problem with Fractals content is that it exacerbates the 'Haves' against the 'Have nots', and those who are in the latter category should 'L2P' and get better at the game. The problem therein is that it is inherently an elitist attitude to tell other players to simply get better at the game. There are countless variables that dictate 'skill' in an online game. You've already summed up one of the largest barriers that players must pass to even be considered 'skilled' in Fractals. Why would you want to play with someone "new" when you want to play with experienced players? The only time you'd want to play with someone new on a lower difficulty is to teach them how to play, but that desire to instruct newer players is anything but the 'norm', and hardly ever happens.

In essence, Fractals are a first-come first-served style of content. If you're with the initial group, you'll have an easier time progressing. But if you take a break or join after it has been established, you're going to have significant difficulties that are above and beyond what the initial adopters had to face.

I didn't get past level 2 fractals for the first month they existed. People were hitting level 30s in a couple weeks. Guess what? I'm still able to join higher level fractals. Why? Because I have the AR required, the mechanics don't change past level 10 (only the damage you take per hit), and there's really no other way of "gear checking" people and cutting them out of your group. So if you learn the levels, and can hold your own against enemies that can potentially one-shot you, then you're good to go. The higher levels that are worth doing are NOT dominated by elitists in-crowds with black lists and such. You honestly don't need to much beyond level 30 to get a good chance at the best rewards. Level 26 gets you already-infused rings and fractal weapon skins. Level 10+ have a chance at ascended boxes. No, it is NOT "first come first served" at all. In essence or otherwise. You need to change your personal impression of the dungeon if you want to succeed at it, because it's wrong.

Your attitude is unfounded. I'm not an elitist, I'm simply stating facts: it's impossible to get most BIS items from fractals. The only easy-to-get BIS items from fractals can also be easily obtained outside of fractals. The backpiece can be had simply by playing level 1 fractals exclusively, which are stupid easy, a proven fact considering upleveled level 2s have done it, without the best utilities or elite skills. His entire argument was that you NEEDED TO DO FRACTALS to get BIS items. You can get every other BIS ascended item (besides the backpiece) faster than doing fractals. It takes 10 days of fractals after already getting to level 10 in order to get a guaranteed ring of your stat preference. That's probably the only thing that's easier in fractals than elsewhere.

The argument that fractals is required to do anything else in the game is flat-out wrong. In fact, the opposite is true. It's required to do guild missions and daily/monthly achievements to advance past a certain point in fractals, as those are the only methods of obtaining amulets and earrings. So saying that fractals ruined the game is ridiculous. Fractals is completely stand-alone, and ascended gear was going to be introduced regardless of its existence.

YES, THE HAVE-NOTS NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY AND IMPROVE AT THE GAME. It's not elitist to demand that people strive to better themselves. Seriously? That statement is the product of the trophy-for-trying attitude that people have been fostering in society. If you do not possess the skill to achieve a goal, you don't get the rewards. Period. So your choices are to A: achieve that skill, learn to play, and earn your rewards or B: refuse to better yourself, sit down and whine about not getting what that person who put in the effort to obtain did.

If you want to play with experienced players, but do not possess the skills necessary to hold your own, then you need to find a group of those experienced players who are willing to carry you through high-end stuff or teach you the mechanics in lower-level tiers.These people do exist, and they're not very rare at all. Join a guild that runs fractals...the members are going to be more than willing to train new players in order to get a deeper pool of potential teammates for their runs in the future. I already said that I'm willing to do that, at times. But demanding that I willingly take an unskilled newbie along when I'm looking for a completion quickly before I have to log off? Please, give it a rest. And if your experiences show that experienced players have shrugged you off after trying to teach you how to do the dungeons, perhaps you need to evaluate your own progression and think that maybe you're showing yourself as unwilling to learn or adapt to the style demanded by the play mode.

Thankfully though, Fractals are not required for anything at all significant in this game, save for aesthetic rewards and maybe some bragging rights. Because it's definitely not monetary rewards or BIS items.

Edited by AKGeo, 19 November 2013 - 10:24 PM.


