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Watchwork Mining Pick


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#1 Fantasy Trope

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 06:48 PM

What is your opinion of the new Watchwork Mining Pick?

I initially thought it was like any other infinite gathering tool, but then I read this post by Vol (a strong supporter of ArenaNet and self-described "no.1 fanboy"):

https://forum-en.gui...-Watchwork-Pick

I think almost all the claims that Guild Wars 2 is "pay to win" are overblown.  But maybe Vol is right about the precedent this sets.  I would hate to see the game go down this path.

Thoughts?

#2 Kymeric

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 06:58 PM

I don't like it, but I'm not sure it really marks some threshold over which is the slippery slope to P2W, either.

As long as they keep pricing these things the way they do, it will be more convenient to simply buy gold with gems as a shortcut.  And that's been there from day one.

My take is that we tipped over that threshold with ascended weapons.  The moment they put +stats behind a stupid grind that you can shortcut with enough gold, we were on our way.  With the minor stat boost I hesitate to call it P2W, but if there was a tipping point, that was it, well before a 20% chance to get sprockets every time you mine.

#3 MazingerZ

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:02 PM

Reddit thread: http://www.reddit.co...g_pick_mask_of/

Top comments:

Quote

Why aren't ppl outraged by the fact that it gives Watchwork Sprockets too ? I have the molten mining pick and i feel like i have to buy this one too just to keep up. All future unlimited tools will have something extra while the old tools will remain outdated?

Quote

Because the most basic player doesnt realize this opens the possibility to more gathering tools like this. Next one might be guaranted orbs included also, or maybe a guaranted double ore mined on each animation.

It's a rather horrible precedent and its all about moving the Overton Window.  Saying P2W is next is something of a slippery slope, however it is showing that they're tying money directly to the increase in reward in the game and make it an acceptable practice.

The mechanism was already there with money->gems->gold, but with the monumental cost of some items, that's a large price tag to swallow.  Offering these types of things that might have a better, longer term ROI (the ability to get Watchwork Sprockets from simple gathering in addition to the mats you're already gathering) would probably be better and smaller pill to swallow.  Spreading it out amongst the various item types would allow you to broaden the target player-base and even produce overlap in repeat buyers who will buy every pick if there's a reward beyond a cosmetic appearance and effect.

Edited by MazingerZ, 28 January 2014 - 07:03 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#4 nerfandderf

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:36 PM

should help increase sales - that is the point. since most players already have the previous items create a reason to buy these new ones!

What could go wrong?

Just another bad decision but really what do you expect? They are so far out of touch with their base that one of their greatest fan bois has an issue.

Edited by nerfandderf, 28 January 2014 - 07:39 PM.


#5 Illein

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:07 PM

Unadultered ♥♥♥♥ing greed, is what I call it.

As I mentioned at another place, I won't buy it, I hope they won't get through with this, because it's passing the threshold of cosmetic and convenience and straight-up is MORE POWERFUL than similar items in the game AND even more powerful than similar items people already paid the price for.

It could set a fatal precedent if it stays like that and I hope enough people will speak up about it.

#6 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:32 PM

Am I a fan of this?  Not really.  Does it set a bad precedent?  Yes.  Will it lead to a slippery slope?  Too early to even worry about it.  Is it pay to win?  A bit overly dramatic to make that connection.  Is it game breaking?  I don't think so.  Will anyone buy this outside those in the market for an endless pick?  Doubtful.  Do I like asking and answering my own questions to everyone else's annoyance?  That a bit petty and irrelevant for you to throw in my face.

#7 lysecret

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 09:27 PM

Pls P2W really? This must be a joke.
Do I think who ever bought the Molten pick got screwed? Maybe but i think the cooler animation of the molten pick makes up for it.
And guys Guild wars 2 has by far the most playerfriendly Gemstore I have ever seen. So pls dont flame them for such a minor thing.

