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"We were making [the wurm] specifically for the hard core groups"


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#121 MazingerZ

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 06:16 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 28 January 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

As for them understanding themselves even developers are not guaranteed to be strong in their own games. It is the norm. A HC player is going to be better than a Dev in most cases because while Devs and Testers must beat the game that doesn't mean they walk away unscathed by the difficulty of the system to master. People who actually dedicate themselves will find cleaner and more efficient ways than those who are tasked with building the thing ( who also have access to cheats ) and just have to ensure it's "doable". It's difficult to know if the Wurm was released as "doable" though, as it's never been completed with some form of glitch.

My point is that their livestreams don't even really show the level of in-depth choices they're apparently requiring people to learn now.  A good streamer says why they're picking a particular weapon, why they choose their traits and utilities and how they apply to a situation.  It's supposed to exemplify the approach they expect the average player to take when playing.  But I rarely see that.

The overall point of my post above is that the game does a relatively shitty job teaching you how to play it.  A lot of basic (not boss-specific) mechanic information either comes out in these dev posts or through player experimentation.  It's a really craptastic implementation to put open world content that suddenly requires people to explore what depth there is in their systems after letting them faceroll across the maps for a year.
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#122 Phineas Poe

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 06:41 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 28 January 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

Yes, you as a player SHOULD be concerned about content that cannot scale down to a decent amount of players.

Well, I'm not. There's already more than enough open-world content out there that is beatable with less than 20 players. There is literally nothing in this game outside of Tequatl that caters to large guilds in PvE that proves a remote challenge. And as early as next week you'll be seeing more of the usual stuff that caters to the lowest common denominator. And that's fine. But I think the game needs a little bit of both to keep everyone happy: not just cater to casuals or the hardcore (or small guilds versus large).

Besides, if someone is in a small guild but wants to meaningfully attempt this content, there is a reason why TTS exists and doesn't require you to represent 100% of the time. It stands for a purpose. And last I checked it had several thousand players in its roster. So there is a fairly large contingent of active players that want this kind of content, a lot of whom aren't in guilds like mine.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 28 January 2014 - 06:42 PM.


#123 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 06:57 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 28 January 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:


My point is that their livestreams don't even really show the level of in-depth choices they're apparently requiring people to learn now.  A good streamer says why they're picking a particular weapon, why they choose their traits and utilities and how they apply to a situation.  It's supposed to exemplify the approach they expect the average player to take when playing.  But I rarely see that.

The overall point of my post above is that the game does a relatively shitty job teaching you how to play it.  A lot of basic (not boss-specific) mechanic information either comes out in these dev posts or through player experimentation.  It's a really craptastic implementation to put open world content that suddenly requires people to explore what depth there is in their systems after letting them faceroll across the maps for a year.

This calls to question "player initiative" versus "developmental guidance" and I am going to side with the developers on this one. You should not be "taught" how to dodge as there is a manual with the game, even if in digital format, and furthermore presuming you bound even one of your own keys you can see all of the optional key presses. One of the fundamentals of any game, no matter how greater or small, simple or complex, is simply knowing what you're doing. If at first you don't succeed read the material given to you.

I only say this because somehow entire servers managed to fill with people who are not ignorant; this is a testament to the idea that it isn't about them failing to teach but rather the players, and fundamentally the individuals, who failed to take interest in their own investment. No amount of guidance is going to help someone who just doesn't care and when it comes up to that boss, that fight, that tough overwhelming wall of "Oh Shit!" you deserve nothing less than to lose. One of the marketing ploys of games these days is difficulty and mastery even; the games themselves are not "hard" if you know what to do but if you don't it's exceedingly difficult.

Marionette is a lesson as well as an experiment and a teaching tool all in the same bundle. 1. People who don't care will continue to not care. 2. People who do care will eventually group up and away from the people who do not care. 3. People will become considerably more adept at completing tasks regardless of their current competency simply because humans learn and the learning curve in this game is very, very low. Going from "I dunno" to expert takes almost nothing.

#124 El Duderino

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:03 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 28 January 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

There's already more than enough open-world content out there that is beatable with less than 20 players.

So, you're saying that the rest of the playbase doesn't deserve more content? Just you and your massive guild?

#125 Kymeric

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:09 PM

Quote

We know that X% of players don’t know about traits.


Mind. Blown.

I wonder what that percentage is.  And how do those players stay in game with how horribly broken some classes feel until you get them at least a little traited?

#126 Jentari

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:10 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 28 January 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

This calls to question "player initiative" versus "developmental guidance" and I am going to side with the developers on this one. You should not be "taught" how to dodge as there is a manual with the game, even if in digital format, and furthermore presuming you bound even one of your own keys you can see all of the optional key presses. One of the fundamentals of any game, no matter how greater or small, simple or complex, is simply knowing what you're doing. If at first you don't succeed read the material given to you.

