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Did Anet Mishandle the Final Boss?


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#1 Slowpoke

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 04:36 AM

I mean Zhaitan never directly showed before the final campaign, all we fought was his minions, that was ok because we knew his threat through his minions. But in the end game dungeon we still spent most of the time to fight his minions and his fight was kinda, too short and too easy. I think maybe on the next Elder Dragon, Anet should let them get more involved with the story directly, also make the final campaign mainly focus on themselves like they did to Shiro Tagachi in GW1?

#2 AsgarZigel

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 04:45 AM

The fight was cut short due to time pressure / budget constrains. It's still possible they will revamp the dungeon and give us a proper last boss fight at some point, but nobody knows whether they will actually do it.

#3 Slowpoke

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 04:57 AM

View PostAsgarZigel, on 20 December 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

The fight was cut short due to time pressure / budget constrains. It's still possible they will revamp the dungeon and give us a proper last boss fight at some point, but nobody knows whether they will actually do it.

I think all the previous fights in the Arah story mode was necessary because we already had enough fights with them before.

Edited by Slowpoke, 20 December 2013 - 04:57 AM.


#4 Phenn

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:01 AM

Pretty much all of PvE was cut short due to time/etc. Or at least the good parts were. So much potential...

#5 Robsy128

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 07:23 AM

Yeah, I think there was meant to be more to the final boss than that... you know, like actually going down and landing on an island, where a very weak (but still powerful compared to us) Zhaitan would be. Once they set a release date, they had to wrap it up and now most of the teams are working on various things for the future. Hopefully they'll revamp the dungeon, or make it part of the living story - "Zhaitan is alive!"

We'll just have to see how it goes.

#6 nerfandderf

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:05 PM

have to say never made to the dragon.

that was the last thing to do but - to find a group when the rest of the story wasnt. Then for 1.5-2h for a dungeon.
Then orr and arah had to be open before you could go.

all bad horrible design mistakes that I never got to finish the story.

Edited by nerfandderf, 20 December 2013 - 12:06 PM.


#7 davadude

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 07:43 PM

It's obvious that Zhaitan's fight was cut short.  I really hope they revamp him soon, maybe with a more direct battle.
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#8 ilr

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 08:05 AM

View Postnerfandderf, on 20 December 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

have to say never made to the dragon.

that was the last thing to do but - to find a group when the rest of the story wasnt. Then for 1.5-2h for a dungeon.
Then orr and arah had to be open before you could go.

all bad horrible design mistakes that I never got to finish the story.

Well it was mostly b/c it was a reallllllly drawn out dungeon .. so no one who knew what they were doing wanted to do it twice.  Just like the notorious "Path 4" explorable version of the same dungeon.  Getting TO cursed shores wasn't the bad part.  Transitioning from a pure single-player campaign to "5-men required" finale that wasn't even fun the FIRST time around was just the worst possible direction to go with it.   They really should have stuck to their "Open World Mega boss" Design and just made Zhaitan a daily zone event with the dungeon itself being completely optional & much more condensed;  therefore heavier on plot and lighter on raw Minion-DPS'ing.  (there is such a thing as too much killing when it starts to feel like filler)

Edited by ilr, 22 December 2013 - 08:07 AM.


#9 Featherman

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 03:14 PM

Long Answer: Yes
Short Answer: Quite a lot of build up to spam 2.

Edited by Featherman, 22 December 2013 - 03:28 PM.


#10 xarallei

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:51 PM

I'm shocked they released Zhaitan the way they did. They should have perhaps had an Arah dungeon but left out Zhaitan. Then later on in the year they could have released a patch that adds in a special Zhaitan path. If it wasn't ready they shouldn't have pushed it through at all.

#11 Jentari

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 03:05 AM

View Postxarallei, on 22 December 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

I'm shocked they released Zhaitan the way they did. They should have perhaps had an Arah dungeon but left out Zhaitan. Then later on in the year they could have released a patch that adds in a special Zhaitan path. If it wasn't ready they shouldn't have pushed it through at all.

They pushed it through because they new that within days of release there would be players doing it.  They figured better to have something then to have nothing and people throw a fit because there is nothing.

#12 Slowpoke

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 03:28 AM

View Postxarallei, on 22 December 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

I'm shocked they released Zhaitan the way they did. They should have perhaps had an Arah dungeon but left out Zhaitan. Then later on in the year they could have released a patch that adds in a special Zhaitan path. If it wasn't ready they shouldn't have pushed it through at all.

Actually the previous fights were all unnecessary, they should just focus on the dragon rather than make more minions.

Risen Knight, Risen Wraith, Mouth of Zhaitan, dragon champions, we already fought all these before, why bring them up again? Just let us focus on Zhaitan.

View PostJentari, on 24 December 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

They pushed it through because they new that within days of release there would be players doing it.  They figured better to have something then to have nothing and people throw a fit because there is nothing.

But why did they make so many mobs in the dungeon? I thought something like Shiro/Abaddon/Great Destroyer fight would have been seen.

#13 Jentari

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 05:34 AM

View PostSlowpoke, on 24 December 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

Actually the previous fights were all unnecessary, they should just focus on the dragon rather than make more minions.

