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Twisted Marionette - A step in the right direction?


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#1 Andemius

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 07:30 PM

Hi all.

So, I'm hoping you've had a chance to try out the new temp world event, and formulated your own opinions on it.

Personally, my reaction is that it's a nice change. Seems like a mix of tower defense and the assault gametype from unreal. To me, it's the first boss which feels like a real boss fight, as opposed to our usual dps spam.

However, it seems to me that the event is suffering from "Tequatlisis" (as I have decided to call it). Due to the amount of people required, and the fact that you are once again relying heavily on the competence of random people, it seems that chances of succeeding are slim, even if you yourself are good. It is disappointing to see 3 out of 5 lanes fail when their turn comes round, then wondering what they were doing.

Complaints aside, I think it's a step in the right direction away from our traditional dps spam bosses, since it requires a little (not much) more thinking.

So, whats your thoughts?

#2 Naevius

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 07:49 PM

3 runs so far have failed with 4/5 chains done - but I still enjoy it. No doubt by the 20th failure I'll be changing my tune.

Really, it is no worse than similar big raids in other games, it just is a new thing in GW2.

(Even Teq requires only a few competent people + lots of bodies; this requires almost everyone to kind of be decent.)

#3 Fernling306

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:02 PM

I still don't like the randomness of bad people. This fight is so beyond ridiculously easy, but it is still failed because of the lack of any kind of coordination. This type of thing will never be able to replace organized raids.

#4 Satenia

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:10 PM

Personally, I think the event is awesome IF done on a properly organized main-server. But with the current guesting/overflow system, that is a pretty big "if"...

Until groups the size these events require can be reliably formed without spawn-camping 1h+ prior to the actual event, I would actually prefer they stick to smaller-scale stuff. I'm fairly sure this could be fun as well with 3 lanes and half the people or whatever.

#5 Gyre

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:21 PM

GW2 does a miserable job of teaching basic mechanics and the evidence is this event.  This is what happens when you take people in PvE straight from a buttonbash champ train to a new shiny boss.  Anet doesn't seem to understand that they fostered a segment of their game that is so casual they are simply incompetant and move like locusts from event to event.  If a group of 5 or more players can't handle a single champion that tells you how to kill it in less than 2 minutes the whole experiment here has been an utter failure.

#6 Desild

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:34 PM

Only if the right direction is straight towards the edge of a cliff. Or a staircase. Then we could say that yes, it's a step in the right direction.

This would be awesome if they stopped doing these silly world events and focused more on instanced content that mattered. All I got from killing the marionette was a couple of green items and lots of keys. That in turn give me more green items.

You know ArenaNet, when back in GW1 I asked you for more Green item drops, this was NOT what I meant!

#7 MazingerZ

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:38 PM

View PostFernling306, on 23 January 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

I still don't like the randomness of bad people. This fight is so beyond ridiculously easy, but it is still failed because of the lack of any kind of coordination. This type of thing will never be able to replace organized raids.

GW2 really should examine how WoW's doing LFR.  It's pretty much the level of difficulty and coordination they should want in these types of events.

Ultimately one of the biggest differences is that with LFR, you can just pick yourself back up and do it again.  These types of events is teeth-grinding frustration because of the level of pre-event time that gets eaten up just waiting for it to pop.
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#8 davadude

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:45 PM

View PostSatenia, on 23 January 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

Until groups the size these events require can be reliably formed without spawn-camping 1h+ prior to the actual event, I would actually prefer they stick to smaller-scale stuff. I'm fairly sure this could be fun as well with 3 lanes and half the people or whatever.

You bring up a great point.  The event is great fun, but requires too many people to scale correctly.  It should be limited to 2 lanes at first, scale to 3 with 60 players, 4 lanes with 75 players, and 5 lanes with 90+ players.  This allows people to plan it out, perform adequately, and also create cool tactics with the warp cooldown.

That, and they need to make instructions more clear for events.  The starter events have excellent descriptions ("approach cows and feed them hay to get them to follow you")... but meta events have no descriptions at all?
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#9 Brandon the Don

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:08 PM

View Postdavadude, on 23 January 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

That, and they need to make instructions more clear for events.  The starter events have excellent descriptions ("approach cows and feed them hay to get them to follow you")... but meta events have no descriptions at all?