I only say this because somehow entire servers managed to fill with people who are not ignorant; this is a testament to the idea that it isn't about them failing to teach but rather the players, and fundamentally the individuals, who failed to take interest in their own investment. No amount of guidance is going to help someone who just doesn't care and when it comes up to that boss, that fight, that tough overwhelming wall of "Oh Shit!" you deserve nothing less than to lose. One of the marketing ploys of games these days is difficulty and mastery even; the games themselves are not "hard" if you know what to do but if you don't it's exceedingly difficult.

Marionette is a lesson as well as an experiment and a teaching tool all in the same bundle. 1. People who don't care will continue to not care. 2. People who do care will eventually group up and away from the people who do not care. 3. People will become considerably more adept at completing tasks regardless of their current competency simply because humans learn and the learning curve in this game is very, very low. Going from "I dunno" to expert takes almost nothing.

Not sure if you have noticed but it has been a week and instead of people doing what you believe they should do they are just not playing that content anymore.  I am on SOR, one of the largest NA servers in population and now it is difficult to fill the normal servers for the wrum & marionette.  People are not working together to get these done, they try them and say "F" this and stop trying them.

#127 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:13 PM

View PostKymeric, on 28 January 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:



Mind. Blown.

I wonder what that percentage is.  And how do those players stay in game with how horribly broken some classes feel until you get them at least a little traited?

Better question: When the game deliberately introduces you the trait system how did you manage to miss it? There actually is an in-game tutorial for 7~0 and traits 0~10. Maybe they are perpetually too poor and can't make 10s?

View PostJentari, on 28 January 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Not sure if you have noticed but it has been a week and instead of people doing what you believe they should do they are just not playing that content anymore.  I am on SOR, one of the largest NA servers in population and now it is difficult to fill the normal servers for the wrum & marionette.  People are not working together to get these done, they try them and say "F" this and stop trying them.
First and foremost I don't "believe" people should do any particular thing. I just know the weak will sift themselves out, the strong will gravitate towards one another, and the elitism will begin soon enough. Second it's been a week. Those who were going to quit had quit by now which is part of "sifting themselves out". If you want to get it done you go to another server that gets it done, you start to see that your server is dedicated to a little something else, and then you are faced with the decision to stay or group up elsewhere. To be honest this is a perfect example of the three numbered points I made.

#128 MazingerZ

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:20 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 28 January 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

snip

Somehow you said that the game is difficult to the ignorant but easy to learn in one fell swoop.  This calls into question the entire concept of how much depth this game actually has if they think their wurm or the marionettes force people to examine the traits and utilities their using.

Second, no one RTFMs, which is why most games come with tutorial sections that actually explain the mechanics.  Heck, DCUO has one of the more convoluted combat systems I've seen for executing weapon attacks and teaches the concept in the starting tutorial.  This game barely tells you anything about the mechanics or controls.  The most in-depth thing are the Hearts and the Waypoint system.

Finally, to your point on player initiative.  This goes hand-in-hand with the concept that the forums represent a small subgroup of the overall player community.  That goes specifically to the concept of player-initiative, in that few players are going to explore outside the game client.  They're not going to go to the wiki, the forums, or any resource sites that explain builds or mechanics or why one trait is good compared to another.  You can learn a bit while actively leveling in the open world, but you usually end up with your nose to the ground because bosses do not behave in any way like a normal mob does thanks to Defiant.

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 28 January 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Better question: When the game deliberately introduces you the trait system how did you manage to miss it? There actually is an in-game tutorial for 7~0 and traits 0~10. Maybe they are perpetually too poor and can't make 10s?

Even better question, how am I suppose to know whether one trait is more effective than the other?  Experimentation?  That gets expensive, with the retraining and the re-gearing.  Not to mention that none of it's balanced worth a hoot.  What about broken traits?  Exactly how much research are you expecting "the weak" to put into this in order to enjoy the game?  The client itself does a rather piss-poor job.  They would have to go to outside resources, which it's been explained time and again, the level of community interaction outside the client is apparently a "vocal minority."

Edited by MazingerZ, 28 January 2014 - 07:21 PM.

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#129 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:31 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 28 January 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Somehow you said that the game is difficult to the ignorant but easy to learn in one fell swoop.  This calls into question the entire concept of how much depth this game actually has if they think their wurm or the marionettes force people to examine the traits and utilities their using.
That doesn't illustrate that point at all. Most things, if not all of them, are difficult if you don't know what you're doing. From hunting and pecking at a keyboard versus using correct form to rewiring a mainframe the difficulty scales only to your knowledge and capability. Also Wurm and Marionette serve different functions. Marionette is the only one who does, Wurm is for you if you already know what you're doing, it's the "bonus boss", but Marionette is in place basically saying "You know what, this isn't hard, but it requires level 2 skill." What we've found is that a large number of people have lvl 2+ skill and also that an unacceptable amount of people do not.

