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Good job on the new healing skills /sarcasm


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#1 Arkham Creed

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:27 PM

So I fully support adding more skills to the game, and even support Arena Net’s reasons for starting with healing skills. However I have a problem with their current implementation. Two problems, actually.

1; Why in the ‘effing eff can’t I slot the skills in the Heart of the Mists and test them out like EVERY OTHER SKILL AND TRAIT IN THE GAME? I’m not going to invest that many skill points into a new skill just to see if I might like it and might be able to work it into a build.

2; Why does this thing cost 25 skill points? Are you honestly trying to tell me that Water Spirit is as valuable as a tier two elite skill? I get that the point cost is no big deal for some people, that is exactly the kind of narrow-minded thinking that I am against. It seems to me that this skill’s point cost is just a way to help all the level 80s out there dump some of their hundreds of unused skill points. Nicely done. Unfortunately that makes these skills just one big middle finger to new players, players who took a break and are coming back, and players trying to raise alts. Good job Arena Net. What, are you under the impressing that you just don’t have any new/returning players to worry about?

Edited by Arkham Creed, 11 December 2013 - 08:27 PM.


#2 Loperdos

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:46 PM

To your second point...

Are these heal skills THAT much more useful than the current ones to warrant an almost 10x cost in skill points vs the other heal skills?

I can't honestly speak for all of them, but there are definitely some that fall under the "definitely not" category (read = thief, necro).

#3 konsta_hoptrop

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:47 PM

25 skillpoints... if you open 15 champion bags and run 10 dungeons you have 25 skillpoints... 2-3 days playing even for the most casual players. There are many other things to invest skillpoints... augur stones for ascended items... u need 6 for 1 full ascended armor set thats 120 skillpoints bloodstone shard is 200 skillpoints for 1 legendary.. May be they want to force "pvpers" to do some pve and pve players to do some pvp for cheaper t3 armors and level tomes.  But i am still waiting to see real pvp in that game . Koth is interesting but only that mode.... players even after 1 year and 3-4 months still resist to cap points fast and just rush in the zerg . Ofc other team isnt that stupid and try to cap and occupy all points..

warrior heal skill is worth, guardian heal skill isnt bad too , dont know about other skills. Engineer heal skill sound good but still didnt tryed it

Edited by konsta_hoptrop, 11 December 2013 - 08:50 PM.


#4 leongrado

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:50 PM

I have 200 skill points to spare. I'd imagine other people who've gotten world completion have got even more lying around.

As you mentioned before, it costs as much as a tier 2 elite. Yeah that's a little steep but I've never heard of anyone complaining about the cost of elites. In fact the toxic healing skill cost 25 skill points too... Don't recall too many complaints about that one either. The new skills don't seem that much better than the current ones so I can't see a need to get them.

#5 Phadde

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:54 PM

Love all of 'em!

I don't see how this could be "a way to help all the level 80s out there dump some of their hundreds of unused skill points." Not like it's going to make a difference to spend 25 skillpoints... I've no idea why it's beneficial to have them cost so many SPs; guess we'll have to wait and see.

Edited by Phadde, 11 December 2013 - 09:01 PM.


#6 artemist

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:13 PM

Awesome, but casting time on warrior killing me hard ^^ especially on wvwvw lags.

#7 davadude

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:44 PM

View PostArkham Creed, on 11 December 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

1; Why in the ‘effing eff can’t I slot the skills in the Heart of the Mists and test them out like EVERY OTHER SKILL AND TRAIT IN THE GAME? I’m not going to invest that many skill points into a new skill just to see if I might like it and might be able to work it into a build.

The skills are not enabled in Player versus Player for obvious reasons (some are pretty damn powerful), and any skill not available in PvP cannot be equipped in hard of the mists.  If you want to test them, use the dummies in the Fields of Ruin at Ebonhawke.

View PostArkham Creed, on 11 December 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

So I fully support adding more skills to the game, and even support Arena Net’s reasons for starting with healing skills. However I have a problem with their current implementation. Two problems, actually.

1; Why in the ‘effing eff can’t I slot the skills in the Heart of the Mists and test them out like EVERY OTHER SKILL AND TRAIT IN THE GAME? I’m not going to invest that many skill points into a new skill just to see if I might like it and might be able to work it into a build.

2; Why does this thing cost 25 skill points? Are you honestly trying to tell me that Water Spirit is as valuable as a tier two elite skill?

