[Gmr Leon]

Original version here.
And here.

This is a long read. If you haven't the time to read it now, then read it later when you do have time. It cannot be completely understood skimmed over. Thank you for understanding.

A brief introduction to the Mists and the Rift.

The Manuscripts said:

Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.

In the middle of the Mists is a spot where time moves neither forward nor back. It is a tear in the fabric of the cosmos, the point of perfect balance between all forces of the universe. This place is known as the Rift, and there is nothing to which it does not connect, nothing that cannot be reached from inside it. Those who have the know-how to travel across the universe through the Mists must pass through the Rift on their way to all other places. It is the center of all things.

What makes the essence of a God or Goddess? How are they related to the Mists?

Kerrsh said:

From that look on your face, I suppose you want to know more. How can I put this so that you will understand...Gods are part of this world. Think of these "facets" as one of any number of possible manifestations of those gods.

From this example, I believe that the Gods are merely sentient pipes and faucets of the Mists. From what we’re provided in the description of the Mists in the portion describing Razah, this doesn’t sound too far off.

The Manuscripts said:

The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with a humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.

This being the case, it seems highly probable or possible, that the Mists themselves would clump together and coalesce until they formed a power, an aspect of the Mists, which could be directed by a mortal entity. These powers would contain the main element of the Mists that makes the Mists so peculiar, straining towards creation; the mortals that directed these powers, being sentient, however, might have psychological traits that are similar to humans like emotion, caring, and curiosity. This in turn would give reason for certain actions, such as the “creation” of the world and the “Gift” of Magic on the part of the Gods and would explain why they have interacted with sentient species of Tyria and perhaps, other realms, despite possibly being from another plane or world.

The current Gods may have been humans from another world, this is entirely possible. My thoughts, however, are reaching far into the past, before the current Gods to the very essence of the Gods’ power. Their powers may have been formed by concentrated areas of the Mists, which any mortal being may be capable of directing.

The Nature of the Bloodstones, Magic itself, and the Mists.

The most interesting part of Tyria, to me, is the introduction of magic into the world, which was done by Abaddon, as we all know and it states that he handed it out too freely. As I’ve shown in my other research, I think that water conducts magic, but I’ve also come to the logical jump that fluids as a whole conduct magic, and yet that magic itself is the manipulation of the Mists. What I think Abaddon did, was teach many of the races how to interact with the Mists, how to open the connection to them through their souls, or perhaps, some other, unknown means. That he taught the races how to interact with the Mists may have led to the races “misusing” this connection, or learning of certain aspects of the connection the Gods did not wish for them to know, and as such, they punished Abaddon and placed him in the Realm of Torment. In other words, the provision of magic was not the literal creation of it, but perhaps the distribution of knowledge of how to interact with the Mists.

To permit the races too much knowledge of the connection to the Mists would only end in catastrophe, as we know the raw power of the Mists can lead to massive amounts of destruction, and that would only unleash further devastation upon Tyria. If Abaddon did this with that knowledge in mind is unknown, but as a God of Secrets it seems that it may have simply been something that the benefits outweighed the costs. However, the other Gods, had to find some method by which to control this connection, but it could not be done by merely erasing all knowledge of how to utilize the connection, and thus they crafted the Bloodstones…And on that topic..

I believe that they may contain the more destructive forces of magic, but I also believe they act as a barrier against connections to the Mists. A sort of grid that produces interference of some sort, which prevents a soul’s complete connection to the Mists, which keeps the balance of power; another way to view it, could be as white noise, keeping that part of the soul’s connection asleep, or numb, or paralyzed, if you will. In short, we can simply call this the Bloodstone Interference, Magical Interference, or Interference, for short.

The Bloodstones, then, when activated, have to withdraw or increase this Interference, depending on the nature of the interaction. As it can be seen with many cases, this is a very foggy area, as when fighting upon the Bloodstones in Bloodstone Fen and Hell’s Precipice, resurrection skills take much longer, seeming to imply an increase of Interference, whereas with the Bloodstone in Bloodstone Caves, seeming to imply, perhaps, a withdrawal of Interference, as creatures that die nearer to it cause creatures around it to be healed. As such, the Interference from the Bloodstones may affect both connections, incoming, and outgoing, from the Mists. That is, incoming being the Mists themselves producing creatures on Tyria, or directly interacting with Tyria, and outgoing being the soul’s connection to the Mists to utilize it for magic, or other means.

The Interaction between the Mists and Fluids.
Every tragedy that has occurred in Tyria has usually altered the landscape dramatically, by lowering something. In the Margonite War, the water level was lowered, and the seabed exposed due to this. In the Searing, Ascalon was almost completely leveled. Orr plummeted to the depths of the Bay of Sirens (Sea of Sorrows). The Harvest Temple was brought down by the force of Shiro’s death wail which produced a whirlpool that was frozen in jade by that very same death wail.

I believe that, in the case of the Margonite War, Abaddon utilized the energy in the Crystal Sea to somehow direct the meteorites to that location to strike them down. Or perhaps it was merely the alteration of fluids in the atmosphere, somehow solidifying them into meteorites. It is very unclear how this precisely occurred, but it could not have been by the maelstrom which occurred after the creation of the meteorites, as I stated in my original version. It may be that the act that was described was performed by Jadoth himself, and was of an older, unrestrained, magic, prior to the Bloodstones, and so his connection to the Mists was complete and unhindered. However, this does not completely explain the interaction of the Mists with the water of the Crystal Sea, and I am uncertain how the two would precisely connect, unless connections are made stronger in proximities to large amounts of fluids.

In the case of the Harvest Temple, we’re provided a wonderful, wonderful fact that further proves that the Gods are sentient pipes and faucets of the Mists, magic is just a manipulation of the Mists, and that one can sidestep the barrier produced by the Bloodstones through certain methods. In this scenario, the Gods provide the Emperor with a part of their power to distribute among the people to ease their burdens, however, through rituals, Shiro made himself capable of stealing this power, but this could only be done by releasing the power through death. The Emperor was a conduit and a container, which Shiro managed to make himself into as well through his rituals; however, Abaddon manipulated him to bypass the Bloodstone Interference. He wanted to throw the Gods’ power in their face, and used it as a way to get souls to help his other motives. When the power was released by Shiro’s death, it was as though the connection to Mists was unblocked, with no Interference in the way, leading to the power pouring through, and, with nothing sentient or sapient trained to contain it, it was absorbed by the fluids and the people. The fluid being whatever there was a larger concentration of in the area, in the Jade Sea, this would have been water, and in the Echovald, this would have been in the vacuoles of the cells of the plants. The reason for the people is because of their preexisting connection with the Mists, even if it isn’t utilized, it is there if they choose to use it.

When it comes to the Searing and Cataclysm, it would appear that the artifacts themselves held the creator’s magic, and of course when used correctly, bypassed the Bloodstone Interference by the containment of the magic prior to the Interference preventing complete connection to the Mists. If the magic is stored within an object prior to the Interference, well, there was nothing to prevent complete connection to the Mists then, so the raw energies could be channeled into objects for whatever usage.

However, in the case of the Searing, it would appear that the concentrations of water in the region may have had some effect on the meteorites landing sites, as it can be observed that many landed in spots where previously there was water. This is still uncertain though, and it may be an extremely bizarre coincidence that it occurred.

In summary: I don’t have an honest, bloody, clue, how the two interact. When flowing, it makes a degree of sense, as there’s energy there, and it somehow affects the space around it, and if the Mists are in actuality just space that pervades everything, then that may lead to a possible explanation, but I do not have a firm understanding of the dynamics of fluids, so I cannot elaborate.

Souls, Souls, the Never-Ending Energy Source?

So, I’ve come to the conclusion that magic is just the Mists being manipulated, but souls happen to be a key energy source for Margonites, Demons, Mursaat, and perhaps even the Gods themselves. The end conclusion then must be that souls, when within a body, are no different than the Gods themselves; they are pipes and faucets of the Mists, just as the Gods are. The only major difference is that the Gods have found the pipes of the rawer energies of the Mists, and they’ve found a way to connect their pipes to them without breaking their pipes from an overflow of energy. Or, if one prefers the Eternal Alchemy explanation, they examined their gears, and found out how they fit into the gears of the raw energies of the Mists, and thus integrated their gears into those gears without becoming the wrench that causes the gears to tear the universe asunder.

How this relates to souls being utilized as an energy source is rather simple. The souls, jumping back to my pipe comparison as it is better here than the gear one, are pipes. Their bodies were the faucet. Without a body, their connection to the Mists is plugged up, they can’t use magic, and thus they cannot manipulate the Mists. This may be due to the body’s containment of fluids, perhaps displaying their integral role in interacting with the Mists. Whatever the case, at death, the faucet, the body, is removed, and the pipe, the soul, is plugged up. Due to this, they’re just a pipe waiting to burst, full of the Mists’ energy unexpressed. Margonites, perhaps being nothing but walking energy now, and not having a digestive system as far as we can see, then may be forced to consume souls as souls are merely pure energy, and do not require energy. Demons, however, appear completely different, they appear as though they might have a digestive system, so why they consume souls is unknown; it may just be a preference, or an evolutionary adaptation being natural inhabitants of the Mists. The Mursaat use them for obvious means, they use them to seal the Door of Komalie, and as such, their devices, the Soul Batteries, may simply be “soul digestive systems” of sorts. That is, they drain the soul’s energy until it has merely rejoined the Mists, thus, digesting them.