#19 nerfandderf

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:10 PM

Have you seen the rage about taking away their level progress? back to lvl30?
Think that sums up a lot as well.

Very nice well thought out post. I agree that was part of it. But had they implemented fractals without the grind and the AR ect maybe things would have been better. But they chose to chase the $ a look what it got them.

#20 nerfandderf

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:22 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 19 November 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Just like people who played primarily or exclusively fractals have been stuffed by EVERY update for a year. Thanks for playing.
and the people who purchased the game based on what was promised havent played since November 12. What about them and their content?

Lets be honest - it will turn into a huge epeen contest again just like dungeons did. Ping gear and must be leader board or kick.

They segregated the community just the same as the dungeon speed runs did. And one final point - the game at the start wasnt about the rewards - it was about having fun and enjoying yourself.
Having build diversity and alts and doing whatever you wanted and whatever you found fund. (all crushed)

Fractals brought a treadmill, AR, gear grind,dailies,monthlies ect. seems a lot of negative things are wrapped up in that release.

Edited by nerfandderf, 19 November 2013 - 10:27 PM.


#21 Baldur The Bold

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:24 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 19 November 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Your attitude is unfounded. I'm not an elitist, I'm simply stating facts: it's impossible to get most BIS items from fractals. The only easy-to-get BIS items from fractals can also be easily obtained outside of fractals. The backpiece can be had simply by playing level 1 fractals exclusively, which are stupid easy, a proven fact considering upleveled level 2s have done it, without the best utilities or elite skills. His entire argument was that you NEEDED TO DO FRACTALS to get BIS items. You can get every other BIS ascended item (besides the backpiece) faster than doing fractals. It takes 10 days of fractals after already getting to level 10 in order to get a guaranteed ring of your stat preference. That's probably the only thing that's easier in fractals than elsewhere.

The argument that fractals is required to do anything else in the game is flat-out wrong. In fact, the opposite is true. It's required to do guild missions and daily/monthly achievements to advance past a certain point in fractals, as those are the only methods of obtaining amulets and earrings. So saying that fractals ruined the game is ridiculous. Fractals is completely stand-alone, and ascended gear was going to be introduced regardless of its existence.

YES, THE HAVE-NOTS NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY AND IMPROVE AT THE GAME. It's not elitist to demand that people strive to better themselves. Seriously? That statement is the product of the trophy-for-trying attitude that people have been fostering in society. If you do not possess the skill to achieve a goal, you don't get the rewards. Period. So your choices are to A: achieve that skill, learn to play, and earn your rewards or B: refuse to better yourself, sit down and whine about not getting what that person who put in the effort to obtain did.

If you want to play with experienced players, but do not possess the skills necessary to hold your own, then you need to find a group of those experienced players who are willing to carry you through high-end stuff or teach you the mechanics in lower-level tiers.These people do exist, and they're not very rare at all. Join a guild that runs fractals...the members are going to be more than willing to train new players in order to get a deeper pool of potential teammates for their runs in the future. I already said that I'm willing to do that, at times. But demanding that I willingly take an unskilled newbie along when I'm looking for a completion quickly before I have to log off? Please, give it a rest. And if your experiences show that experienced players have shrugged you off after trying to teach you how to do the dungeons, perhaps you need to evaluate your own progression and think that maybe you're showing yourself as unwilling to learn or adapt to the style demanded by the play mode.

Thankfully though, Fractals are not required for anything at all significant in this game, save for aesthetic rewards and maybe some bragging rights. Because it's definitely not monetary rewards or BIS items.


TL;DR=LTP?

#22 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:25 PM

I've played Fractals more than all Living Stories combined. The LS is just not for me, maybe you have to accept that FOTMs were not created to be played and enjoyed by everyone, maybe it's kind of content you dislike.

#23 StormDragonZ

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:26 PM

I only do Lv.1-9 Fractals. I don't care about loot and I do fine with what I currently have.

One day, I might try a Lv.10 Fractal just to see how much radically different it is since you need some form of agony resistance. If it's that much of a difference, then I might not venture beyond.