Because a few of them, are.  Try the elementalist one against 10 enemies.  You're gonna get healed to full health from the bottom of your health bubble if you know how to remotely target a group and kite.  Even the Guardian heal-focused elites don't do that much healing.

View PostArkham Creed, on 11 December 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

I get that the point cost is no big deal for some people, that is exactly the kind of narrow-minded thinking that I am against.

How is it narrow minded?  Completing any level-80 or meta boss event nets you 1/3 to 1/2 of your experience bar.  Killing an enemy at your level nets you 1/50 of your experience bar.  Killing a champion or Elite enemy nets a 50% chance (according to GW2W user research) of an instant level-up item with retaining of your current experience for the level.  Gaining skill points is easy no matter what your play style is.

Speaking of, isn't it just as narrow-minded to expect everyone to follow along with your though that 25 points is a valuable asset?  Heck, some people find 1000 gold to be easy to get, I have trouble getting more than 200 and maintaining it that high, doesn't mean I expect others to follow along with my expectations.  I know it's just put in there to bait people into a generic circular discussion, but please, skill points are easy to acquire and easy to use.  25 points for a great healing skill is fair.

If you care at all, had you said this about antitoxin spray, I'd agree with you.  But these new heals?  They're worth it on the 5 profession I tried them out on.

View PostPhadde, on 11 December 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

I've no idea why it's beneficial to have them cost so many SPs; guess we'll have to wait and see.

Two possibilities:
  • Legendary / Upgrade items from Miyani.
  • Ego.

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#8 MazingerZ

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:51 PM

View Postdavadude, on 11 December 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

The skills are not enabled in Player versus Player for obvious reasons (some are pretty damn powerful), and any skill not available in PvP cannot be equipped in hard of the mists.  If you want to test them, use the dummies in the Fields of Ruin at Ebonhawke.

...

How is it narrow minded?  Completing any level-80 or meta boss event nets you 1/3 to 1/2 of your experience bar.  Killing an enemy at your level nets you 1/50 of your experience bar.  Killing a champion or Elite enemy nets a 50% chance (according to GW2W user research) of an instant level-up item with retaining of your current experience for the level.  Gaining skill points is easy no matter what your play style is.

First, lol... so one healing skill is more powerful than the rest in PvP?  Balance much?

You're missing the point of the second point.  It's not how easy it is to get a skill points at 80, we're talking about the worth of the skill versus the others, especially since it costs almost as much as a tier 2 elite.
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#9 Miragee

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:13 PM

Agreeing with the OP. New Skills are nice and bring more variety. Costs are way too high. Not everyone is farming bosses all the time (lol at the 15 bosses and 10 dungeons in 2-3 days for casuals). Sure you have stock-piled a lot of points right now. But imagine new players/returning players (an argument used in the OP, everyone just ignored and focused on themselves and how much skill points they have from constantly playing...). And imagine if each new skill costs as much. Holy s***. Also costs in PvP is just...But I guess that's for the PvE players which should be the new crowd for PvP (look at their plans) as the PvP crowd is long gone anyways.

View Postdavadude, on 11 December 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

The skills are not enabled in Player versus Player for obvious reasons (some are pretty damn powerful), and any skill not available in PvP cannot be equipped in hard of the mists.  If you want to test them, use the dummies in the Fields of Ruin at Ebonhawk.

You missunderstood. They are enabled in PvP. But you have to spend 25 skillpoints to get them like in PvE. So basically, after they learned from their mistake in gw1 (one of the very few..) and made everything in PvP accessible from the first second they now begin to exclude new players/characters.

#10 The Shadow

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:17 PM

I don't have skill points to spare. I just came back from a 3-4 month GW2 vacation. I'm back and now I need 120 skill points for Ascended armor (per character) as well as an additional 25 skill points (per character) for access to a heal skill in PvP...?

I'm not saying they shouldn't cost skill points in PvE, but 25 skill points for something I may never end up using in PvP? I want to try A.E.D on my Engie in PvP but I'm not wasting glory/ gold or time leveling up in PvE to test something out in PvP.

I'm not even arguing that it's hard to obtain 25 skill points, I know it isn't. But why the HELL should I be forced to spend money/ glory or farm in PvE for access to something in PvP?

It's just ♥♥♥♥ing stupid. It goes against what PvP in GW2 was supposed to be about.

I won't be buying any of them, regardless of how many skill points I have. There's enough time/ gold sink in GW2 already.