Quote

Second, no one RTFMs, which is why most games come with tutorial sections that actually explain the mechanics.  Heck, DCUO has one of the more convoluted combat systems I've seen for executing weapon attacks and teaches the concept in the starting tutorial.  This game barely tells you anything about the mechanics or controls.  The most in-depth thing are the Hearts and the Waypoint system.
It explains traits, combat, leveling up, hearts, vistas, slot skills, skill points, events, and has a ridiculous amount of tooltips, even with them on the bosses and monsters telling you what they are inherently immune to ( dredge, destroyer ). There's even an achievement for viewing all the hints.

To some degree it's your fault.

Quote

Finally, to your point on player initiative.  This goes hand-in-hand with the concept that the forums represent a small subgroup of the overall player community.  That goes specifically to the concept of player-initiative, in that few players are going to explore outside the game client.  They're not going to go to the wiki, the forums, or any resource sites that explain builds or mechanics or why one trait is good compared to another.  You can learn a bit while actively leveling in the open world, but you usually end up with your nose to the ground because bosses do not behave in any way like a normal mob does thanks to Defiant.
The advent of the Berserker Meta, meta trait builds, and Duffy completely undermines this. It simply is not true at all; most people who take even mild interest in a product or venture at least know something about it before beginning. Type in "air vs. fire sigil" and you get tons of views, replies, and questions as well as plenty of information. People ask questions all the time, everyday. This is of course to even say that you have to leave the client; plenty of knowledgeable people are there in guilds and such as resources. It's just not an excuse.

Quote

Even better question, how am I suppose to know whether one trait is more effective than the other?  Experimentation?  That gets expensive, with the retraining and the gear.  Not to mention that none of it's balanced worth a hoot.  What about broken traits?  Exactly how much research are you expecting "the weak" to put into this in order to enjoy the game?  The client itself does a rather piss-poor job.
You know you're asking a counterintuitive question. "How am I supposed to know?" > "Ask." > "How much research must I do?" > "None, if you ask." People can tell you how a Cleric-build Warrior works because someone has already done it. You say "But thats work!" > "You're a lazy ♥♥♥♥" is all I can muster to reply; if you haven't the time to ask "Does bleed stack well on a ranger? GW2" in Google then you're not worth my time to even talk to and worth no-ones time to play with in any form of combat based content.

#130 El Duderino

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:48 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 28 January 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

You know you're asking a counterintuitive question. "How am I supposed to know?" > "Ask." > "How much research must I do?" > "None, if you ask." People can tell you how a Cleric-build Warrior works because someone has already done it. You say "But thats work!" > "You're a lazy ♥♥♥♥" is all I can muster to reply; if you haven't the time to ask "Does bleed stack well on a ranger? GW2" in Google then you're not worth my time to even talk to and worth no-ones time to play with in any form of combat based content.

I would mention that we that visit forums are different than most players. The proof is that there are players that don't even know about traits. And, what I am trying to say is that it is easy and intuitive for us to do these things: ask, go on wikis, seek out forums, etc. However, that is the exception and not the norm. That is why they call anything that happens in the forums the vocal minority - because the majority of players don't do these things.

Perhaps one of the problems with the trait system is that it just isn't intuitive. I know when I first started, it didn't make sense to me at all. I understand that one would expect to get past that at some point, and I agree it is ridiculous that there are people that aren't using the system, but I think the point is that the developers are at least partially responsible for a major part of the combat system being overlooked by a percentage of players. To me, if these things aren't utilized, it is a development problem first. I find it hard to believe that players wouldn't want to use these tools if 1) they are aware of them, 2) understand how important they are and 3) don't find them overly complex.

View PostJentari, on 28 January 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Not sure if you have noticed but it has been a week and instead of people doing what you believe they should do they are just not playing that content anymore.  I am on SOR, one of the largest NA servers in population and now it is difficult to fill the normal servers for the wrum & marionette.  People are not working together to get these done, they try them and say "F" this and stop trying them.

And here is another example of why having 60-100+ man content that is overly difficult in the open world is a bad idea.

#131 Oppenheimer76

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:52 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 28 January 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Please don't tell me what I should or should not be concerned with. As someone that manages a 500-man guild that clears out inactive players on a regular basis, what I want and what you want may not necessarily align. I have a guild full of players that want this kind of content: stuff that cannot simply be zerged to complete. That has been the fundamental flaw of everything related to the Living Story up until this point, and has been my primary issue relating to Guild Wars 2 on the whole: there just isn't any challenging content in this game for a guild of mine's size. Or at least, there wasn't until Tequatl and the Wurm came around. Everybody wins.