How the Sylvari fit into the Mists.

We have very, very little information on the Sylvari at the moment of my writing, but, there is some interesting information we do have that can lead to elaborations on how they connect to the Mists. It would appear, that the Pale Tree may be a, to use a clock reference to get away from the pipe references, an escapement. That is, it causes the ticking of the clock, the birth of the Sylvari, and it seems that it may be able to store and distribute the memory of the other Sylvari to the newborn Sylvari through the Dream of Dreams, thus, it also manages the time, the memory of the race.

How does this work with the Mists? Well, it’s certainly difficult to say, as it isn’t a system we’ve seen in any of the other existing races or creatures, except perhaps the Great Destroyer and the Destroyers, but this would not be an accurate comparison. The Great Destroyer was the mind of all the Destroyers, whereas the Pale Tree and the Dream of Dreams is not the mind of all the Sylvari, as the Sylvari still seem to maintain independent minds. If anything, it would seem the Sylvari are as much the escapement to the Pale Tree as the Pale Tree is the gear train that powers them, the escapement.

What it would seem to be, however, is that the Pale Tree is very akin to the Soul Batteries of the Mursaat. The Pale Tree, may, in fact, absorb the energy of the souls in the area around it as nourishment, and store the memories, the personalities, of those souls, and then rearrange the personality traits and characteristics and memories of them into what is most essential for survival, and deposit them within the Sylvari. This may provide another explanation for why many of the Sylvari appear female, as Ronan’s memories may have been dominated by his wife and daughter, and the appearance of males, due to the memories of females of their husbands, brothers, etc.

As I’ve posted in another thread, here is a diagram of how it may work…



After the birth of a Sylvari, the connection that provided them with those memories, however, may not be severed. Instead, the Pale Tree may serve as a sort of Central Soul, or Central Mainframe, or physical embodiment of the Dream of Dreams, to which the experiences of all the Sylvari are pooled together, so that, if you were to destroy the Pale Tree, they would still maintain their memories and experiences, but they would no longer have this convenience of pooled knowledge. Perhaps they would lose their memories and experiences though? Perhaps the Pale Tree, if it is the physical embodiment of the Dream of Dreams, would sever their connection to one another. This remains to be seen though…

How the Elder Dragons fit into the Mists.

Honestly, I don’t think there’s much to say about the Elder Dragons and their interaction and relation with the Mists. They appear no different than any other creature we’ve encountered. They’re just a gear that fits into the gears of the rawer energy of the Mists, much like the Gods are. Whether these are the same gears the Gods fit into is unknown though, but whatever the case, the Elder Dragons either have a very leaky faucet, or they just don’t care how much of their energy flows out. Perhaps it was simply due to their hibernation? Rusty gear producing friction to get back into the flow of things? Either way, it simply seems that they tap into the raw energy of the Mists.

Perhaps this is by the same means the Gods may be able to post-Interference, perhaps they tap into an older, less used part of the connection to the Mists, unknown even to the Gods.

At any rate, this is my revised view on the nature of the Mists, I felt it would be appropriate to update this, with the information we now have, and the speculation occurring currently on all of this.

[Firebrazer]

Interesting read. I really like the idea of magic being the manipulation of the mists. Sounds very plausible as well. Gotta love GW2 lore:P

[Margonite Ascendant]

Interesting indeed , this really makes me think of the mists as the Warp of Wahammer 40k.

I 'm not sure wether you're right about the bloodstones tho , perhaps the key stone is the dampener , but the rest are use to divide the four schools.
Perhaps they focuse the particular school of magic in themselfs , that way a mortal has to dedicate himself to one school of magic as it takes all his power and knowledge to use that school to it's full extent as the power is constantly being sucked by the stone.
That way if anyone tries to learn the four schools at once will be rendered very weak in each of them.

As for magic and water , the most major displays of magic were from Abaddon and his servants. Being a former god of water i think watery areas allow more of his power to bypass the locks of the Realm of Torment. As it has a natural affiny for such places.

[Wraithmare]

very interesting read, and can definitely explain a lot.

For example in your explanation of Shiro bypassing the bloodstone "dampener" effect and the resulting explosion by the release of that power (instead of transfer to another person/thing) could very well explain why the Elder Dragons were in a sleep-like state for so long. Whatever force defeated the dragons in the first place (likely candidates include the Great Dwarf or w/e gods were around at that point) may have encountered the same problem as we did when defeating Abbadon. That power or conduit to the mists has to be contained or it will go jade wind, and with creatures as strong as the dragons the resulting escape of energy would likely have utterly destroyed Tyria. Thus the powers defeating the dragons would likely have had no choice but to put them in the state they stayed in until GW2, they had no way of transferring such power (already having strong connections to the mists themselves they would likely not have been able to take the dragons power for their own).

[draxynnic]

Hrrmn. Interesting read, and largely fits with my own thoughts. However, I'm inclined to think that the Bloodstones aren't just interference but also a means of getting past that interference - a character taking a profession is essentially attuning to the Bloodstone associated with that profession, and that stone then withdraws its interference of energies of the Mists associated with that Bloodstone.

Also, as a nitpick, there are plenty of examples of spirits in GW who can perform magic - incorporeal undead such as Wraiths, the Ritual Priests in Elona Reach, and I would argue the spirits summoned by Ritualists are all capable of performing magic without the benefit of a corporeal existence.

[Thalador]

I wouldn't dare to argue with this one, because this post is extremely deep. However, when more informations will be released, or will be found out in GW2, then I'll start making my own hypothesis. :devil:

And I agree with Draxynnic. Shiro is another example of spirits using magic. He's an Envoy, although he's a powerful spirit too. After all, he killed us once in a matter of seconds.

[draxynnic]

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

And I agree with Draxynnic. Shiro is another example of spirits using magic. He's an Envoy, although he's a powerful spirit too. After all, he killed us once in a matter of seconds.

Although he probably did become stronger once he regained a mortal form, at the cost of losing the advantage of invisibility (which he'd already lost when we became Weh No Su). In Vizuneh Square, I've always thought of it as him simply going Meditation of the Reaper when we had no way of detecting him to stop it.

[Rivenheart]

You forgot Lord Odran

Quote

Using a spell of his own devising and the sacrifice of many souls, Lord Odran, a powerful arcanist who specialized in the study of temporal distortions, opened a portal that offered him access to the Mists and eventually into the Rift itself. The spirits who had given their lives to earn access to the hallowed afterlife were outraged. They turned their fury upon the intruder, attacking Lord Odran with all of their legendary, collective might. But it had been hundreds of years since most of the spirits had interacted with the physical world, and none of them had ever done so in their shadow form. As powerful as they had been in life, they could not harm the physical manifestation of the wizard lord—not yet. He was untouchable here in the land of the dead, and he traveled freely through the Hall of Heroes.

Over the years, Lord Odran learned to use the Rift to travel across the multiverse. He opened portals on nearly all of the different worlds, turning the Rift into his own personal gateway. But though he was clever, the wizard lord was himself only mortal, and eventually the spirits of the Hall discovered a way to interact with the corporeal world. Odran’s last physical journey through the Rift cost him his mortal life. The wizard lord was torn to shreds by hundreds of angry souls seeking retribution for his trespasses.

When Odran’s mortal body died, the wards and enchantments that kept his portals hidden failed, and the gates to the Hall of Heroes were laid open to all who were able to find them. The wizard lord had been canny though; Odran knew that one day he too might be ensconced in the Hall of Heroes, so he hid the portals in the most treacherous locations he could find. The fear of death, he surmised, would keep the meek at bay.

But a long time has passed, and it is clear now that the wizard lord, like the gods before him, underestimated the greed of men. Over time, the whereabouts of the portals have been revealed. Though they remain difficult to get to, there are those with enough skill and enough bravery to reach them, and every day the numbers of intruders to the Hall of Heroes rises.

An unending battle for supremacy rages inside the Hall. The spirit inhabitants have taken to playing groups of mortals against each other for sport, placing bets on which will make it farthest and giving special aid to those they favor. Control of the Hall itself has its rewards—and its costs as well.

It does somewhat support your theory of cross dimensional Gods/humans

I think you're over-complicating the Sylvari theory though, I honestly feel that they are much more akin to the creation of Razah, but in the physical world, with the tree being the conduit for the Mists.

[Arghore]

One thing that struck me when in arbor bay, the water there twinkles of magic, similar to the water in bloodstone fen; but other then in bloodstone fen, the water does not have an effect ... (i checked if there might be a river comming from bloodstone fen, but they are very far appart; and if there was a river i would have to be a underground river, the idea being, the water still twinkles with the bloodstone's magic, but this magic since its large distance from the bloodstone is to small to actually cause the related buff (the tree standing in this magical water for years might cause an effect though) - the distance between Fen and Arborbay and the lack of a river on the map (unless underground) makes this theory somewhat unlikely...