You think it's OK now, because it's just ONE skill for each professon, imagine them adding a whole new weapon set to each profession at 25 skill points each skill. FCUK THAT!

Edited by The Shadow, 11 December 2013 - 10:21 PM.


#11 davadude

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:02 AM

View PostMiragee, on 11 December 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

You missunderstood. They are enabled in PvP. But you have to spend 25 skillpoints to get them like in PvE. So basically, after they learned from their mistake in gw1 (one of the very few..) and made everything in PvP accessible from the first second they now begin to exclude new players/characters.

But I mean, isn't that exactly like all of the other skills?  Antitoxin spray is also locked from the start, same price, and same PvP restrictions.  All of the skills besides heal 1 and slot 1 weapon sills are locked from the start, and the majority require between 1 and 30 skill points to unlock.  How is it any different than what it's been?

View PostMazingerZ, on 11 December 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

First, lol... so one healing skill is more powerful than the rest in PvP?  Balance much?

Well... that's why they are not useable in PvP...

View PostMazingerZ, on 11 December 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

You're missing the point of the second point.  It's not how easy it is to get a skill points at 80, we're talking about the worth of the skill versus the others, especially since it costs almost as much as a tier 2 elite.

Most healing skills that cost 5 points (1 per profession, 1 per race), heal you for about 5000 health without trait modifiers.  If you know how to bunch some enemies together, the new skills can heal for 8000-15000 without trait modifiers.  That's better than any tier 2 elite skill in terms of healing and protection, even the guardian ones.
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#12 Miragee

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 02:47 PM

View Postdavadude, on 12 December 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

But I mean, isn't that exactly like all of the other skills?  Antitoxin spray is also locked from the start, same price, and same PvP restrictions.  All of the skills besides heal 1 and slot 1 weapon sills are locked from the start, and the majority require between 1 and 30 skill points to unlock.  How is it any different than what it's been?



Well... that's why they are not useable in PvP...


??????????

They ARE useable in PvP. But you have to pay 25 skill points. Sorry, I don't want to sound offensive, but have you ever set food into the Heart of the Mists? Every other skill is unlocked from the very first second. The new healing skills are not. This point is about PvP, not about PvE.

#13 El Duderino

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 03:59 PM

I just don't find the use of healing skills to be all that exciting. I think there are many people that have likened healing skills to playing "whack-a-mole" with health bars and I think those points are all very valid. Here is where I think we have a clear clue that ANet doesn't actually listen or collaborate with anyone: one of the people that spent a lot of time communicating with ANet in GW1 is still around and offering advice. In fact, his collaboration went so far that ANet actually named a boss after him. So, I'm not talking about some willy nilly guy here - I'm talking about real collaboration that was respected enough to include his name in the game. And, that person has stated that healing isn't nearly as interesting as buffs or protection. Yet, we don't see anything like this included in the game. Part of that problem could be that we really can't target anything in the game, but still, it is a shame that these ideas aren't listened to - because they are way better than the crap we are getting.

#14 VengefulShoe

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:05 PM

View Postdavadude, on 11 December 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

Try the elementalist one against 10 enemies.  You're gonna get healed to full health from the bottom of your health bubble if you know how to remotely target a group and kite.

The Elementalist heal is actually very underwhelming in practice for many reasons. The first sentence here is irrelevant because you can only hit up to 5 enemies with it just like every other AoE spell in the game (did you even read the tooltip?), which means you can only effectively double your healing if you hit five people. Good luck surviving the animation while standing in the middle of five people at low health, no matter your spec. The spell is counter intuitive and poorly designed. You have to actively put yourself in harms way to get any use out of it, which is exactly where you shouldn't be if you need to heal. The blast finisher aspect is only practical by using it in a water field. The only water fields that Elementalists have access to are on staff, which is 1,200 range. If you are near any enemies while playing staff, you are doing something horribly wrong.

#15 Arkham Creed

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:20 PM

View Postdavadude, on 12 December 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

But I mean, isn't that exactly like all of the other skills?  Antitoxin spray is also locked from the start, same price, and same PvP restrictions.  All of the skills besides heal 1 and slot 1 weapon sills are locked from the start, and the majority require between 1 and 30 skill points to unlock.  How is it any different than what it's been?

Clearly you've never set foot in the Heart of the Mists. At least not with a new character.

"Isn't that exactly like all of the other skills?"