In all honesty though:
  • Kill stuff
  • Run through portal and kill stuff
  • Kill more stuff
The events are not that hard to get... Maybe the boss mechanics are for some overflows - but as far as I've seen today (and recorded), it was not a big deal really...

Tequatl and the Worm, or so I've been told, are much harder and require way more information - which you get as well...

#10 Illein

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:11 PM

View PostAndemius, on 23 January 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

Hi all.

So, I'm hoping you've had a chance to try out the new temp world event, and formulated your own opinions on it.

Personally, my reaction is that it's a nice change. Seems like a mix of tower defense and the assault gametype from unreal. To me, it's the first boss which feels like a real boss fight, as opposed to our usual dps spam.


You mean when you stand on that lane and DPS spam the hell out of those Twisted Nightmares? Or when you get on one of the platforms and DPS the living shit out of those champion mobs on them with TINY twists (do it from behind, do it after you dragged his ass through a land mine, do it from range, do it to as many mobs as possible on the 5th chain)?

Cause don't get me wrong, I like that particular event because so far it's fun, even though it's already on farm pretty much after 2 days (but then, the Wurm is far more challenging it seems, so that's fair) - but if it's ONE thing, it's a DPS spam.

Edited by Illein, 23 January 2014 - 09:19 PM.


#11 davadude

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:22 PM

View PostBrandon the Don, on 23 January 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

In all honesty though:
  • Kill stuff
  • Run through portal and kill stuff
  • Kill more stuff
The events are not that hard to get... Maybe the boss mechanics are for some overflows - but as far as I've seen today (and recorded), it was not a big deal really...

Tequatl and the Worm, or so I've been told, are much harder and require way more information - which you get as well...

My second comment was indeed aimed more at the Wurm (hence the generalization "metas").  ;)
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#12 Brandon the Don

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:34 PM

View Postdavadude, on 23 January 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

My second comment was indeed aimed more at the Wurm (hence the generalization "metas").  ;)

I misunderstood you then, sorry...

Though I gotta be honest, I did not do the worm, since those events events are simply not my cup of tea...
At Tequatl though, last time I checked, you did get sufficient info as to what to do though? Not completely sure, it is a genuine question...

#13 Lediath

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 10:01 PM

10 tries total, 7 successes in a row after the first 3 failures on SoR
really really enjoying the event, takes a moderate amount of coordination, but can be done w/o TS or Raidcall



on a related note, 150+ doing wurm on SoR annnnnnd not even close

#14 Featherman

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 10:15 PM

Gimmick bosses. Once you figure out the gimmick the execution of the fights boils down to spamming DPS. The one saving grace is that these bosses are temporary so there wouldn't likely be a point where they're treated like pit stops in champion trains.

#15 MazingerZ

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 10:28 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 23 January 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

Gimmick bosses. Once you figure out the gimmick the execution of the fights boils down to spamming DPS. The one saving grace is that these bosses are temporary so there wouldn't likely be a point where they're treated like pit stops in champion trains.

Most fights in MMOs are gimmicks in one shape or another.  The point usually becomes how well-coordinated things need to be to make the gimmick work.  For instance, Thaddius in WoW required players to group up and be aware of what their debuff was (positive/negative) to beat the fight.  Magtheridon's Lair required precise timing to activate the cubes to disable his wipe ability.  Required additional situational awareness to keep people from killing those assigned to the cubes.  High Warlord Naj'entus impaled players and had to be freed by other players, obtaining the impaling spine.  The spine was then used to pierce a shield that would otherwise allow him to regain full-health (prolonging the fight and the enrage timer).