But seeing your conduate/soul storrage (and thunnel from the myst) theory, what if the tree was actually ON a bloodstone, but instead of working as a soulstorrage it actually works as a Thunnel (from the living tree) through a bloodstone (distortion effect), this would then mean the Tree's thunnel to the myst (like every living thing is connected to the myst) works as a conduate for the distortion of the bloodstone, causing the bloodstone to have very little effect on the surroundings (appart from the twinkle that shows magic is strong in that area) ... but over the years the distortion from the bloodstone , ventari's blessing on the tree , and the natural connection between the Tree and the mysts ... make not for some sort of soul storage, but a soul release point, seeing these souls exit through the 'Thunnel' that makes the Tree, with the distortion of the bloodstone into a new race that makes sylvari ... perhaps a bit of a weird connection, but seeing Zhaitan raises orr with all the inhabitants as undead, perhaps the souls that belong to those bodies try and find a way back to Tyria aswell, the Tree's Thunnel and the bloodstones distortion allow for this transition, but in the rather 'weird' form of Sylvari ... this would explain the male and female forms of these sylvari through the simple fact that the new entity takes on the sex of the soul that manages to get back onto Tyria ... This would also be a good Lore aspect to have the Sylvari fight against Zhaitan, along side of everybody else, seeing they are actually fighting for the freedom of Orr, their 'homeland' (so to speak..)

These connections i make, are not entirely just made up, the Shards of Orr dungeon is in Arbor Bay (allready giving Arbor Bay a connection with Orr) ... Getting a better idea of the Lore of Ventari could perhaps give more clues of what makes this Tree (AND his care for it ) so special, that aprox. 220y later it gives birth to a whole new species (this species has to come from the mysts, i hope you agree with me on that one) ... why did Ventari choose Arbor Bay, or more precise that location to plant the tree? Is the dream of dreams (connection between sylvari) caused by the fact that their bodies are actually raised undead, their live essence housed in Tree Like creatures, while their souls (as old as the sinking of Orr, allready decayed somuch that they have 'technically' become part of the mysts ...

Some of this sorta makes sence to me; or does atleast give an explination for some of the aspects of the sylvari, your part on the mysts and the bloodstones distortion, the magical twinkling of arbor bay, the Shards of Orr Dungeon being there, a reason for 'This' tree to become so special ... and a reason for the Sylvari to fight to defeat Zhaitan and reclaim Orr (for they would be the rightfull enhabitants) ...

Thoughts anyone else, or more interesting, 'facts' from lore that either add to this or disprove certain aspects i assume?

Rivenheart said:

I think you're over-complicating the Sylvari theory though, I honestly feel that they are much more akin to the creation of Razah, but in the physical world, with the tree being the conduit for the Mists.

this was an add while i typed, and i think the above, although perhaps even more complicated, does make for a reasonable theory that fits with the idea of a living being being a thunnel from the mysts, and the bloodstones being either a distortion or like someone else mentioned an further conduate for the magic in the myst ... its that tree on that place (not another plant there, not a tree 200y away) its that tree that has something special, that has to do with either its species/Ventari/ or the place where it grows...

Edited by Arghore, 06 September 2009 - 04:40 PM.

[draxynnic]

Arghore said:

Thoughts anyone else, or more interesting, 'facts' from lore that either add to this or disprove certain aspects i assume?

The main one I can think of is that most of the souls of the people of Orr ended up in Torment. Of course, it's possible that they "thunneled" back afterwards. (Do you mean 'tunnel'? Or maybe 'funnel'?)

[Arghore]

i think i mean both :) , isnt Tunnel the actual thing (a physical hole through the ground or mountain), Funnel a flow/direction a stream in a certain direction .. ak a Tunnel is a Funnel of air through the ground or mountain ... i think in my thread i mean a Funnel that is like a Tunnel from the mysts to the living entity, with the meaning for which Leon uses 'Pipes' ... Pipe=Tunnel=Funnel ... ;)

Hmmm torment you say... taking from the thread below:
http://www.guildwars...10387066&page=2
The bloodstone could only be Denial, Destruction, Keystone (with preservation and agression allready used up by Fen and Cave) ... and the Bloodstone still in abaddons mouth being either ... Denial or Keystone would make sence for an arborbay bloodstone (cant see destruction work) ... perhaps Denial works best, it could explain the behavior of the Windriders in that place, constantly circling the bloodstone that i would associate with Mesmer Power, Denial also seems to fit the Sylvari reasonably well as they get born as 'addults', being denied youth, they seem to be in denial of their excistance or their purpose constantly exploring, and to Deny one is actually in the Realm of Torment or to Deny one is actually dead (and body part of Zhaitan's army) ... also one is Denied of any buff in that area, although the water is clearly magically influenced (which would indeed go with Leon's argument of water conducting magic)

[Giga Strike]

I fail to see how the Bloodstones work as interferance. The Bloodstones were created to control the flow of magic into the world through specific points, rather than freely. This doesn't mean that they prevent interaction at a personal level, this means that the point where magic enters the world is changed (funneled). This was done so that the world's connection to magic could be plugged when the gods through the stones into Abbadon's Mouth.

The curse of the Bloodstone didn't have it's effect because of interferance, it's because the Bloodstone Fen stone was the one that channeled Denial magic. The one in Hell's Precipice alos had the same effect, but I'm thinking that this may have simply been a mistake on the game designer's part (this is supported by the fact that the stone in Sparkfly Swamp had no curse, showing that this isn't a common trait. Instead, it had healing properties, showing that the Bloodstones channeled the essence of each particular school of magic).

Also, there is no proof to say that water conducts magic. Water is everywhere in the world, it's very likely that a large, destructive spell happening at any point at random would be somewhere near water. And what makes you think that the meteors that defended Jadoth found their target because of the crystal sea? The meteor spell can ht anywhere and the crystals that caused the searing hit everywhere (we know this because the entire valley is charred). And more still, the Jade Wind didin't happen because of the Jade Sea, it happned because Shiro has an enormous amount of power. If you remember, he did it again at the end of Factions.

Finally, your saying the mists are a series of pipes? /joke, don't take this seriously.

[ShadowedSin]

I think in a way Leon that perhaps the Mists are a combination of what we can all the "Spirit" or otherworld and mythos of the "Dream World".

[Gmr Leon]

[quote name='Margonite Ascendant']I 'm not sure wether you're right about the bloodstones tho , perhaps the key stone is the dampener , but the rest are use to divide the four schools.

Perhaps they focuse the particular school of magic in themselfs , that way a mortal has to dedicate himself to one school of magic as it takes all his power and knowledge to use that school to it's full extent as the power is constantly being sucked by the stone.

That way if anyone tries to learn the four schools at once will be rendered very weak in each of them.[/QUOTE]

As I said, I'm very uncertain on this entire area.

[quote name='Draxynnic']However, I'm inclined to think that the Bloodstones aren't just interference but also a means of getting past that interference - a character taking a profession is essentially attuning to the Bloodstone associated with that profession, and that stone then withdraws its interference of energies of the Mists associated with that Bloodstone.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps..It's all very unclear. The way I look at it, it seems as though the Bloodstones don't so much as provide power, but restrict it, only providing it under certain circumstances. Such as sacrifice, death, etc.

[quote name='Draxynnic']Also, as a nitpick, there are plenty of examples of spirits in GW who can perform magic - incorporeal undead such as Wraiths, the Ritual Priests in Elona Reach, and I would argue the spirits summoned by Ritualists are all capable of performing magic without the benefit of a corporeal existence.[/QUOTE]

I did realize that as I was writing up my post, but, it's fairly difficult to say. For instance, the Wraiths aren't precisely naturally occurring souls, if they are even souls, and the same could be said for the Ritualist spirits. It might even be said that the spirits are only capable of their attacks due to the channeling of the Ritualist's energy into them.

As to the Ritual Priests, well, as I said, it's difficult to say. I would just say that it's because they are on the physical, living, plane, but then we have spirits elsewhere in the Underworld capable of magic. I would say they just, like the spirits that assaulted Odran, found a way to channel their energy, but that seems like it would take some time to learn how to do..

[quote name='Rivenheart']I think you're over-complicating the Sylvari theory though, I honestly feel that they are much more akin to the creation of Razah, but in the physical world, with the tree being the conduit for the Mists.[/QUOTE]

Well, originally, I was just going to call the Pale Tree a septic tank, and the Sylvari results of it overflowing, but I thought people would find that nasty. Could you elaborate on what your thoughts are, if you don't mind? Do you mean to say that the Pale Tree is a sort of physical Mists faucet, with what comes out being the Sylvari?

Or, that is to say, Tyria's version of the Spawning Pools found in the Underworld.

[quote name='Arghore']But seeing your conduate/soul storrage (and thunnel from the myst) theory, what if the tree was actually ON a bloodstone, but instead of working as a soulstorrage it actually works as a Thunnel (from the living tree) through a bloodstone (distortion effect), this would then mean the Tree's thunnel to the myst (like every living thing is connected to the myst) works as a conduate for the distortion of the bloodstone, causing the bloodstone to have very little effect on the surroundings (appart from the twinkle that shows magic is strong in that area) ... but over the years the distortion from the bloodstone , ventari's blessing on the tree , and the natural connection between the Tree and the mysts ... make not for some sort of soul storage, but a soul release point, seeing these souls exit through the 'Thunnel' that makes the Tree, with the distortion of the bloodstone into a new race that makes sylvari ...[/QUOTE]

I don't think it's really on a Bloodstone, honestly. However, your idea of it being a sort of soul release point is interesting. Perhaps an alternative recycling of souls rather than reintegrating them into the Mists, producing life instead, avoiding the shatter into energy, coalesce in however long it takes, and produce a new connection, a new life, process that may occur.

