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"We were making [the wurm] specifically for the hard core groups"


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#1 MazingerZ

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 11:08 PM

http://www.reddit.co...m_specifically/

Quote

Hey, thanks everyone! We spent a lot of time tweaking the balance on this, and I’m glad that so many people appreciate our efforts. We REALLY like hearing that people are making memories and cheering each other on. Those are the kinds of experiences we make MMOs for.

I’m not surprised that the Wurm is not liked by as many people. We were making that specifically for the hard core groups that are all about the organization and figuring out the strategy and tactics. It’s really cool watching the community grapple with this puzzle and innovate as they get closer and closer to finding a winning strategy.

Cue expected blow-back about making "hardcore" content open world, with the organizational pains that brings... Overflows, noobs, etc.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#2 Kymeric

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 11:12 PM

Hm, I wonder if the plan is that eventually all of the world bosses will be revamped for the "hard core".

#3 Inraged Twitch

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 11:19 PM

keyword there being "groups" there are no groups when doing these so called "open world raids."  Give us FoW UW 25 man INSTANCE raids not open world crap.

#4 Featherman

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 11:26 PM

Huh
I find it rather interesting that ANet would tout their leveling process as gating in order to teach players when they release difficult content this kind of difficult content where many people who meet the level requirement have no clue what they're doing. I don't think the Wurms are hardcore content. It's content without a proper learning curve/doesn't make use of the learning curve (assuming there is one) and a purposefully cumbersome and annoying mechanic.

#5 Cube

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:12 AM

Then make it instanced! Not open world! Just! Ugh...

So many people begging for instanced hardcore epic content and you make something open world were there are no groups just a bunch of randoms together trying to make something work.

#6 MazingerZ

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:21 AM

Additional amusements abound.  Emphasis mine.

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In the never ending quest to improve our design and find ways to please as many people as possible we’re always digging into constructive criticism. We have not perfected the recipe for an open world boss event, probably because we’re pioneering new territory here.

As far as I can tell there are a couple challenges we are trying to overcome. First, we are trying to teach the community a new skill: self organization. And I’m happy to see that in the aggregate, they ARE learning. I’m sure as this process continues we will find better ways to accommodate the communication structures that will emerge.

Secondly, from both a technical and player-experience perspective, it’s best to break up zergs as much as possible. Thematically keeping everyone feeling like they are contributing to a common cause from multiple locations, and still feel heroic is an interesting challenge to balance. Always looking for new ideas on this issue!

Edited by MazingerZ, 25 January 2014 - 12:22 AM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#7 Tevesh

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:26 AM

The fact that the people in charge let them release such content is a disaster. It is as if we put five year olds in charge of nuclear warheads. Actually, it's even worse. The utter lack of competence amongst gw2 developers and senior management is, however, not surprising anymore, not after everything the game has been through.

Their server architecture is such a mess that creating ANY group-oriented outdoor content is a spit in the face of everyone who spent at least a cent on thier joke of a game. Dealing with lags, party breaks and overflows? I'd rather go deal with russian tax police, seems less of a waste of time.

Not to mention scaling has been the major issue with their previous failures of world bosses which was teq and they did not snap a finger to fix their horrid and bug-ridden scaling systems. 50x the hp pool for wurm? Nah just a bug. Believe them, they were not even trying to place even more ♥♥♥♥blocks in their temporary time gated joke of a content. They are not just competent enough to get the major issues nailed down even after the previous occurence sparked an outrage from the community.

#8 Jentari

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:32 AM

What is the use of complaining?  They will ignore those who do not hold the same opinion as them and they will only post and comment on those who support/agree with them.

#9 Atticus

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:51 AM

Ugh it just goes back the fundamental disconnect AreaNet has with practical reality and what their playerbase want's when they great "hardcore" content in an open world setting. It should take any random MMO denizen about 2 seconds to think of a myriad of reasons why that's a bad idea but somehow a team of Developers can't figure this out? What is wrong with their development process, are people just terrified to speak up and call others out on dumb ideas or something?

#10 Gyre

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:04 AM

Please for the love of god do something about overflows and guesting.  It is utterly impossible to justify why people who are physically on a world are losing slots to entire guilds guesting over and then autorunning into walls to bypass the idle disconnect.  This has reached epidemic proportions on Desolation, it needs to be addressed.