Risen Knight, Risen Wraith, Mouth of Zhaitan, dragon champions, we already fought all these before, why bring them up again? Just let us focus on Zhaitan.



But why did they make so many mobs in the dungeon? I thought something like Shiro/Abaddon/Great Destroyer fight would have been seen.

I think it was to give the impression of that last fight, getting thru the minions in order to face the boss.

I also think it was a fast and easy way to extend that fight without doing really anything to the boss.

Again they rushed it and made it drag on so the player feels it will be awesome, then boom the bottom falls out.

#14 rukia

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 07:02 AM

Zhaitan? Don't remember him.

#15 Slowpoke

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 03:19 AM

View PostJentari, on 24 December 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

I think it was to give the impression of that last fight, getting thru the minions in order to face the boss.

I also think it was a fast and easy way to extend that fight without doing really anything to the boss.

Again they rushed it and made it drag on so the player feels it will be awesome, then boom the bottom falls out.

It's a bit similar to the Lich fight in GW1, too many trash mobs and the boss fight is a joke, but at least we never fought the Titans(only 1 and it doesn't attack) before so it was something new.

#16 Bryant Again

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 06:59 PM

In my opinion, the personal story as a whole starts to feel 'rushed' once you're out of the 'personal' part of it. It starts at around level 30 once it becomes clear that what you chose for your character at the start essentially 'ends' and you begin the order quests. Then there's even less choice and player input once the Pact is established. Then it ends with Arah SM which leaves a whole lot to be left desired.

Maybe a lot of it was due to preconceptions, but the idea of having a huge questchain surrounding the White Mantle and my parents' death - or perhaps a bittersweet search for my sister - sounded way more appealing than the end product.

#17 Jentari

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 11:41 PM

View PostBryant Again, on 26 December 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

In my opinion, the personal story as a whole starts to feel 'rushed' once you're out of the 'personal' part of it. It starts at around level 30 once it becomes clear that what you chose for your character at the start essentially 'ends' and you begin the order quests. Then there's even less choice and player input once the Pact is established. Then it ends with Arah SM which leaves a whole lot to be left desired.

Maybe a lot of it was due to preconceptions, but the idea of having a huge questchain surrounding the White Mantle and my parents' death - or perhaps a bittersweet search for my sister - sounded way more appealing than the end product.

I agree that once you hit the orders quest line it just kinda slows down.  The choices you made in the beginning have had no effect at that level and they really meant nothing.  

Plus add in that you can do all of your personal story solo and then you hit the final step and now forced to find a group.  I am not sure if this was their idea to get people used to being in a group or not but I still dont like the fact that you must be in a group for that step.  They need to fix that so it is able to be done solo and maybe have the fight against Zhaitan as one of the other paths of the Arah dungeon.

Make it so your last personal story step is needed to gain access to the dungeon where you and your party can face Zhaitan in a better fight then what it is now.

#18 Slowpoke

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 05:12 AM

View PostBryant Again, on 26 December 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

In my opinion, the personal story as a whole starts to feel 'rushed' once you're out of the 'personal' part of it. It starts at around level 30 once it becomes clear that what you chose for your character at the start essentially 'ends' and you begin the order quests. Then there's even less choice and player input once the Pact is established. Then it ends with Arah SM which leaves a whole lot to be left desired.

Maybe a lot of it was due to preconceptions, but the idea of having a huge questchain surrounding the White Mantle and my parents' death - or perhaps a bittersweet search for my sister - sounded way more appealing than the end product.

Yeah, compare to SWTOR's class story, you didn't have much choices to build up your character.

#19 Fizzypop

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 08:32 PM

Definitely. They should have kept him the main villain for much longer and released it much later. Honestly, more areas of the world should have been opened up before we defeated him. It was all too easy and too quick. IMO scarlet is actually a bigger threat than Zhaitan, which feels so wrong. She has stuck around much longer and has been hard to bring down. Why wasn't Zhaitan this way? Why were we able to kill him at release? Especially when so much of his lore is connected to other areas of the map that have yet to be explored.

Edited by Fizzypop, 28 December 2013 - 08:33 PM.


#20 Illein

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 10:43 PM

Only if you had a threadbare shred of hope left that this could be anything short of a complete letdown.

In 6 of 8 characters I absolutely loved playing the first twenty levels of the game. They have intriguing (albeit silly at times) characters who I actually care for after only a few hours of gameplay, a solid scaffolding of a story I can brachiate through just fine and an immersive environment to lose yourself in.

Absolutely adore that part of the game, I sit down whenever I play them and read through the conversations again, despite having read them a couple of times by now, watch the cut-scenes without ESCing the hell out of them and thoroughly enjoy myself.

Afterwards though it goes from 'whatever' to 'Jesus ♥♥♥♥ing Christ' and that miscreant spawn of a birch-pollen allergy just takes every ambition you had for it to turn back to its old virtues and crushes them right that moment he gets Caladbolg into his gnarly mitts.

Those last 60 levels are unfortunately quite atrocious and even the collected works of Uwe Boll's filmography still somehow manage to spit on its head from way up there, when it comes to a single redeeming quality about it.