While I don't think that "nobody wins" should be the new mantra, and I fully expect that the Wurm in some way will be re-balanced to up its success rate, it baffles me that you think it was wrong on their part to create content that actually encourages (and requires) large-scale organization.

I said, you, as a player, should be concerned with it because it does impact you and your guild. Nowhere did I say anything about difficulty, my argument comes from a balancing and a quality viewpoint that's been sorely missing lately.

If you are running a guild that large, you know what it's like to be missing key guild features (essentially last login/transfer of guild leadership if GM quits/disappears, managing membership/applications ingame) stuff that's easily patched in by the way, but chosen not to for whatever reason. Add in to that, that you, as a guild have NO way to pick an instance of the wurm or marionette if you choose to and label it <My Guild> Wurm Event similar to an LFG posting that would allow for steady organization.

The challenge for the event is debatable, none of the mechanics of the wurm specifically is new to any MMO veteran, or anyone who's played an MMO in the last 6 years or so.

The challenge isn't the fight itself, which it COULD be if it was tested and GW2's inherent mechanics like "it's shooting projectiles at me! /dodge!" instead of aoe blobs all over the place.

The challenge is currently, can these 60-100+ people organize within the 40 mins or so we have till we get 15 minutes that we're allowed (for whatever reason), to kill 3 bosses within a set time (we all know that dance), then can these same 60-100 people kill the big bad wurm head, which we have no clue how it scales, within the few minutes we're given until we have to wait an hour or so to try again.

That whole line about 'self-organizing' at this time in MMO's is such a cop-out to not admitting you've screwed up that it's extremely aggravating to know that there are good people in the studio who can't get their ideas across because of managerial mistakes.

Edited by Oppenheimer76, 28 January 2014 - 07:53 PM.


#132 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:11 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 28 January 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

I would mention that we that visit forums are different than most players. The proof is that there are players that don't even know about traits. And, what I am trying to say is that it is easy and intuitive for us to do these things: ask, go on wikis, seek out forums, etc. However, that is the exception and not the norm. That is why they call anything that happens in the forums the vocal minority - because the majority of players don't do these things.
The issue I have with this is that it still refuses to acknowledge the playerbase for what it is. For every "vocal minority" citizen seeking knowledge outside the game is also now an in-game resource. I learn things from my peers all the time on the go; haven't done a dungeon before? "Come on, we'll walk you through it." All of my dungeoneering experience is from PUGs that basically showed me how to do it, what was dangerous, and where to go; same with my Fractals experience. I may not enjoy dungeons or fractals but I sure can't say "Hurrdurr, can't do this" based on a lack of availability.

If I am in game and someone asks "What does a full set of Rune of Air do?" I'd just say "Gives you 25% Speed Boost.", myself and 4 other people; people ask Q's all the time when I'm on and most of the time someone knows. We're pretty kind to newbies on my server even showering them in gifts. XD

Quote

Perhaps one of the problems with the trait system is that it just isn't intuitive. I know when I first started, it didn't make sense to me at all. I understand that one would expect to get past that at some point, and I agree it is ridiculous that there are people that aren't using the system, but I think the point is that the developers are at least partially responsible for a major part of the combat system being overlooked by a percentage of players. To me, if these things aren't utilized, it is a development problem first. I find it hard to believe that players wouldn't want to use these tools if 1) they are aware of them, 2) understand how important they are and 3) don't find them overly complex.
Never underestimate human ineptitude. Sudoku is an easy game yet most people never get past "1-star" puzzles simply because they never try.

#133 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:23 PM

I wish to illustrate one point and then make one analogy before I go for a while:

The Point: Every time I have faced Marionette no matter the server there are people in the event giving explicit directions on what is coming up ranging from "He hits hard, stay away from him and be ranged" to "He is invincible from the front", and all between. There is simply no excuse, even if you do not ever look outside the game for guidance, to fail to understand so long as you are capable of reading.

The Analogy: Just as you do not walk into your Superintendent's/Dean's office and say "I demand A's for effort despite legitimately failing these classes through sheer laziness!" players should not walk up to developers and demand prizes for lackluster gameplay centered around inherent disinterest.

#134 MazingerZ

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:31 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 28 January 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

The Analogy: Just as you do not walk into your Superintendent's/Dean's office and say "I demand A's for effort despite legitimately failing these classes through sheer laziness!" players should not walk up to developers and demand prizes for lackluster gameplay centered around inherent disinterest.