#24 AKGeo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:28 PM

View Postnerfandderf, on 19 November 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

Have you seen the rage about taking away their level progress? back to lvl30?
Think that sums up a lot as well.

Very nice well thought out post. I agree that was part of it. But had they implemented fractals without the grind and the AR ect maybe things would have been better. But they chose to chase the $ a look what it got them.

People who put in the effort to go well beyond their AR limitations, who put in the time and effort to obtain enough ascended gear to survive the agony at those high levels and succeed, those who have organized ideal groups in order to mitigate the damage sustained in fractals (I'm sure at fractal level 80 one arrow cart volley on a berserker mesmer in the ascalon shard can one-shot), their progress has been for nothing. They had their prestige stolen from them for nothing other than "balance" and "giving new guys a chance". New guys are unlikely to even get to that level any time soon anyway, so why would you invalidate that work?

You can do fractals without grind or AR. That's what 1-10 is for. If you want them to be harder, you need to play by Anet's rules, or don't play at all.

Edited by AKGeo, 19 November 2013 - 10:29 PM.


#25 AKGeo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:39 PM

View Postnerfandderf, on 19 November 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

and the people who purchased the game based on what was promised havent played since November 12. What about them and their content?

Lets be honest - it will turn into a huge epeen contest again just like dungeons did. Ping gear and must be leader board or kick.

They segregated the community just the same as the dungeon speed runs did. And one final point - the game at the start wasnt about the rewards - it was about having fun and enjoying yourself.
Having build diversity and alts and doing whatever you wanted and whatever you found fund. (all crushed)

Fractals brought a treadmill, AR, gear grind,dailies,monthlies ect. seems a lot of negative things are wrapped up in that release.

If one introduction of one dungeon made people quit the game altogether, that's their problem. I find plenty to do outside of fractals, and if they allow a false impression of the dungeon to sour their entire gaming experience, they weren't going to stick around anyway, regardless of how much of a loss Anet takes in producing too much extra content that will spread the playerbase out too far and create dead zones, like in GW1.

Once more about dungeons: I can pug dungeons just fine without gear checks. I don't know what you're talking about with epeen. Maybe the only reliable gear-checked dungeon out there is CoF path 1, which is easy enough to pug and complete in a reasonable timeframe anyway, and doesn't need to be speed cleared any more since the change to dungeon end rewards. Achievement point gating? You can get a significant amount of points without ever doing that particular dungeon, just from PvP or buying minipets. Anyone who relies on AP as a measure of skill is a fool. There's one thing that is reliable as a test of skill, but is never used: Dungeon Master. Perhaps we're playing a different game, you and I. Because this gear checking elitism is invisible to me, and I do every dungeon every day.

Every game is about rewards. When gear is available as a reward, either stat or aesthetic, that's going to be the focus of the majority of the playerbase. Yes, fun is taken into account. But if CoF Path 1 grinding is any indication, fun is NOT the primary drive for most of the playerbase. It's that cookie at the end.

Fractals brought fractals. AR is unnecessary outside of fractals, so it's a moot point. Gear grind already existed, and once more: fractals are NOT THE SOURCE of most of the ascended gear in the game, and the ascended tier was ALREADY PLANNED for release regardless of fractals being the jumping-off point. Dailies and monthlies came later and were probably going to happen anyway, And who says dailies/monthlies are negative? They're a constant stream of achievement points which give significant rewards, without forcing players into the long-term achievement point grind that is WvW if they don't have any interest in PvP.

If the game isn't fun enough to play without these rewards, then why would you play it WITH the rewards?

Fractals are in no way, shape or form the cause of any problems this game may or may not have. Fractals are simply the scapegoat for people who can't accurately describe their frustrations and have to look for something to blame. If you don't like the game, don't play it. And if you don't play it, you have no grounds to complain about it.

Personal responsibility, get some.

Edited by AKGeo, 19 November 2013 - 10:44 PM.


#26 Baldur The Bold

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:43 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 19 November 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

You can do fractals without grind or AR. That's what 1-10 is for. If you want them to be harder, you need to play by Anet's rules, or don't play at all.