That it cumulates in the premeditated character-assassination of an elder dragon just puts the cherry on top of it all...

It's almost ironic that the only part about the living story that feels genuinely awesome are the events around Job-o-Tron and Marcello. The ironic part being that I loved reading about it, but never even once actually caught up on it throughout the living story.

Which might also be my own fault, don't get me wrong. I guess I so vehemently expected it to be bad by now, that I even missed up on the few pearls one could dig up, if one only shovelled away enough crap to find it

PS.: I don't doubt the writing staff of Arena Net could do better, it just feels that they are in such a tight schedule- and budgetary corset, that their creativity barely gets to breathe.

Edited by Illein, 28 December 2013 - 10:50 PM.


#21 sanctuaire

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:13 AM

that 's true, it all felt downhill after the 'personal' story... it was like 3 disjointed arcs with little to no relevance to each other:
so no you rescued your sister ... so now what?
so now you joined an order, and the story was building up destiny's edge ...
only to be be completely sidestepped out of the blue with this trehearne mess.
don't even get started with LS-scarlett :(

its just funny how one of the 'baddest' elder dragons is much more easier than
already easy sub dungeon bosses. the way to him felt padded, and the final fight
consisting of  pressing cannon fire was a major let-down.


.

#22 pumpkin pie

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 01:39 AM

Yes they did.

Final Boss should have been a Dynamic event like what Tequalt is now, only more epic. It would make a lot of sense to make Zhaitan a Dynamic Event because that is what we do now, after completing the final personal story, going around Tyria to hunt down dragons.


Edit,
If the slaying of Zhaitan were to be added, our personal story don't have to be "corrected" at all, simply adding a new Zhaitan Dynamic Event to the Orr area, like all the other dragon it will attack periodically.

#23 Robsy128

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 01:53 PM

What I want to know is: could this be Zhaitan after he fell from the rocky tower at the end of the dungeon? Or was it a planned but never executed dragon dungeon?

Posted Image

#24 Thorfinnr

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:20 PM

View PostIllein, on 28 December 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Those last 60 levels are unfortunately quite atrocious and even the collected works of Uwe Boll's filmography still somehow manage to spit on its head from way up there, when it comes to a single redeeming quality about it.

Major props on the Uwe Boll reference, but I don't think they are THAT bad, lol. :)

#25 Illein

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 11:01 PM

View PostThorfinnr, on 02 January 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

Major props on the Uwe Boll reference, but I don't think they are THAT bad, lol. :)

That was obviously hyperboll, there's a special place reserved in hell for mutineers and Uwe Boll exclusively. *shakes fist*

#26 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 09:53 PM

Yes. To be honest I wasn't angry with how Zhaitan was handled as an entity since the puppetmaster falling quietly in one very powerful coup does seem realistic but the truth is that Zhaitan never seemed "intelligent"; he raised a bunch of zombies, attacked a port, got driven off that port, and somehow despite having zombies all over the Maguuma Jungle never did anything about it. Was totally cool with trying to take one part of the world, failing, and then just sort of giving up!

Zhaitan didn't make enough tactical manuveurs, he didn't try to flee, he didn't attack from his strongest point, when he took damage he made no effort to do anything other than desperately act, and honestly he never really used the fact that he has an entire army across the world to much vantage. His Risen seem so ... ... ... dumb. :(

#27 Wookie4726

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:23 AM

Zhaitan should have been an event chain similar to the current Tequatl event but even more involved.

Prior to release I envisioned the final boss fight would comprise the entire final zone or even multiple zones in which map points would need to be controlled in order to "weaken" Zhaitan and/or his minions or otherwise make his stronghold accessible by players. Victory over the Zhaitan event chain would provide perhaps a chest reward as well as a world buff (or maybe a player buff for those present in a set of predetermined areas needed to successfully complete the chain) which would last for 24hrs or until the event chain failed and Zhaitan's minions were victorious.

Yes, the Zhaitan encounter was very disappointing. I recommend Anet take a good hard look at the current "Living World" ideas and instead of implementing inconsequential foes, who no one cares about, they incorporate the original bad guy of the game and flesh him out to bring more meaning to the world of GW2.

Just my $.02.

#28 derkol

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 12:40 PM

Problem with having him as a dynamic event would be the same as we had with teq...many many over flows for one server, many people guesting to the servers thst could actually beat the dynamic event and of course if you wanted to do it you'd be sitting in the map an hour before the event actually started just to be sure you got in and no overflow. But I did feel disappointment in all that story building up on my first play through, all that thrill when you reach Orr, get into the story for an hour and a half and boss dropped in like 5 minutes.

Would love to have it re vamped.

#29 davadude

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 04:43 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 30 December 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

What I want to know is: could this be Zhaitan after he fell from the rocky tower at the end of the dungeon? Or was it a planned but never executed dragon dungeon?

Posted Image

I've never found this place in-game.  Has anyone found it in-game, or is it only from the original reveal trailer of 2009?
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#30 ExplosivePinata

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:50 AM

:)

Edited by ExplosivePinata, 10 January 2014 - 04:44 AM.





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