[quote name='Arghore']why did Ventari choose Arbor Bay, or more precise that location to plant the tree? [/QUOTE]

It was actually Ronan that chose to plant the tree there, if I'm not mistaken, and, I'll need to check, but I think he chose it based on it being the ruins of his village.

[quote name='Arghore']perhaps Denial works best, it could explain the behavior of the Windriders in that place, constantly circling the bloodstone that i would associate with Mesmer Power[/QUOTE]

I think it may be more in line with the fact that, if the Pale Tree is connected to the Mists, it would be a hot spot for magical energy, as the tree would be manipulating it to grow.

[quote name='Giga Strike']I fail to see how the Bloodstones work as interferance. The Bloodstones were created to control the flow of magic into the world through specific points, rather than freely. This doesn't mean that they prevent interaction at a personal level, this means that the point where magic enters the world is changed (funneled). This was done so that the world's connection to magic could be plugged when the gods through the stones into Abbadon's Mouth.[/QUOTE]

Then you would have liked my original analysis threads, where I called it a dam. I suggest reading them, you'll see just how much my views have changed since then. (Not to mention it's much shorter.)

See, I don't think magic is an actual thing. I view it as just another expression of the Mists, a manipulation of it, as I say. Due to this, something must be preventing complete connection to it, or complete manipulation of it. If it's the connection, then, either there's something preventing the Mists from completely being in touch with the world, a barrier, or, if it's the manipulation of the Mists, then that's only prevented by something on an individual level. It means that the individual is simply lacking in training to completely manipulate the Mists, they're completely incapable due to some alteration of their connection or disruption in their connection (Interference, perhaps), or the Mists themselves have gained some level of sentience and do not allow individuals to manipulate those areas.

See, the way you view it, it would be that they produce a barrier, if I'm not mistaken, but it can't be a complete barrier as it lets some of the Mists through, so it would be a gateway or dam. Whereas, I'm completely uncertain, and I'm just throwing out ideas, of which the Interference idea is a new one of my own that I'm not going to say I completely back, as I'm not even sure how the Mists interact with Tyria and its inhabitants completely myself, and I don't think anyone else does. I'm just posing some ideas, that's all.

[quote name='Giga Strike']The curse of the Bloodstone didn't have it's effect because of interferance, it's because the Bloodstone Fen stone was the one that channeled Denial magic. The one in Hell's Precipice alos had the same effect, but I'm thinking that this may have simply been a mistake on the game designer's part (this is supported by the fact that the stone in Sparkfly Swamp had no curse, showing that this isn't a common trait. Instead, it had healing properties, showing that the Bloodstones channeled the essence of each particular school of magic).[/QUOTE]

So...You're suggesting that Bloodstone Fen is the Bloodstone of Denial? The other idea is that it's the Bloodstone of Preservation, due to the waters of the Maguuma having healing properties, and the Preservation of the Jungle itself. As to the one in Hell's Precipice, yeah, I'm not really certain on that one either, myself. I think it might have been a dev thing, but I think it may also be that the Keystone does in fact have an effect, and this effect is similar to Denial, as without the Keystone, you are denied the combined power of all the Bloodstones.

[quote name='Giga Strike']Also, there is no proof to say that water conducts magic. Water is everywhere in the world, it's very likely that a large, destructive spell happening at any point at random would be somewhere near water. And what makes you think that the meteors that defended Jadoth found their target because of the crystal sea? The meteor spell can ht anywhere and the crystals that caused the searing hit everywhere (we know this because the entire valley is charred). And more still, the Jade Wind didin't happen because of the Jade Sea, it happned because Shiro has an enormous amount of power. If you remember, he did it again at the end of Factions.[/QUOTE]

Actually, examine Pre-Searing and Post-Searing locations. Where you can go in Pre-Searing, and see water, you can, in Post-Searing, see the Searing crystals. In front of the statue of Balthazar in Old Ascalon, where a Searing crystal is, there was previously a small body of water. In Ashford, in front of the Abbey, there's a piece of raised land in a body of water, which later is struck by a Searing crystal. The waterfalls near the village are also struck with Searing crystals. Coincidence? Perhaps.

However, even with that aside, my only evidence isn't simply that, oh hey, tragedies occurred here, water must conduct magic, riiiight?!

Here is my original research on the topic of water's magical conductivity:
[URL="http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=474901"]Here.[/URL]
[URL="http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10270400"]And here.[/URL]

However, do note, that I said fluids, for the most part, not just water. Which was an alteration from original observations based on magma and the strange blue liquids in the Rabbit Hole in the Far Shiverpeaks.

[quote name='Giga Strike']Finally, your saying the mists are a series of pipes? /joke, don't take this seriously. [/QUOTE]

I knew if I said tubes, no one would take it seriously. Also, the Mists would be more like a giant septic tank, continuing on my pipe comparison. :D

[Margonite Ascendant]

Or perhaps a realm like the warp of warhammer. A paralel demension made of soul energy that is shaped by emotions and can in turn insipire emotions and etc.

[Arghore]

Hmm, ok, couple of things are being combined which makes it hard, ill try and split it up.

1. the mists, i still compare the mists largely with 'life energy' or the concept of Chi here on earth. Everything finds its origen in the mists and this mist is everywhere... if you would see it as life energy then it becomes obvious that every living thing is still connected to it (the pipe/funnel idea) ... now if i were to add to this the Scepter of Mist, which is said to be able to affect everything on the living plane, then you could agree that a living thing (through training) might be able to accomplish the same thing as this Scepter does (perhaps to a smaller extend though), this living entity can learn how to channel his connection to the mist to use it to perform magic, magic basically being influencing the plane of excistance ... focus the natural energy/mist energy (chi) into spells that accomplish a certain effect ... (this is though only one aspect of the mist, as it is clear that it also has something to do with time, this is mainly where the Rift comes in play, but lets leave this out for now... as it is clearly a different aspect of the mist)
**hopefully with this above described concept the mist/funneling/magic is to be understood more in human concept?

2. Now on the bloodstones, as i see it, these bloodstones were created by the gods to LOCK UP Abaddon, meaning, all schools of magic (the 5 remaining gods) used their strongest (snare spells/enchantments ;) ... to permanently snare Abaddon so he has a 0% movement speed for all eternity *asto put it in game mechanics*)
These bloodstones were thus not to channel magic, they were to lock up a god... if we look at what these magic 'schools', what the gods, are :

Dwayne (Suppreme goddes) : Life & Air - Monk -->bloodstone = Preservation
Melandru : Nature & Earth - Ranger -->bloodstone = Agression ('all' animal life is agressive)
Grenth : Death & Ice - Necro -->bloodstone = Keystone*** Ice/Water magic used to belong to Abaddon (see below)
Lyssa : Beauty and Illusion - Mesmer -->bloodstone = Denial
Balthazar : War & Fire - Warrior -->bloodstone = Destruction

Abaddon *was* : water & knowledge/secrets - 'dervish' --->bloodstones should have locked him up... and water was his magic, hence the Keystone makes sense in the 'school' of Grenth..

The Fen stone is in general assigned to Preservation because of the Water that gives a +3 HP regen effect alledgedly comming from the bloodstone...
The Cave stone is in general assigned to Destruction, for giving the destructive nature of the Destroyers, i think, and the bloodstone is in EotN expansion which mainly features Destroyers, so Destruction would make sence...

Ehrm doh i'm wondering away from the point i wanted to make ... which i allready made, the stones were to lock Abaddon up, meaning they should be designed to destord not to channel magic ... perhaps their combination was designed to prevent abaddon from attuning to the mist so he could reclaim his powers ... anyway, which ever way they were designed, it was to keep Abaddon locked up, so a destorting nature would fit better then a channeling nature...

[Giga Strike]

I can see why you would think that the Bloodstones dampen ones ability to cast spell, and I admire your ability to think outside the box, but your theory creates inconsitencies. When the Bloodstones were thrown into the volcano, magic disappeared and only returned once the volcano erupted, causing the races of Tyria to try to control it all again. From this, we can tell that the stones allowed the use of magic, working as a sort of dam (as you said) that magic enters the world through. I figure that this works either by attracting the magic, or perhaps the Gods gathered all of the magic that was given out by Abaddon and redistributed it in their new way. The Bloodstones cannot be preventing the use of magic if they are what allows creatures to use magic in the first place.

Also, I'm starting to see why you believe that water is so important. It's power is hinted a few time throughout the game and it would make sense since Abaddon is the god of water. However, I'm still not sure what the hints really mean. Bahltek seems to say that water can be used to see/move past illusions and/or into the mists, but renks fascination with waterfalls seems to be more because of studying how water flows rather than seeing how it relates to magic. Overall, it's a very interesting theory and I'm going to keep an eye on it.