#8 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 09:34 PM

View Postlysecret, on 28 January 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Pls P2W really? This must be a joke.
Do I think who ever bought the Molten pick got screwed? Maybe but i think the cooler animation of the molten pick makes up for it.
And guys Guild wars 2 has by far the most playerfriendly Gemstore I have ever seen. So pls dont flame them for such a minor thing.
This is not about the molten pick.

#9 StormDragonZ

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 09:58 PM

So what are Sprockets good for again?

Don't care. Don't want. Don't worry.

#10 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 10:11 PM

View PostStormDragonZ, on 28 January 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

So what are Sprockets good for again?

Don't care. Don't want. Don't worry.

Zealot's armor, and some rune/sigil recipes.

#11 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:11 AM

I support it. It takes 3,000 sprockets to create one set of Zealot's armor. There's really nothing else to be said.

#12 Ship Soo

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:23 AM

Slight chance for a nearly useless item




Game breaker for sure
Misses the Dervish in the Worst Way


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#13 Echou

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:33 AM

Lol Sprockets.

Please. You can find better things to bash, guys..

#14 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:45 AM

View PostEchou, on 29 January 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

Lol Sprockets.

Please. You can find better things to bash, guys..
Apparently not.

First it's Sprockets. Then it's a St. Patty's Day pick that has a 15% chance to sprout 1~3c. Don't you see the light?

#15 Fantasy Trope

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:01 AM

View PostShip Soo, on 29 January 2014 - 12:23 AM, said:

Slight chance for a nearly useless item




Game breaker for sure

View PostEchou, on 29 January 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

Lol Sprockets.

Please. You can find better things to bash, guys..

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 29 January 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

Apparently not.

First it's Sprockets. Then it's a St. Patty's Day pick that has a 15% chance to sprout 1~3c. Don't you see the light?

The mockery is misplaced.  I did not raise this subject because I think this is "game breaking" or to "bash" anything.  I only started it because Vol first mentioned it on the official forums.  Vol isn't exactly a vocal and bitter critic of the game (he is the opposite--a stout defender).  Did you read his post on this subject?

The issue isn't the sprockets, which are fairly worthless.  The issue is creating a gem store exclusive item that provides access to a material not obtainable in any other way.  Does it set a negative precedent?  That is the main question.  No one is claiming (or even implying) this does serious damage to the game as is.

Not every thread of concern is groundless whining.

#16 Desild

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:18 AM

It finally happened. After year and a half of being bombarded by stupid market ploys and gem store investment, I've finally became desensitized. I don't know what to say. I virtually don't feel a thing now about this. Neither disgust, nor indifference.

That or this got me so mad that I looped back to sane. Yay?

#17 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 03:12 AM

View PostFantasy Trope, on 29 January 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

The mockery is misplaced.  I did not raise this subject because I think this is "game breaking" or to "bash" anything.  I only started it because Vol first mentioned it on the official forums.  Vol isn't exactly a vocal and bitter critic of the game (he is the opposite--a stout defender).  Did you read his post on this subject?

The issue isn't the sprockets, which are fairly worthless.  The issue is creating a gem store exclusive item that provides access to a material not obtainable in any other way.  Does it set a negative precedent?  That is the main question.  No one is claiming (or even implying) this does serious damage to the game as is.

Not every thread of concern is groundless whining.

I actually did read it. The reason I stated it requires 3,000 sprockets is not because the item is worthless but actually because the item has a value. A single sprocket can be bough for 40c; normally this is a meaningless venture but 40c multiplied by 3000 is 120,000c or reduced 12g. If scarcity were to genuinely kick-in it would be impossible to build. This axe prevents that scarcity.

People don't think ahead; Vol is right, no one will have access to watchwork components anymore unless there is some permanent dungeon that contains Scarlet's legacy ( which could very well happen anyway ) which in turn means that there needs to be a more reliable way to generate the item otherwise it becomes a legacy item and actually does fulfill Vol's prophecy.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 29 January 2014 - 03:13 AM.