So it is not "The Way You Want To Play" but "Play The Way Anet Wants You To Play".
I probably will check them out and see how the new ones are but I am not holding my breath for anything good. Anet has lost my trust when it comes to LS. Let's take a look at this new update :)

3 new mini dungeons(fractals) encompasses pretty much the entire update and 2 were from prior LS patches.The Thermonuclea Reactor...I couldn't give a flying ♥♥♥♥ how that is in the lore....New Runes...yay......New ♥♥♥♥ing tonic.....yay....Leaderboards that noone cares about....yay........Where is the new packpiece???Oh ya...they already have one for fractals....yay....The only good thing about this update is the 2:24 min video...that is pretty much it..

#27 AKGeo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:53 PM

View PostBaldur The Bold, on 19 November 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

So it is not "The Way You Want To Play" but "Play The Way Anet Wants You To Play".
I probably will check them out and see how the new ones are but I am not holding my breath for anything good. Anet has lost my trust when it comes to LS. Let's take a look at this new update :)

3 new mini dungeons(fractals) encompasses pretty much the entire update and 2 were from prior LS patches.The Thermonuclea Reactor...I couldn't give a flying ♥♥♥♥ how that is in the lore....New Runes...yay......New ♥♥♥♥ing tonic.....yay....Leaderboards that noone cares about....yay........Where is the new packpiece???Oh ya...they already have one for fractals....yay....The only good thing about this update is the 2:24 min video...that is pretty much it..

Every game has a structure of developer-set rules. But anet has gone to great lengths to not require any player to play any particular aspect of the game that they do not choose to. You don't need to WvW. You don't need to PvP. You don't need to play fractals, or dungeons, or open world exploration, or DEs, or crafting, or play the trading post, or craft a legendary, or earn achievement points, or do dailies/monthlies, or run max gear.

But here's where you and many others get confused: IF YOU DO wish to play any of those, you need to follow the rules that Anet has set. "Play your way" is not "do whatever you want and get whatever you want from it". It's "You can play these modes but not those ones and you won't suffer in any way except aesthetically."

And if you choose not to, then you have no place to demand the rewards for those game modes. I don't demand a dragon finisher when I'm only a Rabbit rank in sPvP. I don't demand a legendary if I don't choose to level my crafting up. I don't demand the radiant/hellfire skins if I don't work on achievement points. I don't demand that dungeon armor skin if I don't do that dungeon. I don't demand fractal weapons if I don't do fractals. It's that simple.

And since this thread is about fractals, you need to stop ignoring the point that ascended gear is much more obtainable outside of fractals than inside. And that's the ONLY argument that anyone can have nowadays about the effect that fractals has on the rest of the game. Back in the early days, I complained justifiably that Fractals was bad for the game because it funneled the majority of the playerbase away from the open world and pre-existing dungeon content due to its exclusive and elevated reward structure. That was adjusted by popular demand, and now that argument is moot, null and void. Dungeons are thriving. If you want to find something to blame for the game being "dead", blame champion loot bags drawing people to champ trains in Queensdale and Frostgorge.

So you don't like fractals so this update isn't for you. So be it. You didn't pay for it. Anet doesn't owe you anything but server uptime.

Edited by AKGeo, 19 November 2013 - 10:56 PM.


#28 Averath

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 11:24 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 19 November 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

YES, THE HAVE-NOTS NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY AND IMPROVE AT THE GAME. It's not elitist to demand that people strive to better themselves. Seriously? That statement is the product of the trophy-for-trying attitude that people have been fostering in society. If you do not possess the skill to achieve a goal, you don't get the rewards. Period. So your choices are to A: achieve that skill, learn to play, and earn your rewards or B: refuse to better yourself, sit down and whine about not getting what that person who put in the effort to obtain did.