[Gmr Leon]

Arghore said:

2. Now on the bloodstones, as i see it, these bloodstones were created by the gods to LOCK UP Abaddon, meaning, all schools of magic (the 5 remaining gods) used their strongest (snare spells/enchantments ;) ... to permanently snare Abaddon so he has a 0% movement speed for all eternity *asto put it in game mechanics*)

I like the sounds of the Chi idea, and it does seem as though it could certainly hold some water, (no pun intended) but, I think it might be Anet's own take on Chi. Let's keep in mind that they have an excellent talent for twisting the normal, and fashioning it into their own creation.

Now, to your quoted portion, I have only to say that this is incorrect. Not to be harsh, but it is. The Bloodstones were created to balance out the magic that Abaddon distributed to the races of Tyria. What was created to lock Abaddon away, however, were the gates that we traverse through in the Realm of Torment. Each gate was a lock on Abaddon.

Gate of Torment.
Gate of Pain.
Gate of Fear.
Gate of Secrets.
Gate of the Nightfallen Lands.
Gate of Madness.
Gate of Anguish.
Abaddon's Gate.

Counting them, it's a tad amusing...Eight locks on Abaddon.

As to my support for this...

Gate of Fear outpost description said:

The Gate of Fear is one of the great locks erected by the Five Gods to imprison Abaddon, weakened by the passage of the ages and the machinations of the God of Secrets.

Arghore said:

The Cave stone is in general assigned to Destruction, for giving the destructive nature of the Destroyers, i think, and the bloodstone is in EotN expansion which mainly features Destroyers, so Destruction would make sence...

Actually, this is usually assigned to Aggression, due to the health provided each time an enemy is killed close to the Bloodstone, which encourages fighting.

Giga Strike said:

I can see why you would think that the Bloodstones dampen ones ability to cast spell, and I admire your ability to think outside the box, but your theory creates inconsistencies.

Thank you, and I wouldn't be surprised if it did, except, in this case, I have to say that you are mistaken.

Giga Strike said:

When the Bloodstones were thrown into the volcano, magic disappeared and only returned once the volcano erupted, causing the races of Tyria to try to control it all again. From this, we can tell that the stones allowed the use of magic, working as a sort of dam (as you said) that magic enters the world through.

While an interesting interpretation...I can't say that this is correct..The Manuscripts say the following:

Manuscripts, History of Tyria said:

The forging of the world was complete. As their final act, the gods gathered back their gift of magic from all the races and trapped it inside a tall stone. They smashed the stone into five parts—four equal but opposing stones of magic, and one keystone. Without the keystone, the other four couldn’t be reassembled.

Each of the first four stones was the embodiment of a specific school of magic: preservation, destruction, aggression, and denial. Magic would still exist in the world, but the devastating power of all four types together would never again be at the command of one single creature. Those who accepted the gift would have to cooperate if they intended to use it to its fullest.

I can see where, from the first bold portion, you might make your mistake; however, as you can see in the second bold portion, it would still exist despite the rawer energies being divided and trapped into the Bloodstones.

In regards to them providing magic, this is mistaken. They appear to allow one a direct connection with those rawer energies of the Mists, but nothing more, and this connection is what sparked the wars. See below:

Manuscripts, History of Tyria said:

As is ever the case with peace, it once again came to an end when the volcano erupted, spitting out the five stones and scattering them across Tyria. The magic they embodied seeped out into the lands around them. Though the Bloodstones, as they are called, have never been reunited, the power that they possess was enough to re-ignite the desire for power in the hearts of men.

Giga Strike said:

I figure that this works either by attracting the magic, or perhaps the Gods gathered all of the magic that was given out by Abaddon and redistributed it in their new way. The Bloodstones cannot be preventing the use of magic if they are what allows creatures to use magic in the first place.

As I've said, I'm not completely sure how it all works. However, as I have shown above, the Bloodstones can prevent the use of certain types of magic, because they are not what permit creatures to use every type of magic.

Giga Strike said:

Also, I'm starting to see why you believe that water is so important. It's power is hinted a few time throughout the game and it would make sense since Abaddon is the god of water. However, I'm still not sure what the hints really mean. Bahltek seems to say that water can be used to see/move past illusions and/or into the mists, but renks fascination with waterfalls seems to be more because of studying how water flows rather than seeing how it relates to magic. Overall, it's a very interesting theory and I'm going to keep an eye on it.

It's not entirely a belief, so much as it seems to be indicated by the game itself. If the game did not indicate it, I could not come to any such conclusion.

As to Renk's fascination, well, I don't think it's the flow...As I, think, I showed in that thread with a quote, he sees patterns where others see only chaos..So he sees some kind of pattern in the waterfalls. The Asura tend to mention ether quite a bit..Perhaps an etheric pattern effected by the flow of the water...After all, surely they had waterfalls underground, so his interest can't just be in the flow of the water, I would think.

There's a theory in physics that proposed the ether as a universal constant which pervaded absolutely everything from my understanding of it, so..It's a thought..

[Rivenheart]

Quote

Quote

I think you're over-complicating the Sylvari theory though, I honestly feel that they are much more akin to the creation of Razah, but in the physical world, with the tree being the conduit for the Mists.

Well, originally, I was just going to call the Pale Tree a septic tank, and the Sylvari results of it overflowing, but I thought people would find that nasty. Could you elaborate on what your thoughts are, if you don't mind? Do you mean to say that the Pale Tree is a sort of physical Mists faucet, with what comes out being the Sylvari?

I wouldn't say it was a faucet, but some sort of weakening in the barrier separating the world and the mists directly.

The Movement said:

Whether the tree, tended by Ventari, somehow became imprinted with the noble Centaur's morals and ethics, or whether it absorbed both the remains of the Centaur's flesh as well as his compassionate soul upon his death, no one knows for certain.

GW Wiki said:

When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.

If you look at the descriptions of Razah and Sylvari, they're somewhat similar:

GW Wiki said:

Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, Razah will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren.

The Movement said:

It is unknown how old a Sylvari can become, as they come forth fully mature and show no signs of aging thereafter. Sylvari have no children, no families as such, but each Sylvari feels a special connection with others through what they call the “Dream of Dreams.” In this dream, they commune with the inner mind of the race, learning how to speak, walk, use simple tools, and interact with the world. Thus, when a Sylvari emerges, she knows a great deal more about the world than one might expect.

But the Dream of Dreams also contains nightmares—hidden whispers behind the voices of their fellow Sylvari. They do not understand what it means—but the Sylvari have yet to experience much of the world around them. They do not know the dangers and troubles of Tyria as intimately the other races do. But they are learning.

I'm not saying they are the same, but there are some similarities. Maybe after Ronan and Ventari died, they managed to hold some connection to the tree and from there the Mists found its suitable human template

[Gmr Leon]

Certainly possible...Although it makes it even more curious as to where the seeds came from, or how they would hold that characteristic.

[Rivenheart]

Actually, I believe the species of the tree is somewhat irrelevant (although Movement refers to it as an Oak, but describes it as a seed-pod, so the point is confusing).

Matrix Revolutions said:

Neo: I just have never...
Rama-Kandra: ...heard a program speak of love?
Neo: It's a... human emotion.
Rama-Kandra: No, it is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies.

In relation to GW2:
The tree is nothing more than some gnarled tree growing in some swamp, but the connection to the tree is the important part. To two people (one human, one centaur, but whatever) it was something much more. While Ventari created the philosophy to guide the Sylvari, it was Ronan who planted it in the memory of his family, the reason Sylvari look more human than centaur being possibly due to Ronan's emotional investment.

[Arghore]

Gmr Leon said:

I like the sounds of the Chi idea, and it does seem as though it could certainly hold some water, (no pun intended) but, I think it might be Anet's own take on Chi. Let's keep in mind that they have an excellent talent for twisting the normal, and fashioning it into their own creation.

I would agree the mists is more then just Chi ... 'Life' energy is perhaps a better comparison for the mist (here on earth this is worked out most in the aspect of Chi though, esp. in relation to your mention of the relation of it to 'magic', hence i mentioned it) ...
!!!A backing of the life energy Hypothese would be that the 'Scepter of Mists' actually gives a HP Regen Bonus ... It's sister staff 'The scepter of Orr' gives an energy bonus, the sister relation means both staffs have something to do with the mist (so the mist also has an energy part), the scepter just became known as the Scepter of Orr since Arah was the capital of Magic and mana is more important for casters, so in this Captital the Scepter of Mana would hold more value over the Scepter of Health, and thus one Got to be known as the Scepter of Orr; the other scepter held its relation with the Mist, as the scepter of mists ... **sounds plausible to me**

*The scepter of the Mists controlls the physical plane, and thus works similar to the suggested way the mists is used to perform magic...

*The scepter of Orr controlls the beyond physical plane (Titans, Undead), and thus works similar to the Mists on the side of the Mists

Quote

...The Bloodstones were created to balance out the magic that Abaddon distributed to the races of Tyria. What was created to lock Abaddon away, however, were the gates that we traverse through in the Realm of Torment. Each gate was a lock on Abaddon.

Gate of Torment.
Gate of Pain.
Gate of Fear.
Gate of Secrets.
Gate of the Nightfallen Lands.
Gate of Madness.
Gate of Anguish.
Abaddon's Gate.