#18 Featherman

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 03:46 AM

I don't even know what the stat combination is, but without looking much deeper it's obvious that the pick is pay for exclusivity, which is widely regarded as one of the requisites for being pay2win ( another more obvious being the ante game). Given the feedback it doesn't seem like the sprockets give much in the way of power, but it is a bit extra every time the player mine. This is disregarding the fact that it's an infinite use item so the players who are able to buy it within the time frame will have that advantage permanently. Plus the method of acquisition doesn't help to redeem the item of its implications either.

#19 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 03:56 AM

View PostFeatherman, on 29 January 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

I don't even know what the stat combination is, but without looking much deeper it's obvious that the pick is pay for exclusivity, which is widely regarded as one of the requisites for being pay2win ( another more obvious being the ante game). Given the feedback it doesn't seem like the sprockets give much in the way of power, but it is a bit extra every time the player mine. This is disregarding the fact that it's an infinite use item so the players who are able to buy it within the time frame will have that advantage permanently. Plus the method of acquisition doesn't help to redeem the item of its implications either.

The only problem is that Zealot's armor and it's assorted runes are not capitally offensive items. Power / Precision / Healing Power is a niche set therefore at current market rates it will not produce a "deadly medium" to the economy. I understand that this argument is based less on real-world impact ( obviously considering how the argument actually spawns it's own feared behaviors ) and more on fear but the fear itself is not well-placed. Economically if they introduced a set that relied on elements that will someday permanently disappear it would be a disaster. Think of the pick as a 20% chance to get .1% ( at max ) closer to a goal. The odds of your success are abyssmal in relation to abuse.

The only thing I would fear is if common materials could be produced this way. Oh wait, they can. The Molten Pick is an infinite pick that produces the same odds as the Ori but without the loss of replenishment. People who own that pick, no matter how they acquired it, are profiting infinitely. Forget the sprockets.

#20 Daesu

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 04:09 AM

At the price of 1000 gems, you probably need to mine for years to make it worth your investment.  No I don't think it is a problem, if you do the calculations.

#21 Illein

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 09:39 AM

View PostDaesu, on 29 January 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

At the price of 1000 gems, you probably need to mine for years to make it worth your investment.  No I don't think it is a problem, if you do the calculations.

That's not the point though. It amortises itself x times as quickly as a similar item with the same price tag people bought over the last 1.5 years.

They create a situation where you are never "done" with something.

To give an example:

A: Oh nice, now I finally got my 8 Bag slots, 8 bank slots, a whole set of infinite gathering tools, my Salvage-o-Matic and a 1000 Slot upgrade for the collection!
B: You know that they already upgraded the bank slots to 16 slots, right?
A: Oh! Sweet, more space! I'll buy another 8 of those puppies for 60 €!
B: You realize that's almost twice of what the game costs, right?
A: Yeah, but it's SO convenient to have storage room for all my 100 stacks of Bloodstone Dust!
B: Right. Oh and they just released a new mining pick...
A: Don't worry, I got those covered already! Haven't regretted it once!
B: But the new one is better.
A: Can't be, I already got an infinite one, how could it be better?
B: Gives you 20 % chance to gain an additional item when you chip away at a vein.
A: Oh..but I paid 25 € for the one I have. How much is the other? Can I upgrade mine?
B: No, you have to buy a new one for 25 €.
A: Oh...well, screw it! I'll take a bite of the bitter apple and THEN I am finally done. What are 85 € more, right?
B: Well, 8 months of content in a subscription game, i.e.
A: But the game will be so much more fun when I....pick better and...store more. I mean...whatever I just want to bedone and have the ultimate convenience and after those 85 € - I got it!
B: Until they release the Sickle, the Axe, the next 60 € worth of collection expanders, 8 more bag slots (exclusive perk, only there you can slot 30 slot bags newly introduced to the game) and the new Salvage-O-Matic which lets you salvage at a yellow-kit quality for the same 3c...
A: ...