Mind you, none of these gimmicks necessitates a tank or a healer.  They require a certain level of co-dependency amongst the participating players beyond splitting or redirecting a zerg.  By and large, the entire point of a tank these days is boss-positioning, which can in theory be properly done with proper push/pull mechanics if it weren't for Defiant.
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#16 Swoopeh

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 11:27 PM

So far I haven't been able to get on the main server at all for Marionette, even when zoning 1+ hour before the event, and all overflows have been a fail because usually at least 1 platform in lane 3+ wiped on their champ. It's not a particularly hard event and should be far easier to do with a random zerg than Teq but still too much for overflows it seems. That said I still enjoy trying, just the waiting is annoying so I just park and go do something else.

View PostMazingerZ, on 23 January 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

GW2 really should examine how WoW's doing LFR.  It's pretty much the level of difficulty and coordination they should want in these types of events.

It's interesting actually, from what I've observed in my WoW years is that as the content gets easier so will people's skill plateau lower and vice versa. Something that's directly linked to the way in human nature we like to take the road of least resistance. That's why 25 man LFR pretty much comes down to 1 proper tank, 1-2 proper healers and 1-3 proper DPS and the rest is just AFK or completely clueless, faceplanting their keyboard :P Here's a random WoL log to demonstrate.

In a way I prefer the higher base difficulty in GW2 because in the end it requires people to step up their game and lowering the difficulty will most likely not make a difference. Unless you make it as mindless as LFR which just makes it boring from the start (and as we know one of the many complaints had been that world bosses are just loot pinatas). So I won't fault them that, even though it's frustrating when 5 people failing can screw up the entire event.

#17 Andemius

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 12:38 AM

View PostIllein, on 23 January 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

You mean when you stand on that lane and DPS spam the hell out of those Twisted Nightmares? Or when you get on one of the platforms and DPS the living shit out of those champion mobs on them with TINY twists (do it from behind, do it after you dragged his ass through a land mine, do it from range, do it to as many mobs as possible on the 5th chain)?

Cause don't get me wrong, I like that particular event because so far it's fun, even though it's already on farm pretty much after 2 days (but then, the Wurm is far more challenging it seems, so that's fair) - but if it's ONE thing, it's a DPS spam.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. I mean to say that it is more engaging (if only slightly) than most of our world events. You do have to move around and prioritize targets (fast moving watchwork swarms when everyone else is targeting the champ). Mobility becomes more important when you actually get in, as dodging at key moments is pretty essential.

I also agree that the issue of having 5 lanes makes it even more difficult considering overflows, 3 lanes may have been more practical.

#18 Karuro

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 01:10 AM

I believe it's a fun event, much more enjoyable than the Tri-Wurm and Tequatl.
Those 2 are just painful.

#19 Echou

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 01:56 AM

Instead of an infant who spits out everything parents try to feed him, I chew, nod and give this update a thumbs up. After a couple of misses we are actually progressing in the LS. We finally know something about Briar and we are going on the offensive (kinda, I hope). Marionette fight was well done; the objectives and strategies are clear enough for zergs (read: idiots) to understand without turning the fight into the Thomas the Championengine and the music made a good ambiance. The wurm fight should be adjusted a bit (nothing big, just make the timers more forgiving). You really can't expect a bunch of unorganized dumbos following a blue taco to do such herculean tasks such as listening to the commanders and do more than mash auto.

More Marionette, Raids down to one/month, permanent dungeons and Briar's head on a pike. That's the list I'm sending to Santa.

View PostIllein, on 23 January 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

You mean when you stand on that lane and DPS spam the hell out of those Twisted Nightmares? Or when you get on one of the platforms and DPS the living shit out of those champion mobs on them with TINY twists (do it from behind, do it after you dragged his ass through a land mine, do it from range, do it to as many mobs as possible on the 5th chain)?

Cause don't get me wrong, I like that particular event because so far it's fun, even though it's already on farm pretty much after 2 days (but then, the Wurm is far more challenging it seems, so that's fair) - but if it's ONE thing, it's a DPS spam.
A writ of Challenge for you: describe a perfect *open* world fight.