Counting them, it's a tad amusing...Eight locks on Abaddon.

Ah, tnx for this explination, seeing these things take part after one another (lock up abaddon/create bloodstones), i had understood the Bloodstones to be the lock ...

Quote

Actually, this is usually assigned to Aggression, due to the health provided each time an enemy is killed close to the Bloodstone, which encourages fighting.

Hmm i knew it was either Destruction or Agression, i went with Destruction because of what i mentioned, though one could argue that the buff would also encourage destruction, as both are somewhat similar ... To me it meant more that the stone of Denial (mesmer) would be available to be laying under the Sylvari Tree (Dream of Dreams, another thing that strikes me as 'Illusion' and 'Beauty', both going very well with Lyssa and Mesmers :)

---------------------back to bloodstones and the Mists
With my new understanding of the bloodstones (not locking up Abaddon, but) locking up alot of the magic Abaddon distributed, one would say that that implies the bloodstones to be indeed more of a barrier then a source. In relation to the mists (the mists being the source of magic, by using the natural connection a living entity has with the mist, to funnel it into spells that affect the plane of reality), then these bloodstones would work as a barrier to prevent tomuch of the mists entering the plane of reality, one can still use magic (as it is said) but only to a certain power level,

This would mean the bloodstones are a barrier (to the use of more power) and at the same time could be percieved as an overflow (resistance/relay (?) - meaning you can try to draw more power from the mist, but at a certain powerlevel these mistpowers flow back to the bloodstone, which prevents one to use more of it) ... another way they might work would be as sieve between the mist and the physical plane (this i think is more how the 'one attunes to the bloodstones' percieve them), meaning magic/mist can still flow into the physical plane through the bloodstones, but only to a certain degree, Raw power is to 'big' to go through these sieves and stays in the mist -

--**-- (the sieve analogy made me go over what i know about the bloodstone lore again to try and see what i can sieve from it) ---
-- Abaddon distributes magic to freely (unsure if this means ALL magic or just water) lets assume ALL magic (why else would the other gods by so pissed), this would mean that to many people/creatures were tapping into the mist to use it in the physical plane, either draining the mists but more likely creating chaos ... the gods lock up Abaddon and use a stone to 'capture' all this acces of magic (this stone then becomes VERY powerfull as it harnesses all this magic)

-- The gods then break up this stone into its 5 pieces so that no-one can use all of its power (gods were not to clever, by throwing them all in one vulcano, but perhaps they knew it would erupt and scatter the pieces 'randomly' over Tyria so that even the gods themselves wouldnt know where to find them all and become an Uber God)

-- The breaking up of these bloodstones apparently happens along the 'lines' of the magic of the Gods, each remaining God gets the piece that represents/harbors the Magic they represent (from this each bloodstone gets its name), and with it a certain effect (Preservation +3regen, Agression/Destruction +XX HP for foes slain in the area, other effects still unknown)

-- Bloodstone Ritual in the Fen, the idea the whitemantle have is to sacrafice the choosen (taking from Pipe/Funnel/Tunnel idea) when they die, the Funnel that connects them to the mist is 'freed' from the physical plane, the mantle in the center then 'captures' these funnels and adds them to his own, this should then create a bigger funnel, with which they try and use to 'extract'/Connect to, the power that is locked up inside the bloodstone (agree ?)

-- Bloodstone Extraction in Caves, the idea is to use a Crystal (other sort of stone) to extract some of the Magical essence that is locked up inside the bloodstone ... this seems to work, though the old methode is dangerous, as apparently one can extract more 'magic' then the container can harness, causing explosion of the container...

-- The bloodstone/keystone still in Abaddon's mouth, i cant recall it having a certain effect (if you happen to know please add) , and it also does not seem to tie into the lore of the mission. That does not mean though that the stone there, is connected to the Seals that need to be destroyed to unlock the Door of Komalie; to some extend one could argue the Stone is the lock (key/lock-stone) to open said door and free the Titans.. (titans being Demons that house inside the mist? -- mist is said to harbor all sorts of baddies) ... the scepter just 'needs' to be there to controll what comes through it...

-- Magic can still be used: this means that living beings can still use their connection with the mist to produce magic, this seems to be a 'natural' occurring effect after the gods give the gift of magic ... getting stronger though needs alot of practice and learning (ak. earn and raise attributes, learn spell that represent ways on how the mist can be used, raise HP and Mana through lvling, Use rune stones (stone can apparently contain magic), to raise certain level in magic (through attributes) ...

*!!*the bloodstones, in my views now become unrelated to the magic there currently is, but are more of a Giant Rune Stone, that harbours all the extra magic that was given away by Abaddon. The Whitemantle try and tap into it with the Ritual, the Asura have found a way to tap outof it by the use of Crystals, which are like a stone, and can thus absorb magic from it..

-- This would mean that my bloodstone under the Sylvari tree / together with the funnel effect in living creatures, makes sense; This tree has a natural funnel (like any living being has this connection to the mist), Ronan planting it in remembrance of his Family, might mean that if he was carrying funnels from his relative with him, this get transferred to the Tree. This tree is allowed to grow fast and big by the care of Ventari (more then other plants in the area), When Ventari and Ronan die, there funnel would connect to the tree's funnel aswell (and so would any of Ventari's Followers that die near the tree. This would mean the funnel that connects this tree to the mist would grow bigger and bigger, and in analogy with the way the White Mantle try to unlock the power of the Bloodstone, this tree cant step off of it, and has decades of interaction of its funnel with the bloodstone... meaning what didnt work for the Whitemantle might well work for this Tree ... This would mean the mist (with its ability to create any form of live), now has an exit point into the Physical realm; this could mean the Lifeform would have certain Mesmer characteristic (interference from the bloodstone), Dream of Dreams sounds like an Illusion, behavior of Wind Riders in said area, twinkle in the water... But this does not have to mean these creatures would have predomenent Mesmer powers, the original bloodstone harbours all Magic... and seeing the exit point is through a tree, their attunement with nature (plant live) makes alot of sense (though could also mean the Bloodstone might be Melandru's stone) ... and the discription for the Sylvari does look alot like the discription that is prementioned for Creatures comming from the mist...

-- Other thing that struck me, Arbor bay might well have been formed by the bloodstone, smashing into the coast and with this creating Arborbay, rubble and tidal desposits of sand might have burried this bloodstone under the ground (seeing stone and thus also sand, is a capacitor for magic) this would mean the twinkle in the water does not give a buff since this bloodstone is under so much sand (stone) ... Which might also be the reason the Shards of Orr dungeon is in Arbor bay, these undead are trying to digg their way to the bloodstone, as from the coast of Orr one could clearly see the destruction this impact makes... Do realise these would have to be survivors of the Cataclism as the eruption takes place a short while after the Orr Cataclism event (though could also be the reason its Undeads that are in shards of Orr and not Orrians) ...

-!!- Reason why bloodstones relate to the mist and are thus on topic : the funnel idea suggest that magic is actually using the mist, this would mean that where on the one hand it is said the bloodstones houses all the acces magic, one could also say it houses all the acces Mist that got transferred into the physical world... or work as a lid on a funnel for more Raw power to be able to enter the world, or as a sieve ... this is more of an interpertation question then either to hold the absolute truth (untill there is more information that validates one over the other)

***last thing that relates: The Dragons
Seeing these are ancient creatures from a time (perhaps even before) the grand Lupicus, could mean they have a bigger funnel that connects them to the mist, and thus bigger powers. Especially Kralkatorric with his Corrupting nature, seems to release Mist like Power into the world... but also Zhaitan, controlling undead like the scepter of Orr does ... Jormag, although through his descriptic name i would subscibe him to ice like powers this desciptic name might only hint to his place of origen, we havent heard what sort of power he actually has ... so in this manner one could say, "size does matter" the bigger the creature the bigger the funnel to the mist might be able to become / the more live energy it needs to actually live, and this means an inherrent bigger connection to the mists, the more powerfull magic it can harness (Norn Casters anyone :devil: , then again this could also explain their shapeshifting, which can be seen as a Mist power (changing from one life form into another))

[Thalador]

Arghore said:

but also Zhaitan, controlling undead like the scepter of Orr does

It was said many times: the exact powers of the Scepter of Orr are unknown, however it does not control the undead. That was an excuse by the Vizier to lull suspicion about him, because he possessed the power to control the dead (he was a Lich, but you know that). And it is not sure either, that it controls the Titans. As Konig said many times, it's might've been Abaddon, who commanded the Titans to follow Khilbron. One thing is sure: it is a pwerful magical object.

I don't follow your arguement about this theme, because it's too deep, and 80% of it is a major speculation, which again, is deep too. Sometimes I take a look on the posts and hoping to nitpick someone. :p

I'll wait patiently for an offering to those who seek. Beyond the mists beyond the dreams. On distant shores of a land unwaking, all the answers there lie in waiting. :devil: :)

[draxynnic]

Arghore said:

The Cave stone is in general assigned to Destruction, for giving the destructive nature of the Destroyers, i think, and the bloodstone is in EotN expansion which mainly features Destroyers, so Destruction would make sence...