Now I finally understand how they meant it, when they said  there's cosmetical progression for GW 2 - they actually meant convenience progression! That's rich! I can't progress through content or gameplay, but I sure can progress and upgrade and better my account through the cash shop.

My, am I lucky!

Bottom line ____

It's unnecessary to have those 20% on the pick. It's a slap in the face for everyone who bought an old one. Guess people should just sit it out from now on, because everything you buy from the cash shop could come back around as a better incarnation of itself, for the same price.

Lesson learned. They mocked the content treadmill of World of Warcraft and replaced it with a Cash Shop treadmill. Those clever little bastards! I am sure NEXON's breast swells with pride.

Edited by Illein, 29 January 2014 - 09:52 AM.


#22 Echou

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:01 AM

A: Alright, I got the spiffing new Molten Pick. No more Orichalcum picks!
B: DOOD DIDN'T YOU HEAR THERE IS THIS NEW UNLIMITED PICK?!
A: But I already got one.
B: BUT THIS ONE GIVES SPROCKETS !!!!
A: And? I already got the node.
B: SPROCKETS!!! P2W
A: What do you need sprockets for?
B: FOR THE ZEALOT ARMOR!!! POWER PRECISION HEALING POWER !!!
A: Why should I pick it up over my berserker? The zealot stats look pretty bad.
B: I....UHHHH....
A: And then you keep stacking up those sprockets just like bloodstone dust? But instead of dust, you can't avoid these ones.
B: YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU ANET LOVER!!! IT'S P2W!!
A: More like P2L

I can make imaginary conversations too!

#23 nerfandderf

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:02 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 29 January 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

I support it. It takes 3,000 sprockets to create one set of Zealot's armor. There's really nothing else to be said.

For now - who is to say new legendaries wont require sprockets?
and when there is a run on sprockets and they are worth a gold each what then?
or new sickles will provide X2 amount of material for a small fee of 1200 gems - u buy?
the next sickle after that will provide 3x the amount for 1500 gems - you buy? goto keep up u know!

same thing. People seem hung up on sprockets.

Edited by nerfandderf, 29 January 2014 - 11:09 AM.


#24 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:45 AM

A.Net is selling gold in the cash shop.

#25 Illein

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:57 AM

View PostEchou, on 29 January 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

A: Alright, I got the spiffing new Molten Pick. No more Orichalcum picks!
B: DOOD DIDN'T YOU HEAR THERE IS THIS NEW UNLIMITED PICK?!
A: But I already got one.
B: BUT THIS ONE GIVES SPROCKETS !!!!
A: And? I already got the node.
B: SPROCKETS!!! P2W
A: What do you need sprockets for?
B: FOR THE ZEALOT ARMOR!!! POWER PRECISION HEALING POWER !!!
A: Why should I pick it up over my berserker? The zealot stats look pretty bad.
B: I....UHHHH....
A: And then you keep stacking up those sprockets just like bloodstone dust? But instead of dust, you can't avoid these ones.
B: YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU ANET LOVER!!! IT'S P2W!!
A: More like P2L

I can make imaginary conversations too!

Okay, let's be real for a moment, shall we?

Sprockets do have a factual value. They aren't just fluff. They are worth something (40c-1s per pop to be precise - potentially more if they add something new for it) and in a game where the single most indicative factor of progress and success is gold, that's not something to sneeze at.

With what justification can your 1000 gems investment give you 1s 20c out of every single copper mine while mine only gives me 1s for the same price? Tell me.

You don't seem to think this through, just because the first incarnation of this practice has (wisely) chosen ♥♥♥♥ing sprockets nobody gives a shit about. The next one might not, better not to set the precedent in the first place than regret it later.

Edited by Illein, 29 January 2014 - 12:00 PM.


#26 Illein

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:04 PM

I don't even mind to be milked by a company whose product I enjoy. I haven't complained about Subscription Fees in 9 years of playing sub based models.