No, but you do go up to the Dean and complain when your professor's proven to be an inept, pompous ass who's exams haven't reflected any of the lectures or coursework for the semester.
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Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#135 Minion

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:52 PM

View PostMiragee, on 28 January 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

I think people that reach 80 and don't even know what traits are should quit gaming alltogether. Or quit life. I mean seriously that should go under the normal ability for a human being to approach systems: You notice that it is there. If you can't do that your life-form is simply not autonom and the only that barely keeps you alive is society.
I can't really believe what Josh said but if it's true the skill niveau of some players has reached a new low. :(

Think about that, though. We're not given our full trait set UNTIL level 80. This is perhaps the fundamental problem with the progression leveling system at the moment. We should be given all our traits by level 50 at the latest.

#136 El Duderino

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 09:02 PM

View PostMinion, on 28 January 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

Think about that, though. We're not given our full trait set UNTIL level 80. This is perhaps the fundamental problem with the progression leveling system at the moment. We should be given all our traits by level 50 at the latest.

I definitely agree with this. Although, I generally agree with less leveling ideas in general. Give us back level 20 max and let us just go and play and explore.

#137 MazingerZ

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 09:04 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 28 January 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

I definitely agree with this. Although, I generally agree with less leveling ideas in general. Give us back level 20 max and let us just go and play and explore.

With the precursor hunt starting at 100% world completion.
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#138 El Duderino

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 09:13 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 28 January 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

With the precursor hunt starting at 100% world completion.

Indeed.

#139 Phineas Poe

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 09:20 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 28 January 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

So, you're saying that the rest of the playbase doesn't deserve more content? Just you and your massive guild?

That's not even remotely what I said.

View PostPhineas Poe, on 28 January 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

...As early as next week you'll be seeing more of the usual stuff that caters to the lowest common denominator. And that's fine. But I think the game needs a little bit of both to keep everyone happy: not just cater to casuals or the hardcore (or small guilds versus large).

There's a lot of variety in Guild Wars 2. Some people love world events. Some don't. Some never leave fractals, while others make a point to solo Lupicus every single day. Some players never leave the Mists. Some have never entered it, or some enter it only to save waypoint fees in getting back to Lion's Arch. Some players love World vs. World; some hate it. Some only do small-group roaming. Some only do zergs. Some only do GvG in the Obsidian Sanctum.

There are a hell of a lot of sub-communities that exist within Guild Wars 2, and ArenaNet has generally made a point to cater to all of them. We've gotten open world zerging, we've gotten instances, we've gotten Super Adventure Box, and we've gotten new fractals. We've gotten WXP ranks, revamped WvW maps, overhauled PvP rewards, and new maps. Not every content release ever created has appealed to 100% of the population. And I imagine a great deal of what is going to compile their "feature release" in the coming months is not going to interest everyone.

People play this game for different reasons, and some of us just like the opportunity to do something large and chaotic and challenging as a guild. There is nothing in this game that gives us that, or at least there wasn't until Tequatl and Wurm. Why can't you just accept that not everything is meant for everybody, just like how a fractals update doesn't interest the GvG community?

It doesn't matter if every single release doesn't necessarily appeal to your interests, but that by the end of the year they've at least hit all the check marks. Wurm was a pretty big check mark for me and my guild, so excuse me if I'm not really concerned that Johnny Hotjoin doesn't give a shit about Wurm. He can wait two weeks for the next content release. I've been waiting a year and a half for something like this.

View PostOppenheimer76, on 28 January 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

If you are running a guild that large, you know what it's like to be missing key guild features (essentially last login/transfer of guild leadership if GM quits/disappears, managing membership/applications ingame) stuff that's easily patched in by the way, but chosen not to for whatever reason. Add in to that, that you, as a guild have NO way to pick an instance of the wurm or marionette if you choose to and label it <My Guild> Wurm Event similar to an LFG posting that would allow for steady organization.

This has already been discussed. I was called an "elitist" for wanting it.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 28 January 2014 - 09:22 PM.


#140 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 09:29 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 28 January 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Exactly how much research are you expecting "the weak" to put into this in order to enjoy the game?  The client itself does a rather piss-poor job.  They would have to go to outside resources, which it's been explained time and again, the level of community interaction outside the client is apparently a "vocal minority."
It's worth noting at this point that on their official forums, which would be the absolute first place one would think of starting looking for this kind of information, actually asking questions of any depth whatsoever will get you banned summarily as a troublemaker.

#141 Oppenheimer76

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 10:22 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 28 January 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

That's not even remotely what I said.



There's a lot of variety in Guild Wars 2. Some people love world events. Some don't. Some never leave fractals, while others make a point to solo Lupicus every single day. Some players never leave the Mists. Some have never entered it, or some enter it only to save waypoint fees in getting back to Lion's Arch. Some players love World vs. World; some hate it. Some only do small-group roaming. Some only do zergs. Some only do GvG in the Obsidian Sanctum.