In a word; no. When you go into the Heart of the Mists, even as a level two who doesn't even know what a skill point is, you are still instantly level to eighty, given access to all trait tiers, and given free access to every skill. That is why a lot of players, including myself, use the Heart of the Mists as a staging ground for theory crafting; it lets us try before we buy. We can test new trait set ups without having to pay for a respec, and test out new skills without having to commit the skill points to actually unlocking them in PvE. It is basically a build free trial. Except in the case of these new healing skill. Anti-Toxin Spray is an exception because it isn't usable in PvP at all; at least not that I've seen as it doesn't even appear on my skill list. But these new skills do, and they are the only ones that I have to pay to unlock in the Heart of the Mists.

#16 Andemius

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:27 PM

View Postdavadude, on 12 December 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

But I mean, isn't that exactly like all of the other skills?  Antitoxin spray is also locked from the start, same price, and same PvP restrictions.  All of the skills besides heal 1 and slot 1 weapon sills are locked from the start, and the majority require between 1 and 30 skill points to unlock.  How is it any different than what it's been?



Well... that's why they are not useable in PvP...



Most healing skills that cost 5 points (1 per profession, 1 per race), heal you for about 5000 health without trait modifiers.  If you know how to bunch some enemies together, the new skills can heal for 8000-15000 without trait modifiers.  That's better than any tier 2 elite skill in terms of healing and protection, even the guardian ones.

Errr... yes they are useable in pvp, after you unlock with skillpoints which you can only get from pve or via level up tomes. *questions whether you've been in pvp since the patch*

How can you get 8000-15000 out of the new skills? That seems kinda odd, but I've not explored them extensively.

#17 davadude

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:46 PM

View PostMiragee, on 12 December 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

??????????

They ARE useable in PvP. But you have to pay 25 skill points. Sorry, I don't want to sound offensive, but have you ever set food into the Heart of the Mists? Every other skill is unlocked from the very first second. The new healing skills are not. This point is about PvP, not about PvE.

Now I see where you're coming from.  When the patch launched on Tuesday the skills were initially non-existant in PvP, which is when I was in heart of the mists (this was included in the hotfix).  Now I see where you're coming from.  Apologies to all the others I replied to, I thought the fuss was about the PvE skill, period.

View PostAndemius, on 12 December 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

How can you get 8000-15000 out of the new skills? That seems kinda odd, but I've not explored them extensively.

For the elementalist skill, the amount of healing points you recieve depends on how many enemies you hit within blast radius.  If you can kite a mob around orr and get 5-10 enemies hitting you, you deal a rather large amount of damage and gain 1500 * enemies amount of points back with the maxed out arcana trait.

Edited by davadude, 12 December 2013 - 04:46 PM.

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#18 Mjölner

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 05:21 PM

View Postdavadude, on 12 December 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

Most healing skills that cost 5 points (1 per profession, 1 per race), heal you for about 5000 health without trait modifiers.  If you know how to bunch some enemies together, the new skills can heal for 8000-15000 without trait modifiers.  That's better than any tier 2 elite skill in terms of healing and protection, even the guardian ones.

Assuming the wiki is correct.
Light of Deliverance, skill 5 on the Tome of Courage: unaffected by all healing modifiers (healing power, agony, poison, etc) and heals up to 50000 hp. Fifty thousand.
Arcane Brilliance, Elementalist healing skill (since you tooted its power): base healing is 3560 (healing power mod 3%) and 20% more* per enemy hit by the blast, up to a maximum of five (100%), meaning 7120. But almost all elementalists have some healing power, so let's see here... assuming you have a group of five enemies and you hit them all:
100 healing = 7180
300 healing = 7300
500 healing = 7420
700 healing = 7540
1000 healing = 7720

For this skill to reach 15000 healing, we'd need... a little over 13000 healing power.
The fifth skill on Tome of Courage is the Heal. It ignores all healing modifiers, so a zerker guard will be just as good with it as a cleric guard. The only real good thing about Arcane Brilliance is that you can use it with Water Fields and it has a 25s CD. But no skill, save Defiant Stance and only if you're facing something with one-shot abilities (Lupicus, legendary defender), can come close to that amount.


* Anyone know if it's 20% of the base or 20% of the base+healing power?

#19 davadude

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 05:53 PM

View PostMjölner, on 12 December 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

* Anyone know if it's 20% of the base or 20% of the base+healing power?