This is the first damn time I really spend half of my time bitching about the cash shop and what it involves, which to ME clearly indicates that they aren't doing it right, because there would be a million things I would pay for HAPPILY and not give it a second thought, but if the things they choose are lazy, exploitative and shady - I will definitely speak up against it and zip my purse shut.

#27 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:07 PM

View PostIllein, on 29 January 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

With what justification can your 1000 gems investment give you 1s 20c out of every single copper mine while mine only gives me 1s for the same price? Tell me.

1. Picks were initially priced at 800 gems.
2. Buying picks earlier allowed you to get more out of them because you have been using them for weeks or months now already.
3. The gem-gold ratio means it will take much longer for the newer picks to become profitable.
4. Shiny new model.

Take your pick.

#28 Illein

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:12 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 29 January 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

1. Picks were initially priced at 800 gems.
2. Buying picks earlier allowed you to get more out of them because you have been using them for weeks or months now already.
3. The gem-gold ratio means it will take much longer for the newer picks to become profitable.
4. Shiny new model.

Take your pick.

1. Doesn't apply if I bought the pick for 1000
2. Since when does the 'power' of gem store items take in consideration the time others have had to play the game? Red herring.
3. Quite the contrary. If both were bought at 1000 gems - the new pick will be amortised a lot quicker, obviously.
4. I have no quarrel with shiny new models, just don't give them additional attributes older models haven't had.

#29 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:45 PM

View PostIllein, on 29 January 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

1. Doesn't apply if I bought the pick for 1000
2. Since when does the 'power' of gem store items take in consideration the time others have had to play the game? Red herring.
3. Quite the contrary. If both were bought at 1000 gems - the new pick will be amortised a lot quicker, obviously.
4. I have no quarrel with shiny new models, just don't give them additional attributes older models haven't had.

It doesn't take the time others have had to play the game into account: it takes your time into account. If you bought the pick 3 weeks ago, then you've had the pick 3 weeks longer than you would have had the pick had you bought it yesterday. This extra time also allowed you to start paying off the pick.
The old picks still do exactly what they were advertised that they will always do. Not only that, but, as far as I know, there was never any promise that they will never not do anything different: for instance, we know that A.Net was planning on raising the level cap and they most likely will introduce better gear. So, if we get better gear and new mats (new mats are the easiest way to time gate this new content), which potentially demand a better pick, are we going to bitch then also?
That combined with the fact that, most likely, the majority of purchases were made when picks were not only still 800 gems but also the gem-gold rate was lower, would mean that we are dealing with an INSANELY small number of people that got "screwed over". Drop a line to Support.

Lastly, and I say this as a biased consumer: anyone (or better yet, the MASSIVE majority of players) that's bought these tools to bypass gold sinks is a freaking moron. Simple math has shown that basically no-one will be able to gather enough mats to pay for these tools. If a person is interested in making the most out of the game, then you are not buying infinite tools: either 2 days ago or yesterday.



As I said, I think the cash shop is problematic and I think this item is problematic and it's down to the fact that A.Net is selling gold. But if you didn't think that the cash shop was problematic two days ago, then I don't see why you'd think the cash shop is problematic today. This item fits A.Net description of "convenience" perfectly.  And if you accepted that definition a year, a month or two days ago then nothing has changed with this pick.

Edited by Baron von Scrufflebutt, 29 January 2014 - 01:03 PM.


#30 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:56 PM

View Postnerfandderf, on 29 January 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

For now - who is to say new legendaries wont require sprockets?
and when there is a run on sprockets and they are worth a gold each what then?
or new sickles will provide X2 amount of material for a small fee of 1200 gems - u buy?
the next sickle after that will provide 3x the amount for 1500 gems - you buy? goto keep up u know!

same thing. People seem hung up on sprockets.

We cannot assess situations that have not arisen. I respect and support reasonable suspicion but this does not fall under that category. Feel free to gloat if the slope tilts in your favor.




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