There are a hell of a lot of sub-communities that exist within Guild Wars 2, and ArenaNet has generally made a point to cater to all of them. We've gotten open world zerging, we've gotten instances, we've gotten Super Adventure Box, and we've gotten new fractals. We've gotten WXP ranks, revamped WvW maps, overhauled PvP rewards, and new maps. Not every content release ever created has appealed to 100% of the population. And I imagine a great deal of what is going to compile their "feature release" in the coming months is not going to interest everyone.

These points you're discussing demonstrates exactly what's wrong with Guild Wars 2 however, they are trying to cater to all types of MMO players. There's another way more successful game that runs with that formula.

One of the trends inside development now is catering to niches. Building strong developer to player relationships, so that people will stay with you not due to marketing but to your work. It's one of the reasons hardcore survival sims are popular, because it was a niche that no publisher wanted to touch.

In order to build your playerbase, you need to find your niche, and serve that as best you can.

You simply can't please everyone, and this (endless complaning) is what tends to happen when you try. There needs to be focus and direction, something the studio lacks at the moment.

#142 El Duderino

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 11:13 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 28 January 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

That's not even remotely what I said.

So you didn't say there is already plenty of content for everyone that requires 20 people or less?

View PostOppenheimer76, on 28 January 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

These points you're discussing demonstrates exactly what's wrong with Guild Wars 2 however, they are trying to cater to all types of MMO players. There's another way more successful game that runs with that formula.

One of the trends inside development now is catering to niches. Building strong developer to player relationships, so that people will stay with you not due to marketing but to your work. It's one of the reasons hardcore survival sims are popular, because it was a niche that no publisher wanted to touch.

In order to build your playerbase, you need to find your niche, and serve that as best you can.

You simply can't please everyone, and this (endless complaning) is what tends to happen when you try. There needs to be focus and direction, something the studio lacks at the moment.

And this is an underlying theme in all threads that debate the direction of ArenaNet. Thank you.

It is good to have a niche. No one is going to be WoW. GW2 certainly isn't. So, pick a niche. Focus on it. Grow it. Make it happy. Feed it. Make money and happy players.

Not this cater to everyone and make everyone miserable crap we have now.

#143 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 11:29 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 28 January 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

No, but you do go up to the Dean and complain when your professor's proven to be an inept, pompous ass who's exams haven't reflected any of the lectures or coursework for the semester.
Which would be a witty retort except for the fact that the game has A) adequately informed hundreds thousands of people and B ) you're appealing to a severe minority. You make it sound as if the number of people who don't know what traits are is the majority when really it's some obscure number probably held by either those who are new to MMOs or 16 year olds who couldn't care less and just want the shiniest armor.

View PostOppenheimer76, on 28 January 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

One of the trends inside development now is catering to niches. Building strong developer to player relationships, so that people will stay with you not due to marketing but to your work. It's one of the reasons hardcore survival sims are popular, because it was a niche that no publisher wanted to touch.
This trend is actually not prevalent.  While it does work in many marketing areas it does not work for games primarily because games are essentially spread through word of mouth. Take the D2 spiritual successor Path of Exile ( https://www.pathofexile.com/ ) which has been in development for as long as I can remember, well over a year, and just got spotlight in Gamespot. That happened and the game's quiet servers must actually have a use for the fans attached to them now.

Many indie games with continuous content such as Dungeons of Dredmore ( http://dungeonsofdredmor.com/ ) don't get much spotlight even if around for a very long time while others such as Bastion ( http://supergiantgam...ndex.php/media/ ) took off due to external endorsement. To be totally honest it's not niches that sell but instead a question of proper marketing to larger names. I can go on and on with games that you've both heard of in gaming magazines that actually weren't that good and games so obscure no one would ever hear of them except through direct word of mouth or just by wantonly searching.

The reason GW1 was not replicated is because this trend has been present for years in the gaming market. Most people are actually returning to gaming styles that are more familiar with console gaming following the same trends and "new systems" pretty much either having to make an extreme impact or just be done away with altogether.

Edited by Kattar, 28 January 2014 - 11:47 PM.


#144 Oppenheimer76

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:20 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 28 January 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

This trend is actually not prevalent.  While it does work in many marketing areas it does not work for games primarily because games are essentially spread through word of mouth. Take the D2 spiritual successor Path of Exile ( https://www.pathofexile.com/ ) which has been in development for as long as I can remember, well over a year, and just got spotlight in Gamespot. That happened and the game's quiet servers must actually have a use for the fans attached to them now.

It isn't in gamers, it IS in development. Nearly all my contacts not in a large studio are ecstatic about getting the chance to work on niche or specialized games, because more often than not the pressure to meet your players/testers demands isn't all over the place, tends to definitely be smaller, and you have more freedom.

I beta'd PoE for over a year, and I can say it was a solid beta, but it wasn't obscure by any means. The release of it (I think it's been 2-3 months?) there was no shortage of players, barring a bugged queue in the first few days.

