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What would the ideal level cap be in your opinion?


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#1 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 12:24 PM

The criteria for a natural level after 10 is expressed; you gain one stat point, some statistical points, and one trait point each level with no special rules. You can answer the question in three ways (spoonfeed):

1. By how many trait points you want.

2. How high the stat points raise as a base ( presume precision has no special rules ) and a level beyond 80 increases your stats by 1% per level ).

3. Aesthetic value.

[ Example ]

My perfect maximum level would be 100 as I would want the extra twenty trait points.

#2 Robsy128

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 12:41 PM

... what?

I'll just stick with 80... maybe push it to 85/90/100 but that would be the absolute maximum. I can't really see any need in raising it more to be honest.

#3 Krazzar

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:17 PM

If they add more content on the scale of an expansion pack they will probably increase the level cap because it's a simple gating mechanism that affords flexibility to both the players and the developers.  For players they can do a variety of activities on their own time instead of one or two things (unlike the living story).  For developers they have quite a few ways to balance and adjust the content.

If they add more traits and trait lines they can keep everyone from being able to max everything.  With new areas they can increase the stats required to keep that form of progression going.  It's all about ratios, they can keep adding without changing the overall balance of power too much, in theory.

What should be the level cap? It can go on forever as long as there is a reason for additional levels. If the levels are backed by content it isn't a problem, if it's levels for the sake of levels it's an issue. That's the difference between feeling like the release of the game all over (the excitement and exploration) and a grind. Ultimately I don't want to ever feel like levels are in the way, that I can do pretty much whatever I want while exploring the game. They did a pretty good job with the release of GW2, after discovering some things leveling became very efficient.

Edited by Krazzar, 30 January 2014 - 05:10 PM.


#4 Konzacelt

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:22 PM

Zero.  My ideal level cap would be zero.

#5 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:22 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 30 January 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Zero.  My ideal level cap would be zero.
Wrong game friend. :(

#6 Krazzar

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:40 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 30 January 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Wrong game friend. :(

Wrong genre, wrong era, wrong playerbase.

#7 Konzacelt

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:00 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 30 January 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

Wrong genre, wrong era, wrong playerbase.

^  That's the right response lol.  Especially the middle one...I really want to call this new generation of gamers the "Shiny" generation.  Everyone wants the prettiest gear and the coolest titles. :unsure:

#8 Feathermoore

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:03 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 30 January 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

^  That's the right response lol.  Especially the middle one...I really want to call this new generation of gamers the "Shiny" generation.  Everyone wants the prettiest gear and the coolest titles. :unsure:

"Back in my day I used to pull out my Crystaline Greataxe of Mirthful Smiting and all of the tavern NPCs would bow down to me in awe. People used to PM me hourly offering different amounts to try and buy it off me. One day, I merched it and posted a video on youtube to see the tears."

I wouldn't want the level cap to move. Any further character advancement should be entirely horizontal at this point.

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#9 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:03 PM

I don't know; indie gaming has taken a real spark to creating games with hard content. To be honest try the land of Wraeclast; Path of Exile is not an "easy" game in the generic sense. If you're hardcore it might be though.

#10 StormDragonZ

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:24 PM

Infinite. You should never allow a cap. If you put in the time and effort, you'll be practically unstoppable. Who doesn't want to be the unmovable object or the unstoppable force?

#11 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:31 PM

Limitation introduces strategy though. To be totally fair most of us are about level 200 though; we just no longer gain stats or trait points.

#12 MisterB

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:34 PM

Level 30 using current experience gain rates. World zones could increase in increments of 5 after the starter zones, and still end up with more max level zones. Level 30-80 is a meaningless grind in this game using transitory wasted gear, incomplete character builds, unnecessary crafting and resource tiers, etc. The game has nothing more to teach the player after level 30, and it just wastes the player's time, especially on every character after the first. Skill point requirements and trait requirements could be adjusted. Trait points are essentially only useful in increments of 5 using the current system.

Edited by MisterB, 30 January 2014 - 07:36 PM.


#13 Satenia

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:45 PM

Completely agree with you, MisterB :)

#14 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:48 PM

View PostMisterB, on 30 January 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

Level 30 using current experience gain rates. World zones could increase in increments of 5 after the starter zones, and still end up with more max level zones. Level 30-80 is a meaningless grind in this game using transitory wasted gear, incomplete character builds, unnecessary crafting and resource tiers, etc. The game has nothing more to teach the player after level 30, and it just wastes the player's time, especially on every character after the first. Skill point requirements and trait requirements could be adjusted. Trait points are essentially only useful in increments of 5 using the current system.

You'd have to severely adjust gold-gain in order to produce this however thus ruining the economic side of the game altogether.

#15 Konzacelt

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:54 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 30 January 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

"Back in my day I used to pull out my Crystaline Greataxe of Mirthful Smiting and all of the tavern NPCs would bow down to me in awe. People used to PM me hourly offering different amounts to try and buy it off me. One day, I merched it and posted a video on youtube to see the tears."

Lol.  Touche kind sir, touche!