#20 Featherman

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 01:56 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 23 January 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

Most fights in MMOs are gimmicks in one shape or another.  The point usually becomes how well-coordinated things need to be to make the gimmick work.  For instance, Thaddius in WoW required players to group up and be aware of what their debuff was (positive/negative) to beat the fight.  Magtheridon's Lair required precise timing to activate the cubes to disable his wipe ability.  Required additional situational awareness to keep people from killing those assigned to the cubes.  High Warlord Naj'entus impaled players and had to be freed by other players, obtaining the impaling spine.  The spine was then used to pierce a shield that would otherwise allow him to regain full-health (prolonging the fight and the enrage timer).

Mind you, none of these gimmicks necessitates a tank or a healer.  They require a certain level of co-dependency amongst the participating players beyond splitting or redirecting a zerg.  By and large, the entire point of a tank these days is boss-positioning, which can in theory be properly done with proper push/pull mechanics if it weren't for Defiant.
I suppose, but I wouldn't call that a strong point of MMO design. I guess what hurts these bosses is that they have obscure rules and require players to be precise in their adherence to those rules. It makes the most important facet of open world events, where players can jump in, counter-intuitive as it takes only a few players who don't understand the event to ruin it for everyone else.

#21 davadude

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 05:56 AM

View PostBrandon the Don, on 23 January 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

I misunderstood you then, sorry...

Though I gotta be honest, I did not do the worm, since those events events are simply not my cup of tea...
At Tequatl though, last time I checked, you did get sufficient info as to what to do though? Not completely sure, it is a genuine question...

The wurm events have no instructions when you need to fight the wurms.  Each wurm has its own mechanics that must be played with before you can damage it, and it is not evident from anywhere that killing one head causes the timer to be depleted to almost nothing.
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#22 Nyid

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 06:09 AM

View Postdavadude, on 24 January 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

The wurm events have no instructions when you need to fight the wurms.  Each wurm has its own mechanics that must be played with before you can damage it, and it is not evident from anywhere that killing one head causes the timer to be depleted to almost nothing.

TTS has had the closest attempt on killing the Great Jungle Wurm. http://ttsgamers.com...-decaptitation/

Based on the video, it appears that each of the three heads have to more or less be killed in unison. If the wurm heads are not defeated in a 1 minute window, they completely regenerate. After all three wurm heads are killed, they become severed heads and once again start at full health. I haven't yet determined if there is a separate timer associated with this event or if it's a continuation of the former event timer. TTS managed to get all three heads down to about half health before running out of time. Based on strategy discussion it seems that the wurms are heavily armored while they possess the first half of their health, after which they become more susceptible to damage. Overall I find this event to be excessively demanding and unrealistic. Content should not be this difficult unless a substantial rare reward is offered. Unfortunately this is not the case. The chance at uncommon exotic skins and some ascended gear with glowing aura (not even full sets, that's the worst part in my opinion) is about all there is in terms of potential loot.

#23 davadude

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 10:38 AM

View PostNyid, on 24 January 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

TTS has had the closest attempt on killing the Great Jungle Wurm. http://ttsgamers.com...-decaptitation/

Based on the video, it appears that each of the three heads have to more or less be killed in unison. If the wurm heads are not defeated in a 1 minute window, they completely regenerate. After all three wurm heads are killed, they become severed heads and once again start at full health. I haven't yet determined if there is a separate timer associated with this event or if it's a continuation of the former event timer. TTS managed to get all three heads down to about half health before running out of time. Based on strategy discussion it seems that the wurms are heavily armored while they possess the first half of their health, after which they become more susceptible to damage. Overall I find this event to be excessively demanding and unrealistic.

Thanks for showing me this, first of all.

I must say, the event concept (challenging content that requires serious coordination and teamwork) is good.  The implementation is good, too.  The problem lies with the scaling (for this event. Tequatl, and Mario).  They need to make the marionette scaling the way I mentioned it earlier on in this thread.  Tequatl and the wurm need another type of scaling (due to them being direct fights):
  • Both events need conditions to be completed before you can directly attack the boss with a viable amount of damage.
  • The required handlings (20 kegs, 2 minutes of defense, etc,) should not scale.  Amount of enemies and type of enemies (veteran to champion, champion to varied elite, etc), should.
  • The actual scaling part of the events should be the boss' damage resistance.  Each boss in the game has its own damage resistance, its why the Golem Mark II dies after 5 minutes, and why Tequatl does not.  When there are 10 players, the boss damage resistance should be 10%, 25 players, 25%, 50 players 100%, etc.  This way, an event can be completed within the time limit with a variable amount of players.
For example, currently, regardless of players, all three wurmheads have a resistance of about 150% (datamined it out of the previous client build, I'm not entirely sure).  This means that you need an average of 100 players to even be able to take it down currently, if all players perfectly target and do pre-conditions.  If they make this scale between 50% and 150% depending on the player count, a team of 10 players could take it out at 50% within the time limit.  Not comfortably (it isn't supposed to be), but it can be done on a viable way, where teamwork and coordination are rewarded.