This is pertaining more to MMO's, but being specialized is absolutely a good thing, there's a vast difference between developing a game that works in some pve, some pvp, some events, holidays, collecting, crafting, etc. and one that builds itself around one of those.

To be honest, the only thing I can honestly say GW2 is built around possibly, is the trading post/economy and RNG. They've mishandled the gem store so much it's not even worth a mention.

Edited by Oppenheimer76, 29 January 2014 - 12:21 AM.


#145 Konzacelt

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:22 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 28 January 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

The reason GW1 was not replicated is because this trend has been present for years in the gaming market. Most people are actually returning to gaming styles that are more familiar with console gaming following the same trends and "new systems" pretty much either having to make an extreme impact or just be done away with altogether.

I'm not informed enough to agree or disagree with that.  But I will say if that's true, that's really depressing.

#146 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:36 AM

View PostOppenheimer76, on 29 January 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

It isn't in gamers, it IS in development. Nearly all my contacts not in a large studio are ecstatic about getting the chance to work on niche or specialized games, because more often than not the pressure to meet your players/testers demands isn't all over the place, tends to definitely be smaller, and you have more freedom.

I beta'd PoE for over a year, and I can say it was a solid beta, but it wasn't obscure by any means. The release of it (I think it's been 2-3 months?) there was no shortage of players, barring a bugged queue in the first few days.

This is pertaining more to MMO's, but being specialized is absolutely a good thing, there's a vast difference between developing a game that works in some pve, some pvp, some events, holidays, collecting, crafting, etc. and one that builds itself around one of those.

To be honest, the only thing I can honestly say GW2 is built around possibly, is the trading post/economy and RNG. They've mishandled the gem store so much it's not even worth a mention.

The thing I don't understand is why bother bring up marketing if you're going to regress to professional development and overall enjoyment? Don't get me wrong, it's a fine thing to do, but one's marketing plan rarely has "I want to have fun" in it. I support the creation of niche games a lot but I also understand the realistic nature of the business and it's trends; other than playing games as games ( I.E. the huge burst in humor types or the direct opposite of "silent hero" / real-time human types ) there's not as much room in the market as their used to be and selling tiny bits and scraps on PSN or Xbox Live or on the web as part of the HumbleBundle deals isn't going to feed you.

Hobby creationism ( yeah, I'm just going to use that ) with games seems almost not equivalent.

View PostKonzacelt, on 29 January 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

I'm not informed enough to agree or disagree with that.  But I will say if that's true, that's really depressing.

You shouldn't be. Trends cycle throughout the years so while SNG*s are popular it won't last forever. WoW and other SNGs have seen a decrease in the past few years. My guess is GW1 type games will make a comeback long before you're dead in a few years; the people who are younger now playing games are actually part of a generation after the advent of "difficult gaming" which really did make you want to break your keyboard/controller in half ( https://www.youtube....h?v=94Y6y1MOoEo ).

*"Simple Number Game": Any game that does not use Basic (BNG) readily available mathematics in it's stats that but also does not have complex algorithms (CNG) that integrate the values into extended chains and indistinguishable parts.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 29 January 2014 - 12:41 AM.


#147 Miragee

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:45 AM

View PostMinion, on 28 January 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

Think about that, though. We're not given our full trait set UNTIL level 80. This is perhaps the fundamental problem with the progression leveling system at the moment. We should be given all our traits by level 50 at the latest.

Well yes. If it was just me I would say remove levels alltogether or at least move it back to 20 (make 1-20 = tut = learning core mechanics).
But that doesn't really matter for what I said. As gw2guru mentioned: You get a tutorial for your traits at level 11. So you sure should know about them regardless if you reached lvl 80 or not, it's basically impossible to miss. I probably should have used lvl 11 as mark in my first post.

View PostEl Duderino, on 28 January 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

I definitely agree with this. Although, I generally agree with less leveling ideas in general. Give us back level 20 max and let us just go and play and explore.

Yeah, pls. lvling is so boring. Exploring all the way. But that's not like dev's/publisher's look at it. Stuff that costs more time > stuff that is fun. Look at ArcheAge (sorry that I have to bring this up here): They completly destroyed exploration with their 1.0 patch in korea:

- lvl caps for speed boats
- no leveling through exploration (for those who don't know: AA had tons of hidden spots that gave you lots of XP if you explore them; they weren't marked like in gw2 though, you have to find them)
- most leveling hidden behind quests now
- currency for boats etc. hidden behind daily quests instead of trade-routes
- new level cap with massive amount of grind

It's horrible. It seems like every MMO shuts down on the idea of exploration because of business and inserts mandatory grind and time gating. And somehow people still play that shit. They mourn here and there but that's it.