#11 Featherman

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:07 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 25 January 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

Additional amusements abound.  Emphasis mine.
I'd take the quote more seriously if it wasn't laced so painfully with buzzwords. They're not pioneering game design, nor should they given the quality of their work. If they want to create content with proper tutorials and learning curves they should look at every game that came before theirs because there are some that do it seamlessly with restrictions that are far worse than the ones seen in GW2.

If players are learning they're doing it distruptively by detracting from the experience of higher skilled players. If you want to pit players against challenging content like wurms (really just bosses with gimmick mechanics) then these players need to have leanred all the concepts necessary to beat the content. Challenge should come from how they execute what they've learned.

And this is ignoring the fact that, logistically, challenging open world content doesn't work that well in GW2.

Edited by Featherman, 25 January 2014 - 01:07 AM.


#12 Phineas Poe

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:32 AM

View PostGyre, on 25 January 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

Please for the love of god do something about overflows and guesting.  It is utterly impossible to justify why people who are physically on a world are losing slots to entire guilds guesting over and then autorunning into walls to bypass the idle disconnect.  This has reached epidemic proportions on Desolation, it needs to be addressed.

This.

I am more than OK with them designing open world bosses as a platform for "end game." But they need to give us the platform to create our own overflows. It was next to impossible to get a reasonable kill attempt going. Even if we'd advertise our Teamspeak information in map chat, we'd get limited engagement from pugs.

The only alternative is sitting in Bloodtide Coast for two ♥♥♥♥ing hours waiting for the next spawn, praying that no pugs end up in the same zone. I ended up doing this for six hours (while afking doing other things) and we managed to get a few good organized attempts with GSCH and AARM (Dulfy's guild). I must have personally invited and dragged over 50 people.

Doing that kind of thing on a daily basis to try and get quality attempts at the thing? Thanks but no thanks. Tequatl is much easier to organize since it's months-old content. Perhaps wurm will get to that point, but we're mostly waiting until they figure a solution out.

We got a few good attempts, one of which entered phase 2, but I find it much more entertaining focusing on FOTM and other stuff and watching TTS grow gray hair over this.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 25 January 2014 - 01:34 AM.


#13 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:34 AM

I know this may sound strange but I support it being open world. I think instanced content is unhealthy because instead of working from a general vantage point you almost get used to cutting the world out of your gameplay. Guilds end up working together to complete content in open-world versus smaller teams working together in perfect synergy because they've known one another since inception.

It has more of a ... grandiose feel. The world comes together against a threat versus a group of heroes who know one another by heart shows up and defeats the ultimate evil because they totally know what to do, when to do it, and don't require any form of externalized ( commanding ) communication. In real life in the military you do not know everyone you are going to work with but you bond, get along, and achieve the goal even if that goal is just staying alive. In wars of the past it's the same. I'm not saying that this is real-life, no, but it's better to allow everyone to elevate as a continuous group than it is to harbor a distinction between people.

Elitism has always killed potential in all games that ever came out.

[ Add ]

Oh, and the whole overflow / guesting thing I completely agree with. It's too bad that they had a good idea but technological limitations along with shady players seem to be more than willing to undermine it.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 25 January 2014 - 01:35 AM.


#14 Phineas Poe

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:50 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 25 January 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

I'm not saying that this is real-life, no, but it's better to allow everyone to elevate as a continuous group than it is to harbor a distinction between people.

By defining something as "hardcore" content you thereby designate that it isn't content meant to be completed by everyone.

I understand that ArenaNet wants to drop barriers between guilds and wants more cross-server interaction. They don't want to bring WoW raiding back. And I don't want them to either.

But they can't just force pugs on us and think that they're creating optimally "hardcore" content. A fight should be challenging because it is hard, not because players refuse to cooperate, get on Teamspeak, and follow our directions. A fight should take a long time to successfully complete because it is actually difficult, not because you have to wait two hours to fight it again.

#15 Echou

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:58 AM

Give hardcore world bosses small zones of their own (like dragon dens, wurm nests etc.)?

#16 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 02:10 AM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 25 January 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

By defining something as "hardcore" content you thereby designate that it isn't content meant to be completed by everyone.

I understand that ArenaNet wants to drop barriers between guilds and wants more cross-server interaction. They don't want to bring WoW raiding back. And I don't want them to either.

But they can't just force pugs on us and think that they're creating optimally "hardcore" content. A fight should be challenging because it is hard, not because players refuse to cooperate, get on Teamspeak, and follow our directions. A fight should take a long time to successfully complete because it is actually difficult, not because you have to wait two hours to fight it again.