If you want to play with experienced players, but do not possess the skills necessary to hold your own, then you need to find a group of those experienced players who are willing to carry you through high-end stuff or teach you the mechanics in lower-level tiers.These people do exist, and they're not very rare at all. Join a guild that runs fractals...the members are going to be more than willing to train new players in order to get a deeper pool of potential teammates for their runs in the future. I already said that I'm willing to do that, at times. But demanding that I willingly take an unskilled newbie along when I'm looking for a completion quickly before I have to log off? Please, give it a rest. And if your experiences show that experienced players have shrugged you off after trying to teach you how to do the dungeons, perhaps you need to evaluate your own progression and think that maybe you're showing yourself as unwilling to learn or adapt to the style demanded by the play mode.

Up until the point that I've quoted above, your argument was solid; at least in my opinion. I feel you've brought up valid points to clarify any misconceptions I've had about the system. However, the quote above summarizes the very elitist attitude I was referencing earlier.

Your argument is inherently flawed for a very basic reason that most players refuse to acknowledge, or simply fail to realize. Guild Wars 2, like all products similar to it, is a video game. It is a form of interactive entertainment. It is not a sport. Let me repeat that last sentence again. It is not a sport. If I purchase a video game I am entitled to enjoy it, because that is the fundamental purpose of a video game. It does not matter if I am a prodigy at the game, nor does it matter if I'm the worst player that ever existed. Skill is irrelevant when it comes to enjoying a video game.

If you do not possess the skills to achieve a goal for something that actually matters, such as a job, then you need to better yourself. If you do not possess the skills to achieve a goal for a video game, and that game is not explicitly designed from the beginning with the intent to punish you for lacking skill, then there should be a way for you to enjoy that game in another fashion, or the developers have failed. Guild Wars 2 was pushed as a casual game, a casual experience, a 'fun' experience. And it has, over time, become no different than typical MMOs where they revolve around the grind.

I'm not saying that Guild Wars 2 isn't fun in other ways, but when the community adapts to a certain playstyle, and all other playstyles are discouraged, it is up to the developers to allow these other playstyles to thrive, rather than cut them off, as seems to be the current trend.

Finally, I made no demands of you to take a skilled newbie along with you. I simply made a point. Stating that you are willing to help someone, and actively helping someone is very different. The willingness to do something does not always evolve into the desire to do something. And yet again, at the end of the quote, your attitude leans toward elitist trneds once more, as it is entirely the student's fault, not the teacher's fault, that the student isn't learning. That's a sad outlook our society holds that needs to be addressed. Some blame may be well deserved for one party, but the other party is never blameless.

#29 AKGeo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 11:29 PM

You are not entitled to rewards equivalent to others if you do not put in the effort or show the skill equivalent to others.

Way back in the day of Super Mario Brothers, if you did not possess the skill to beat Bowser, you could not make the claim that you beat Bowser. The game did not scale itself down to allow just anyone to beat Bowser if they couldn't do it on their first try. The very first popular video game, Pong, did not give both sides points when one side got the ball past the other side's paddle. If your skill level was not on par or exceeding the skill level of your opponent, you could not achieve the REWARD that was bragging rights of being the winner.

I remember back in high school that it was the pinnacle achievement to have high score on the popular game at the local arcade. That's why the leaderboard was there, so you could brag. When you were the guy at the new Street Fighter machine that was beating everyone who put that quarter in the right-hand slot on a Saturday afternoon, you earned that reward: bragging rights.

MMOs on consoles and PC games have introduced virtual bragging rights, and in GW2's case, those are in the form of titles, weapon and armor skins, and the ability to open a higher level fractal than anyone else in your party. Nothing has changed with video games...the only thing that has changed is the expectations of the playerbase fostered by the societal change towards everyone's equal and deserves the same stuff as everyone else. Which I will completely, utterly, and forever disagree with.

That is not being elitist. That is being realistic, and intolerant of those who want something for nothing. Good day.

Edited by AKGeo, 19 November 2013 - 11:38 PM.


#30 Baldur The Bold

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 11:46 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 19 November 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

So you don't like fractals so this update isn't for you. So be it. You didn't pay for it. Anet doesn't owe you anything but server uptime.

That is the attitude that kills games. You're right, it isnt for me, I did pay for it though. Gems+box. Anet does owe me something, the game they stated in their manifesto that they were going to make.




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