#148 El Duderino

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 02:33 AM

View PostMiragee, on 29 January 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

Yeah, pls. lvling is so boring. Exploring all the way. But that's not like dev's/publisher's look at it. Stuff that costs more time > stuff that is fun. Look at ArcheAge (sorry that I have to bring this up here): They completly destroyed exploration with their 1.0 patch in korea:

- lvl caps for speed boats
- no leveling through exploration (for those who don't know: AA had tons of hidden spots that gave you lots of XP if you explore them; they weren't marked like in gw2 though, you have to find them)
- most leveling hidden behind quests now
- currency for boats etc. hidden behind daily quests instead of trade-routes
- new level cap with massive amount of grind

It's horrible. It seems like every MMO shuts down on the idea of exploration because of business and inserts mandatory grind and time gating. And somehow people still play that shit. They mourn here and there but that's it.

That's an atrocity. I had high hopes for that game too. I agree, inevitably, when you make a game that is supposed to capture people's attentions for years at a time, it is no wonder lazy designers resort to cheap tricks rather than than stepping outside the box and trying something really innovative.

#149 Featherman

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 03:21 AM

View PostMiragee, on 29 January 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

Well yes. If it was just me I would say remove levels alltogether or at least move it back to 20 (make 1-20 = tut = learning core mechanics).
But that doesn't really matter for what I said. As gw2guru mentioned: You get a tutorial for your traits at level 11. So you sure should know about them regardless if you reached lvl 80 or not, it's basically impossible to miss. I probably should have used lvl 11 as mark in my first post.



Yeah, pls. lvling is so boring. Exploring all the way. But that's not like dev's/publisher's look at it. Stuff that costs more time > stuff that is fun. Look at ArcheAge (sorry that I have to bring this up here): They completly destroyed exploration with their 1.0 patch in korea:

- lvl caps for speed boats
- no leveling through exploration (for those who don't know: AA had tons of hidden spots that gave you lots of XP if you explore them; they weren't marked like in gw2 though, you have to find them)
- most leveling hidden behind quests now
- currency for boats etc. hidden behind daily quests instead of trade-routes
- new level cap with massive amount of grind

It's horrible. It seems like every MMO shuts down on the idea of exploration because of business and inserts mandatory grind and time gating. And somehow people still play that shit. They mourn here and there but that's it.
Well then, ArcheAge just fell off the radar for me. It's unfortunate because up till now the game would have justified a subscription from me. I suppose MMOs are a lost cause for me at this point. I'm keeping an eye EQNest, but I'm holding my breath either.

That said, I've recently been binge playing multiplayer games (aka the healthier and less deformed cousin of MMOs) and I've noticed one key difference between them an MMOs- they engage and reingage the player with strong core mechanics and unique ideas, instead of fluff like level grinding. Take L4D2 for example. The game has far fewer assets and resources than GW2, but the structure of the gameplay and the ingenious AI engages the player to keep playing through the same levels repeatedly (though proper teaching and reiteration). I've currently clocked fewer hours on L4D2 than GW2, but of the time I've spent playing I've dealt far less nonsense and grinding than in GW2.

I truly applaud the effort that must go into the 2 week updates, but at this point it's clear that the results of that efforts haven't extended past fluff content and haphazardly implemented ideas. Given the choice between shiny new updates and more the same L4D2, I'd go with the latter because I can at least guarantee a quality experience.

#150 Phineas Poe

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 06:41 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 28 January 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:

So you didn't say there is already plenty of content for everyone that requires 20 people or less?

I did. But only in the sense that I don't feel sorry or concerned for players that can't fight the Wurm. There's more than enough content within Guild Wars 2 that already caters to them. So I just don't really see the big deal in one content release every once in a while that isn't "for" them, especially when there's always another release around the corner that is more likely to cater to the lowest common denominator as per usual. So it isn't about me wanting ArenaNet to cater all content to "me and my massive guild" as you put it. I just don't see the harm in releasing one thing for us in what is a sea of casual-friendly content.

View PostOppenheimer76, on 28 January 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

You simply can't please everyone, and this (endless complaning) is what tends to happen when you try. There needs to be focus and direction, something the studio lacks at the moment.

Well, if you think this game lacks direction I don't know what to tell you. That's your view of things and I don't think anything I say will change that. You want focus. I want choices. I like that they have built up PvE in a variety of directions rather than strictly limiting themselves to one facet or area. That's really what drove me away from World of Warcraft: that the PvE side of the game was strictly raiding and not much else. And after a while I just got burnt out.

Anyway, I'm just simply establishing that there are sub-communities within the game, and that they shouldn't be ignored. I also think that if Guild Wars 2 never ascended itself above catering to the lowest common denominator in PvE, the game really would never grow.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 29 January 2014 - 06:53 AM.





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