I agree but I also think that this adds a dynamic that they didn't have to introduce: Cooperation. The content is hard enough without everyone being outright disobedient but at the same time it is that distinct unwillingness to listen and refusal to obey that creates a more fulfilling battlefield. It should be frustrating to you when you don't get it done because everyone else, or perhaps you, didn't do as told; perhaps there's more than one way and settling with that is important, perhaps a prior plan of attack must be in place, etc.

The reality is simply that people don't fail because one or two people refused to do something. Groups fail because they fall apart and falling apart is a sign of bad management and leadership. It is this that allows a real-world interaction between gamers that exits the standardized "We all know what to do" content mindset. Furthermore it allows people who would normally never be allowed despite desire to attempt to ever play. PUGs can suck. PUGs can rock. PUGs however are important either way because if content is to truly progress into a more hardcore world the reality is that we need more and more skilled players and more and more people willing to try.

View PostEchou, on 25 January 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

Give hardcore world bosses small zones of their own (like dragon dens, wurm nests etc.)?
Technically the Jungle Wurm has an enclave you're not going to accidentally stumble across. I think the greatest issue with giving a WB it's own singular territory is that it wastes resources. How many people honestly visit the Bloodtide Coast ( or any map w/o a WB that isn't Queensdale ) on the regular? Few if any.

The world is open; the number of people in Lornar's pass prior to this could be counted on almost all servers probably on one hand if they weren't just working towards map completion and just stumbled in there. :P

#17 Phineas Poe

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 02:40 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 25 January 2014 - 02:10 AM, said:

The reality is simply that people don't fail because one or two people refused to do something. Groups fail because they fall apart and falling apart is a sign of bad management and leadership.

I think in some respects this is true with Tequatl. It's largely dependent on the defense and the turrets carrying their weight, but if a couple people die in the zerg or during the battery phase, it's really not a big deal. And mechanically, Tequatl is a very easy fight. The zerg stacks on the commander so the turrets have a singular point to cleanse poison. Guardians use stability, aegis, and wall of reflection. Mesmers use focus skills and time warp. Elementalists stack might and drop conjured weapons. Warriors use war banners to revive the downed. Every class has a role that plays to their particular strengths that you should already be familiar with. And if you're comfortable with the class you're playing, you know how to contribute easily. Your effective employment of class mechanics determine your success rate. The simplicity of the fight is its strength. What differentiates it from other fights is that it encourages cooperation on a more global scale.

The Marionette and the Jungle Wurm, by comparison, are very much focused around individual effort. 5 people failing one platform can fail the event for the other 20-25 people that are on the same "chain phase." What you then get is a situation where you lump everyone who's good into lane 1-3, and have lane 1 go to lane 4, lane 2 to lane 5, etc. etc. until all five chains are completed. It doesn't encourage cooperation between guilds. It just forces good, organized guilds to work harder and carry pugs through the content so they feel "involved."

Jungle Wurm 2.0 is exactly the same way. The cooldowns at amber are just way too rigid. It requires literally everyone down to the T to do the fight effectively. The wurm itself has 20 stacks of immunity, and each spear gun shot removes one stack. Because the spear gun is destroyed after shooting, you effectively have one chance to get it right. If 20 people get swallowed, if just one or two people fail, you cannot enter the burn phase. So then you have to do it all over again, but the next 20 people have to go in. This is why it's most effective just zerging the damn thing with all 150 people to start the fight, because then you have rotating groups of 50+ people with spear guns at least reducing the likelihood of error and maintaining burn phases.

In essence, it requires effective play on a significantly more local scale. It's true that battery defense phases worked similarly, but there were jump pads to move between easily to help out whatever one was having issues. Going from west to east battery was very easy. Going from cobalt to amber by comparison is not.

#18 assyrian dragon

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 02:58 AM

The real problem is it is not an event that you can do it whenever you want.
GW2 will suffer from putting timers on world bosses and making it take 100+ players to do it.
instanced boss is the way to go but Anet is so blind .

#19 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 02:59 AM

I think their goal this time is more synergy than presence. In Teq to some degree you had a role and just had to be there; you weren't necessarily essential to "get it right". Wurm definitely has you really requiring some thought, perhaps you split off 30 to handle Amber allowing for 10 misfires. Ensure that you have at least 18 people who know what to do so that your odds of all the other 12 failing are pretty low. It's this type of coordination people are shooting for; you train in new people, you get a strong server, and then you have not only strong PUGs but a strong WvWvW server as well.