It's a shame Arenanet has not yet implemented this scaling.  Thanks to Guild Wars 2's programming style, it would not be challenging (simply take player count in generated event bubble/area, which already exists, and use an "if-then" statement for scaling amounts).

Edited by davadude, 24 January 2014 - 10:39 AM.

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#24 Illein

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 10:48 AM

View PostEchou, on 24 January 2014 - 01:56 AM, said:

Instead of an infant who spits out everything parents try to feed him, I chew, nod and give this update a thumbs up. After a couple of misses we are actually progressing in the LS. We finally know something about Briar and we are going on the offensive (kinda, I hope). Marionette fight was well done; the objectives and strategies are clear enough for zergs (read: idiots) to understand without turning the fight into the Thomas the Championengine and the music made a good ambiance. The wurm fight should be adjusted a bit (nothing big, just make the timers more forgiving). You really can't expect a bunch of unorganized dumbos following a blue taco to do such herculean tasks such as listening to the commanders and do more than mash auto.

More Marionette, Raids down to one/month, permanent dungeons and Briar's head on a pike. That's the list I'm sending to Santa.


A writ of Challenge for you: describe a perfect *open* world fight.

Don't get me wrong, I quite enjoy that I actually catch on to some of the story that previously only existed in the minds of ANet staff writers, but I thought the whole ordeal of shedding no light on it throughout a year and then dropping a convenient journal of the villain's mischievous misdeeds was a lazy fallback from a story telling perspective.

That said, the very brief living story instance with Destiny's Edge 2.0 was probably my most favourite bit of the LS in terms of character building and exposition. You simply get an idea of who those characters are and what they hold dear.

Now to your issues challenge, I'll gladly oblige.

The things I saw so far I generally approved of:

Separating the zerg into smaller groups. Not only does it seem to help with the lag, but it also puts more spotlight upon each individual member more so than one big blob, yet still enables basic teamwork to be essential (in theory).

Introducing a form of Tower-Defence to those open world encounters.

The things I think could be subject to further improvements:

My focal point of critique was the relentless DPS button mashing. I'd much rather have it be an interplay of action and reaction. To elaborate on that I'll point out a view mechanics that would fall under this category.

For example: Boon application/Boon Stripping, Condition Application/Condition Removal, Burst Damage/Gradual Damage, Movement/Impairment, OHKOs/Dodges.

So from the examples I've given it's pretty clear what direction I'd like to head. I'd like all those things to find a niche for themselves in dedicated open world encounters.

If we take the Marionette as a prototype, all or some of those points I mentioned could have wormed their way into this encounter almost seamlessly.

Say Twisted Nightmares popped out of the portal with the following attributes: Nigh physical immunity, boon stacked, ONE TIME 25 defiance stack-mechanic.

Now you'd have to strip those boons as fast as possible via Thieves, Mesmers, Necromancers to slow them down and enable your damage to unfold slightly.

If you also chip down on those defiance stacks by the time they reach your barricades they'll become more vulnerable to physical damage and only between those barricades occasional air strikes occur, so your best shot at killing the Twisted Nightmare will be to keep it between those barricades by means of mass CC for as long as you possibly can.

For that you'd have various viable methods: Static Fields, Earth walls, Guardian walls, immbolizes, stuns, dazes, knockdowns, knockbacks - the whole range of abilities really.