Actually, we tend to assign it to Aggression, since it grants power to nearby creatures when a creature dies, a Necromancer-like effect (Aggression being assigned to Necromancers due to the variety of ways Necromancers have to promote aggression - orders and the ability to make dead bodies get up and attack people, for instance).

Incidentally, it's also been confirmed that that's the Bloodstone on which the Mursaat intended to sacrifice Saidra and Evennia, which would have had the same result as if they were sacrificed at Bloodstone Fen or directly on the Keystone. It's possible that the lack of the Curse of the Bloodstone is not due to a fundamental difference but because, with the soul batteries having been filled with Lich and then rendered surplus to requirements by the other side of the Door of Komalie being claimed, the Bloodstones simply may not have the thirst for souls they once did by the time of EOTN.

Gmr Leon said:

There's a theory in physics that proposed the ether as a universal constant which pervaded absolutely everything from my understanding of it, so..It's a thought..

Was. Ether theories came from the idea that since light was a wave that had a constant velocity (as calculated by Maxwell) there had to be some medium for light to be a wave in (just as sound waves have air as a medium, and so on) and which served as an absolute measure for velocity - the ether was by definition stationary, so the velocity of any object could be measured by comparing its velocity to the ether. Around 1900, the Michelson-Morley experiment attempted to use this to make a speedometer for the Earth and gained a null result (basically impossible - even if the Earth was 'stationary' at one point in its orbit it wouldn't be six months later) which paved the way for the theory of special relativity.

There are still some people out there that support modified ether theories with various corrections to account for new experimental data, but the general rule of thumb among scientists is that if one theory keeps successfully predicting experimental results while another has to keep playing catchup, the first is probably closer to the truth.

[Giga Strike]

Gmr Leon said:

In regards to them providing magic, this is mistaken. They appear to allow one a direct connection with those rawer energies of the Mists, but nothing more, and this connection is what sparked the wars.

I looked over that passage many times and couldn't find a reason why it made sense. It states that magic stil would have existed in the world, but would be uncontrollable; yet I don't see how magic could have been controllable in the first place. If magic entered the world freely and was given to all of the races, how could hey have horded it? It was only after the Bloodstones were introduced that the flow of magic/ connection to the mists were bound to tangeble objects that could be kept away from other races, but this totally defeats the purpose. I figured that either there was something about the early workings of magic that they didn't tell us (I.E. how magic could be kept away from others so that one person could have had control over it), or the whole story simply makes no sense whatsoever.

This is why I came up with the idea that placing the Bloodstones in Abaddon's Mouth removed magic from the world, it was the only possiblility that made sense given the current information.

[Rivenheart]

Quote

It states that magic stil would have existed in the world, but would be uncontrollable; yet I don't see how magic could have been controllable in the first place. If magic entered the world freely and was given to all of the races, how could hey have horded it?

I'd assume that this is somehow related to the profession system, you can specialize in one area, but not in everything.

[Joiry]

Actually, ether (the general fantasy concept) was one of my first thoughts when I was reading the opening theory on the Mists. Aether/ether existed as a alchemical/pre-science natural philosophy concept before it was adapted as the luminiferous aether to explain light.

Here's a theory based on my initial thoughts and from reading the replies. The Mists are a kind of "etheric glue" of the universe, which connect matter and energy. They are not the source of energy, but they can transmit it and store it (which is like transmission, only halted). The glue, or stickiness, is more poetically expressed in the phrase "strains toward creation". Actually, yousay the Mists are a raw or concentrated version of the etheric glue. This medium actually pervades everything, ie "The Mists touch all things."

We don't really know the cosmology of the Guild Wars universe. Is Tyria a full planet around a star like the real universe, or a large stretch of matter floating in the Mists. In this latter view, the other locations in the Mists are not so much special places, as lesser concetrations of matter. Indeed, humans (or other creatures) from Tyria operate the same in these locations, and spirits seem to operate the same whether in Tyria or one of these "otherworld" locations. There's an interesting line in the Manuscripts from Prophecies:

Quote

When a hero dies, his spirit goes to one of two places: either it is buried with the deceased body, forever trapped inside the rotting flesh and rancid bones of the corpse, or it is released into the Rift.

This suggest the spirit does not naturally go to the Mists, or one of the locations within it. Now, we see all sorts of spirits ending up in these places, and not just those of exception individuals, so maybe this bit was retconned away. However, a lot of the spirit concentrations we see may well have ended up in the Mists for other reasons. For example, the sheer level of power of the destruction of Orr may have essentially "blasted" the Orrian souls into the Mists (and collected by Abaddon or his servants).

It makes one wonder why the Hall of Heroes exists. Its very anthropomorphic in design, really seems catered to human spirits. It doesn't seem like this sort of thing would just occur naturally, but specifically be made (or modified from an earlier state) to act as a place for the spirits of those worthy enough (well developed enough) to make it there after death.

The main difference between these otherworld locations and Tyria is the amount of matter involved (Tyria is huge) and the level to which the Mists pervade these areas.

Er, that was a bit of a diversion. Back to the Mists themselves, as a etheric glue. In this view, they are not a source of power, but certainly essential to its use. Spirits themselves may be the true source of power (and spirits which have the complexity arising from knowledge and discipline being more powerful or refined sources of power). Indeed, similar to the spirits as "chunks" of the Mists, spirits are fairly raw concetrations of the ether, tied down to some matter while in life (it may be necessary for this concentration to form as a spirit, even if later it can "survive" on its own after the loss of the body). I could go on a bit more about this, but to keep things short, I'll jump to the Bloodstones.

The Bloodstones, perhaps not exactly causing Interference, but rather a dampening effect. The Bloodstones may be multipurpose, acting as physical anchors of the Mists ability to both transmit and store energy. The intended purpose by the gods might be to dampen out large power spikes in Tyria. This could be viewed as an interference effect. But they are dampening by absorbing energy and they can also release the energy later. What is their total capacity is unknown (if it has a limit)? Do they need to vent out energy at times - or has the vent been prelaid to go someplace specific (and could be tapped for other purposes, as I go into below).

The gods may or may not have made the Bloodstones. Perhaps the gods switched them into their current mode (tuned to absorb large spikes). They may not work perfectly to dampen everything the gods wanted to, but then, you still have locks on doors even tho lockpicks exist.

The modes of the Bloodstones may have changed over time, or been modified by various groups. For example, the Mursaat use the Fen Bloodstone to absorb spirits then transfer their energy into their Soul Batteries, which are then transported to the Ring of Fire islands to power the Komalie Bloodstone. Its interesting they do this instead of transporting the Choosen down their, but I'd guess each battery con absorb enough spirits its easier to move a single battery than lots of people. It could also be the Bloodstone channeling power to the Door of Komalie is entirely devoted to this transfer, and can't act as a collector at the same time. Perhaps it is the keystone, and thus was mainly purposed for transfer.

The Sparkfly bloodstone may be operating in a low level power transfer mode. It may still have its main task of dampening large power spikes in the world, but for low power events, like a death, it quickly absorbs then redistributes the power around it.

I could go on a bit, about how maybe the Bloodstones serve as a sort of anchor for Tyria, and relate that to how energy tends to flow a lot more freely in the other pockets of matter in the Mists (UW, FoW, Torment). But I don't want to rattle on endlessly.

[ShadowedSin]

Rivenheart said:

Actually, I believe the species of the tree is somewhat irrelevant (although Movement refers to it as an Oak, but describes it as a seed-pod, so the point is confusing).



In relation to GW2:
The tree is nothing more than some gnarled tree growing in some swamp, but the connection to the tree is the important part. To two people (one human, one centaur, but whatever) it was something much more. While Ventari created the philosophy to guide the Sylvari, it was Ronan who planted it in the memory of his family, the reason Sylvari look more human than centaur being possibly due to Ronan's emotional investment.

The significance of it being an Oak, if it is, is quite large.

I want to add that Oaks in Celtic Myth are considered Door Ways to the realm of the Gods. I believe the Norse also had such concepts. Much of it draws back to the idea of the many realms and the World Tree.

[Arghore]

I had allready seen the relation with the World Tree Ygdrazill from norse myths (didnt know this was an Oak though) ... but as said for my Chi/Mists relation, A-net draws from those myths and the transforms them into something that fits inside Tyria ... does make me wonder if the Sylvari tree will have its Nidhogr though ...

[Gmr Leon]

[quote name='Rivenheart']In relation to GW2:
The tree is nothing more than some gnarled tree growing in some swamp, but the connection to the tree is the important part. To two people (one human, one centaur, but whatever) it was something much more. While Ventari created the philosophy to guide the Sylvari, it was Ronan who planted it in the memory of his family, the reason Sylvari look more human than centaur being possibly due to Ronan's emotional investment.[/QUOTE]

That sounds far too cheesy though. As far as I'm concerned, there's something more to it, but it's not because of two fellows caring for it. Ventari created his philosophy not for the Sylvari, but for anyone who would care to read it. I think it is possible that the Sylvari appearance is affected by Ronan, but not entirely due to his emotional investment, I think it had to do with the absorption of his soul, memory and energy.