#20 Phineas Poe

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 05:08 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 25 January 2014 - 02:59 AM, said:

I think their goal this time is more synergy than presence. In Teq to some degree you had a role and just had to be there; you weren't necessarily essential to "get it right". Wurm definitely has you really requiring some thought, perhaps you split off 30 to handle Amber allowing for 10 misfires. Ensure that you have at least 18 people who know what to do so that your odds of all the other 12 failing are pretty low. It's this type of coordination people are shooting for; you train in new people, you get a strong server, and then you have not only strong PUGs but a strong WvWvW server as well.

Keep in mind you incur a debuff when you're swallowed by the wurm. You can't just use the same 20 people. You have to rotate different groups of 20-30 people to roll burn phases so that you kill it quickly enough.

#21 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 05:41 AM

I forgot, but then again all the more reason to go with something that incorporates a learning experience for everyone versus a standard of elitism, yes?

#22 Jentari

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 05:52 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 25 January 2014 - 02:59 AM, said:

I think their goal this time is more synergy than presence. In Teq to some degree you had a role and just had to be there; you weren't necessarily essential to "get it right". Wurm definitely has you really requiring some thought, perhaps you split off 30 to handle Amber allowing for 10 misfires. Ensure that you have at least 18 people who know what to do so that your odds of all the other 12 failing are pretty low. It's this type of coordination people are shooting for; you train in new people, you get a strong server, and then you have not only strong PUGs but a strong WvWvW server as well.

Frankly you give everyone too much credit.  How you can think 100+ random people will be able to do this is laughable.

Sure organized guilds teaming up have and will but the normal everyday casual player that the game catered to will not.

Like others say, this should have been an instanced fight not open world.

#23 konsta_hoptrop

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:07 AM

ANet better rework your overflow system to GW1 District system and then release that "hardcore" content for open world bosses. I prefer open world battles like that but with proper servers..

#24 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 10:20 AM

Either decrease the difficulty or give us better infrastructure. But to give us Taco 2.0, without addressing any of the issues that plagued her, is just a spit in the face of every player.

Good idea, appalling execution.

#25 Namelesslunatic

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 10:29 AM

I dont know about you guys ,

but I for one like that we got a open world boss that is catered to the 'hard core' player base. I'm totally not a hardcore player, but I did some reading on tactics and I know what to do now. So it seems that the first tactic players should apply is reading what to do.
SO WHAT if you fail a few times, that should be fun. It's no fun if you totally make no progress at all.

The thing is , when it's finally killed it'll be a super nice feeling , because of all the time invested.

EDIT: I do have to say, I always liked the idea of 10/15 man 'raids' for GW2, it just seems like a nice idea in my eyes. (would save them a lot of whining to)

Edited by Namelesslunatic, 25 January 2014 - 10:31 AM.


#26 sanctuaire

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 10:51 AM

at the very least please please bring back the district system for maps. so guilds can at least say 'hey let's meet up at
district 7' and not these nameless overflows where you'll have to stay more than an hour before (on some servers) to get
to main.


.

#27 Illein

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:58 AM

Seems I should check out the Wurm some more! Still a bit focused on Marionette achievements, but I like what I hear about it.

Edit: Word Mumbo Jumbo!

Edited by Illein, 25 January 2014 - 12:27 PM.


#28 Gilles VI

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:58 AM

View PostFeatherman, on 25 January 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

I'd take the quote more seriously if it wasn't laced so painfully with buzzwords. They're not pioneering game design, nor should they given the quality of their work. If they want to create content with proper tutorials and learning curves they should look at every game that came before theirs because there are some that do it seamlessly with restrictions that are far worse than the ones seen in GW2.

If players are learning they're doing it distruptively by detracting from the experience of higher skilled players. If you want to pit players against challenging content like wurms (really just bosses with gimmick mechanics) then these players need to have leanred all the concepts necessary to beat the content. Challenge should come from how they execute what they've learned.

And this is ignoring the fact that, logistically, challenging open world content doesn't work that well in GW2.

I'm curious what you consider good boss mechanics then? Which boss do you like in gw2? or others games?

#29 Namelesslunatic

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:11 PM

View PostIllein, on 25 January 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Seems I should check out the Wurm some more! Still a bit focused on Marionette achievements, but I like what I hear about it.

Fixed for you

#30 Illein

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:26 PM

View PostNamelesslunatic, on 25 January 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Fixed for you

LOL. Thanks! Didn't make much sense the other way around.




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