It obviously would be too much effort for the Marionette as it is only temporarily within the game, but I just took that particular example because it's the most recent. That's only the lane phase, so you could create all sorts of challenges beyond that or even cause further strife by enemy air crafts doing essentially the same as the players' allies, littering a lane with air strike telegraphs which put you straight into downed state if you don't pay attention.

Do it in 3 lanes instead of 5 so you have enough of everything to give you a fair chance of completing it, if it takes a coordination, then let it freaking take coordination. There's so little challenge in this game, the sooner everyone giddy's up and realizes that IF he wants shit done, he better a ) Join a guild b )get organized and plant his ass in a voice communication program of his choice.

(also TL;DR)
Just because it's open world content, that doesn't mean it needs to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Would it be a pain in the ass in the transition? Hell yes. It would. I almost flipped my lid, watching other people on those Marionette platforms fail in humanly uncomprehendable dimensions, but I'd rather go through that, than settle for trivial encounters.

Of course beating something truly challenges ought to be rewarded in order to create incentive and not just be an unchecked box on a list of achievements. That goes without saying, but that's not what you asked.


PS.: Whoever decided in their infinite wisdom that B + ) needs to be a ♥♥♥♥ing sunglasses smiley, ought to be publically decapitated.

PPS.: Davadude had some great points too, if scaling comes into consideration, it'd be a way to please everyone. Those who simply want to have "done it once" and those who seek the challenge, rewards would obviously need to be tailored to the difficulty you actually beat the encounter.

That way you'd not make it impossible for a low amount of people, yet still make it challenging, but also give the amount of people that generally adds to the epicness of open woirld content a longer term goal of something to beat.

Edited by Illein, 24 January 2014 - 10:52 AM.


#25 Brandon the Don

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 11:00 AM

View Postdavadude, on 24 January 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

The wurm events have no instructions when you need to fight the wurms.  Each wurm has its own mechanics that must be played with before you can damage it, and it is not evident from anywhere that killing one head causes the timer to be depleted to almost nothing.

Hm, a bit depressing then...

I mean these events just scream "Overflows" so I see no reason why Anet shouldn't have provided the needed info to take them down...

You simply cannot expect over 100 strangers to suddenly be as organized as a regular guild with TS...

#26 Misty Six

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 11:19 AM

Green items and keys, yay. That about sums it up.

#27 Robsy128

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 10:34 PM

Definitely a step in the right direction. It needs a lot of polish and scaling needs to be fixed - as do the rewards. Aside from that, I don't care if we fail or succeed to be honest. I thought it was awesome how everyone died at the end as well and we just saw loads of dead bodies littered everywhere. It made me feel like 'oh no, we have actually failed!'

I would have liked to have seen what the Marionette does after killing us all as well, but maybe that comes later? These massive events kind of need to have story-arcs of their own like the smaller events do.

#28 master21

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 10:54 PM

Yes it's step in good direction. More events should look like that. It's not just number of ppl, it's this personall skill which matters with wardens. Game should really start panish ppl for playing bad and for being unskilled, half-afk noob and this event is great start.

#29 Little Bird

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:14 AM

I was on the fence for a long time about the naked clockwork woman in heels - torn between "is this T&A to keep the game visually appealing to a male audience" and "is this art?". Maybe it's both. In the end I have to admit that while I don't like the sexual overtones, the steampunkish appeal and the scale of it is beautiful and impressive.

The game play for the event is easy to understand and that makes it easier to organize people. I have been through a lot of fails, but also a few wins spread across the main server and overflows equally. My favorite part of it though is that we are rewarded for our hard work even if we fail. It never feels like I wasted my time.

Edited by Little Bird, 25 January 2014 - 01:14 AM.


#30 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:31 PM

I personally like it. It's easy enough anyone can do it but hard enough that if you ignore those who learned before you then your ignorance is painful. In essence rather than everyone being ultra-competent with a full explanation screen you get people who just learn as they go; it's not ever one or two people who ruin it all so if guilds are so worried about failing just place agents in every lane dividing up your forces; if you have 50 ppl then you do 10 per lane, if you showed up with 20 then 4 per lane, whatever the case your guild won't likely be the only "competent" presence.




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