20% + healing power.
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#20 Daesu

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:35 PM

Since skill points can be translated to gold in this game, which is why they felt that they needed a "skill point sink".

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2013 - 07:36 PM.


#21 Phenn

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:47 PM

All I know is that I'm asking all Necros to boycott the new heal skill until we get something actually useful there. A stealth-buff to Signet of the Locust made it a better heal (up to 8k heal/siphon) than the actual heal skill.

So please, don't buy the Signet of Vampirism.

#22 Malganis

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 09:13 PM

I figured I'd try a spirts build with the change to Spirits Unbound to the master tier.   I slotted in the Water Spirit along with the Frost Spirit.  I feel like they left a zero off the end of the healing amount.    A chance for 800 healing, when you're at 1/4 health or less, is hopelessly underpowered and had me switching back to Healing Spring or Heal as One immediately.

#23 Mjölner

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:46 AM

View PostMalganis, on 12 December 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

I figured I'd try a spirts build with the change to Spirits Unbound to the master tier.   I slotted in the Water Spirit along with the Frost Spirit.  I feel like they left a zero off the end of the healing amount. A chance for 800 healing, when you're at 1/4 health or less, is hopelessly underpowered and had me switching back to Healing Spring or Heal as One immediately.

I've got a non-spirit Ranger (A Manly Melee Ranger build :P) and I tried the spirit out in the harpy fractal. Just... wow. If it didn't get blasted to smithereens by the ogre, it was the fire shaman's random lava fields that got it. I noticed next to no healing, so promptly switched back to Troll unguent/Healing Spring for the rest of the fractals. Tbh, I was more disappointed than anything else, since I really like the idea.

#24 Minion

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 12:05 PM

Izzy has this fear of powercreep and overpowering new skills, so he goes out of his way to nerf everything to death before they're even out of the beta stage.

"Oh good, we can give the impression we're making new skills and it won't affect the metagame. Everyone is happy!"

#25 pumpkin pie

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 02:10 PM

/sarcasm, TADA, why don't ArenaNet patches this new skill into everyone skill bar come next patch, so we have 2 healing skills :D  TADA


on a serious note:
To be honest, your concerns are no concern at all. Lets see how good this new skill is gonna be because I hate not having choices and then every one of my toon has to use this new healing skills leaving the rest of the healing skills moot. then i might start to make some noise.

#26 Di-Dorval

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 04:21 PM

Well having skill tier was retarded in the first place. Those new heal skills are just pushing the idea to new heights.

If they are really better than the other heal skill in most situations it's an issue.

If they are not better but still worth much more than the other heal skill it's also an issue.

It feels like a cheap way to try to balance the game by forcing a mold and adding a skillpoint sink.

#27 Andemius

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 05:01 PM

Revised my opinon of the guardian heal, works well if you're dps.

#28 AsgarZigel

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 06:13 PM

They clearly made them cost so much as a skill point sink, since everyone who plays for a while accumulates tons of them. I assume they added the cost to PVP too because of the upcoming PVP-PVE unification or what you'd want to call it. (You will earn XP in PVP in the future, I think)

So it's understandable, but a pretty bad solution imo, because:

- the guys who play so much that they have a lot of skillpoints won't even feel it, since 25 is still relatively tame
- it punishes new players and people who play lots of characters regularly
- the heal skills, from what I've seen so far, are well designed at least, but they don't feel special enough to warrant the extra price tag, making it feel arbitrary (I can at least see a case for a special event skill like the antitoxin spray)
- the cost in PVP goes directly against ArenaNets design philosophy regarding PVP, but what else is new

So yeah... I like the adding the new skills and I see what they were trying to do, but I think making them so expensive does more harm than good, for the reason detailed above.

#29 ilr

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 09:45 PM

When the hell did everything shift away from "Let's make useful stuff like they'd have in MTG"  --- to whatever the hell they're doing now where 'A.P' and daily participation trophy accumulation is somehow considered END GAME ???   This makes about as much sense as their "Story" right now.

#30 El Duderino

El Duderino

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:12 AM

View Postilr, on 15 December 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

When the hell did everything shift away from "Let's make useful stuff like they'd have in MTG"  --- to whatever the hell they're doing now where 'A.P' and daily participation trophy accumulation is somehow considered END GAME ???   This makes about as much sense as their "Story" right now.

That thread is actually over here ---> http://www.guildwars...t/page__st__330 :P




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