[quote name='Arghore']the scepter just became known as the Scepter of Orr since Arah was the capital of Magic and mana is more important for casters, so in this Captital the Scepter of Mana would hold more value over the Scepter of Health, and thus one Got to be known as the Scepter of Orr[/QUOTE]

Er..Arah wasn't the capital of magic. It was simply the city of the Gods, nothing more than that.

[quote name='Arghore']Bloodstone Ritual in the Fen, the idea the whitemantle have is to sacrafice the choosen (taking from Pipe/Funnel/Tunnel idea) when they die, the Funnel that connects them to the mist is 'freed' from the physical plane, the mantle in the center then 'captures' these funnels and adds them to his own, this should then create a bigger funnel, with which they try and use to 'extract'/Connect to, the power that is locked up inside the bloodstone (agree ?)[/QUOTE]

An interesting thought, but I don't think the White Mantle absorbs or gains any energy from the sacrifice. However, I do think that they capture the funnels and entrap them within the Soul Batteries. Perhaps the Soul Batteries force the soul to continually channel energy from the Mists, and simultaneously extract the energy that is channeled.

[quote name='Arghore']The bloodstone/keystone still in Abaddon's mouth, i cant recall it having a certain effect (if you happen to know please add) , and it also does not seem to tie into the lore of the mission.[/QUOTE]

It has the Curse of the Bloodstone effect, same as in Bloodstone Fen, which I think I may have an idea as to how that works, thanks to Draxynnic..

[quote name='Arghore']This would mean that my bloodstone under the Sylvari tree / together with the funnel effect in living creatures, makes sense; This tree has a natural funnel (like any living being has this connection to the mist), Ronan planting it in remembrance of his Family, might mean that if he was carrying funnels from his relative with him, this get transferred to the Tree. This tree is allowed to grow fast and big by the care of Ventari (more then other plants in the area), When Ventari and Ronan die, there funnel would connect to the tree's funnel aswell (and so would any of Ventari's Followers that die near the tree.

This would mean the funnel that connects this tree to the mist would grow bigger and bigger, and in analogy with the way the White Mantle try to unlock the power of the Bloodstone, this tree cant step off of it, and has decades of interaction of its funnel with the bloodstone... meaning what didnt work for the Whitemantle might well work for this Tree ... This would mean the mist (with its ability to create any form of live), now has an exit point into the Physical realm; this could mean the Lifeform would have certain Mesmer characteristic (interference from the bloodstone), Dream of Dreams sounds like an Illusion, behavior of Wind Riders in said area, twinkle in the water... But this does not have to mean these creatures would have predomenent Mesmer powers, the original bloodstone harbours all Magic... and seeing the exit point is through a tree, their attunement with nature (plant live) makes alot of sense (though could also mean the Bloodstone might be Melandru's stone) ... and the discription for the Sylvari does look alot like the discription that is prementioned for Creatures comming from the mist...[/QUOTE]

I think you're clinging to your idea that there's a Bloodstone beneath the Sylvari tree far too much. You have an idea that, even without the Bloodstone, seems incredibly viable, thus all you need now is to just cut out the Bloodstone. I don't think Ronan carried around the souls of his relatives, though, which I think you forgot you meant that when saying funnel. However, if one of my more abstract ideas is correct, that Spectral Agony is effective because it assaults the very soul of the enemy, then perhaps, when it kills someone, it tears their soul to shred, scattering back into the world. When the Pale Tree was planted, it used these fragmented souls as if they were fertilizer, and reassembled whatever scattered memories or personality characteristics were left into the Sylvari.

And they would do the same with Ronan and Ventari's souls, except they may have just used them for energy, since they weren't torn to shreds, but this is all just speculation.

[quote name='Arghore']***last thing that relates: The Dragons
Seeing these are ancient creatures from a time (perhaps even before) the grand Lupicus, could mean they have a bigger funnel that connects them to the mist, and thus bigger powers. Especially Kralkatorric with his Corrupting nature, seems to release Mist like Power into the world... but also Zhaitan, controlling undead like the scepter of Orr does ... Jormag, although through his descriptic name i would subscibe him to ice like powers this desciptic name might only hint to his place of origen, we havent heard what sort of power he actually has ... so in this manner one could say, "size does matter" the bigger the creature the bigger the funnel to the mist might be able to become / the more live energy it needs to actually live, and this means an inherrent bigger connection to the mists, the more powerfull magic it can harness (Norn Casters anyone , then again this could also explain their shapeshifting, which can be seen as a Mist power (changing from one life form into another))[/QUOTE]

I'm still not sure how that all works, but I don't think it's entirely intertwined with their size, that just seems too simple. Although, it would seem to be supported by Abaddon's size, but immediately after Kormir becomes a Goddess, she isn't gigantic, so...

[quote name='Draxynnic']Incidentally, it's also been confirmed that that's the Bloodstone on which the Mursaat intended to sacrifice Saidra and Evennia, which would have had the same result as if they were sacrificed at Bloodstone Fen or directly on the Keystone. It's possible that the lack of the Curse of the Bloodstone is not due to a fundamental difference but because, with the soul batteries having been filled with Lich and then rendered surplus to requirements by the other side of the Door of Komalie being claimed, the Bloodstones simply may not have the thirst for souls they once did by the time of EOTN.[/QUOTE]

What if the Bloodstones never even really had a "thirst" for souls in the first place? What if it was merely caused by the inscriptions on the Bloodstones, and the Soul Batteries floating around? It may be that the inscriptions, when on Bloodstones, have the effect of channeling souls, and when Soul Batteries are around, they are channeled into these. This would suggest, based on my thoughts that the inscriptions are merely another byproduct of the Mursaat's tampering, that it may simply be the effect of the two being in place, and thus, the Mursaat.

That is to say, Inscriptions+Soul Batteries present=Curse of the Bloodstone effect. This would be supported by the fact that this effect is encountered only in Bloodstone Fen and Abaddon's Mouth. I'd have to check, but, apparently, in Hell's Precipice, the effect is not encountered, which would be further support in that by that time you have destroyed the Soul Batteries.

[quote name='Draxynnic']Was.[/QUOTE]

It's good then that 's can mean is or was, eh?

[quote name='Giga Strike']I looked over that passage many times and couldn't find a reason why it made sense. It states that magic stil would have existed in the world, but would be uncontrollable; yet I don't see how magic could have been controllable in the first place. If magic entered the world freely and was given to all of the races, how could hey have horded it? It was only after the Bloodstones were introduced that the flow of magic/ connection to the mists were bound to tangeble objects that could be kept away from other races, but this totally defeats the purpose. I figured that either there was something about the early workings of magic that they didn't tell us (I.E. how magic could be kept away from others so that one person could have had control over it), or the whole story simply makes no sense whatsoever.[/QUOTE]

And, see, that's exactly the problem I'm encountering as well. If I'm right, and magic is nothing more than manipulating the Mists, then how could they restrict manipulation of the Mists? This would require either a wiping of knowledge or experience with every creature's connection to the Mists or a severing of all their connections to the Mists, and they can't even completely get rid of every sign of a fellow God, so apparently they couldn't do that. So then, maybe they put a filter between the Mists and Tyria, blocking out the more powerful aspects of the Mists to prevent interaction with them. Or found a way to create Interference that keeps certain parts of the creatures' connections numb or dormant.

That aside, if I go further, I'll just be reiterating an earlier response to you. As to the uncontrollable part, it didn't mean magic as a whole, it meant that those aspects of the Mists would be incapable of being controlled together by one being, but those are not the only aspects of the Mists, from what we can tell.

[quote name='Joiry']Is Tyria a full planet around a star like the real universe, or a large stretch of matter floating in the Mists. [/QUOTE]

I think it's heavily implied that it's a full planet. I don't know of how a flat stretch of land could have a moon orbiting it, off the top of my head, and we do see the sun, which is a star, suggesting that it probably does orbit around one. Plus, the fact that day and night exists suggests the rotation of the planet. As I said about the moon, I don't know how one would explain day and night on a flat stretch of land.

[quote name='Joiry']Spirits themselves may be the true source of power (and spirits which have the complexity arising from knowledge and discipline being more powerful or refined sources of power).[/QUOTE]

An interesting thought that beget this thought of mine, knowledge and discipline are alteration of one's soul. Tyria is dualistic, that is, the mind and body are technically separate. The brain probably functions similarly to our own, but, rather than having to contain memory, as ours does, it has a different structure, one that somehow imprints memory into the soul. The more a soul contains, the more capable it is of retaining its personality and sense of self. The more one trains oneself, the more they fashion the foundations of their soul, as, if one does not, it would more quickly dissipate back into the Mists. At least, if that's correct.

[quote name='Joiry']The gods may or may not have made the Bloodstones. [/QUOTE]

Do we really want to go down the road of undermining all previous lore?

[quote name='Manuscripts, History of Tyria']The forging of the world was complete. As their final act, the gods gathered back their gift of magic from all the races and trapped it inside a tall stone. They smashed the stone into five parts—four equal but opposing stones of magic, and one keystone. Without the keystone, the other four couldn’t be reassembled.[/quote]

They may not have literally made the stone itself, but, I think it's safe to say they did make them in the sense of trapping magic within them.

..I don't think there's anything else I wanted to cover in this post..Alright, *click*.