#16 MisterB

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:00 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 30 January 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

You'd have to severely adjust gold-gain in order to produce this however thus ruining the economic side of the game altogether.
The topic of this thread is the opinion of an ideal level cap. It is self evident that many interdependent mechanics would need adjustment with a fundamental change such as this. An exhaustive list of corollary adjustments is the developer's job, not ours.

Gold acquisition rate is yet another lovely time sink in this game. Ideally, I would also adjust that, but... the gem shop exists.

In short, my ideal version of GW2 will never exist. Or, it is called "Guild Wars."

Edited by MisterB, 30 January 2014 - 08:19 PM.


#17 Andemius

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:10 PM

Either 80 as it is, or 20 (a la GW1 style). Lower cap = less grindy levelling, more actually doing things.

If I want to level through personal story I ought not to be forced to abandon it and muddle round exploring for a bit before I'm allowed to come back and progress.

#18 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:29 PM

View PostMisterB, on 30 January 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

The topic of this thread is the opinion of an ideal level cap. It is self evident that many interdependent mechanics would need adjustment with a fundamental change such as this. An exhaustive list of corollary adjustments is the developer's job, not ours.

Gold acquisition rate is yet another lovely time sink in this game. Ideally, I would also adjust that, but... the gem shop exists.

In short, my ideal version of GW2 will never exist. Or, it is called "Guild Wars."

Well that's no fun. Aren't GW1 servers still up? Get on that pony!

#19 BLONDE WENCH

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:34 PM

160th Level would be max trait points, so half of that, Level 80, is ideal.  As far as the Personal Story, I'd like to see it as an extension of the Heart of the Mists, where all chapters are 80th Level content.  Balancing would be a lot easier, & we might even be able to use PvP gear.

Edited by BLONDE WENCH, 30 January 2014 - 08:35 PM.


#20 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:36 PM

View PostAndemius, on 30 January 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

Either 80 as it is, or 20 (a la GW1 style). Lower cap = less grindy levelling, more actually doing things.

If I want to level through personal story I ought not to be forced to abandon it and muddle round exploring for a bit before I'm allowed to come back and progress.
Agreed.

Low Level Caps actually are generally detrimental to gameplay. For some reason I think this forum has a severe case of Nostalgia and has forgotten all the "bad" that came with that model, and those models today; generally speaking reaching max lvl at a lower lvl suggests some form of externalized leveling ( you know them as learned skills in GW1 where you did quests to get access, or the Hero Point System for exclusive skills, and then you have to level the skills themselves, ad infinitum for all games of this type ) that may or may not be congruent with your wishes and intents.

It's just usually a bad idea and more or less a forced march system just like "frozen skill-trees". People like that kind of thing though.

#21 El Duderino

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:43 PM

If you look at the philosophy behind the game, they wanted to basically make a game with no levels. They failed at being able to make levels scale upwards and threw that out the window. Instead, they stuck with levels scaling down.

Why not just get rid of them altogether? That is the whole point of trying to make it all scale, right?

Of course, that also goes against their idea that getting to max level of 20 and never being able to go higher was boring. So, the other philosophy is, make it whatever you want - it is only going to go up later!

#22 MisterB

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:55 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 30 January 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

If you look at the philosophy behind the game, they wanted to basically make a game with no levels. They failed at being able to make levels scale upwards and threw that out the window. Instead, they stuck with levels scaling down.
If I recall correctly, they did not fail at dynamic level scaling in both directions, but intentionally restricted upward scaling. Examples of upward level scaling could be seen as early as the Lost Shores. It was a design decision that results in a time sink.

#23 Konzacelt

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:57 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 30 January 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

Why not just get rid of them altogether? That is the whole point of trying to make it all scale, right?

Silly man, you wouldn't be able to sell all those leveling boosters then.  Nor would you have an insane amount of gear tiers.  Nor gathering gates.  Nor classical progression for that matter.  Lol, what a silly notion you have!

Oh my god...the personal story would be all over the place!!  I'd kill Zhaitan before joining an order!  I'd step foot in Orr before seeing Queensdale.  Trahearne would take the place of my street-rat friend and I'd have to sacrifice him instead!!  Chaos! Madness!!

Wait...Trahearne dead...yeah it's a good idea. :lol:

#24 MazingerZ

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 09:12 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 30 January 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

I wouldn't want the level cap to move. Any further character advancement should be entirely horizontal at this point.

You and I both know that's not the case.  They would have just tweaked power scaling and reduced flat percentages on 'Zerker if that was the case.  Ferocity is making sure crit-damage degrades as you out-level all the Ascended gear you farmed up.  It's exactly how Blizzard did it for TBC, because every rogue/hunter who couldn't get Drake Fang Talisman was doing Naxxrammas 40 was still using Blackhand's Breadth because it was 1% crit increase and nothing else rivaled it.  For reference, that was an item you got when you turned 60 and completing the top-tier dungeon.  It was still viable when doing the final raid in Vanilla.

Edited by MazingerZ, 30 January 2014 - 09:20 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#25 BLONDE WENCH

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 09:33 PM

Lots of WoW references, but I think you're right on the money with your prediction.

Edited by BLONDE WENCH, 30 January 2014 - 09:53 PM.


#26 Feathermoore

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 09:34 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 30 January 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

You and I both know that's not the case.  They would have just tweaked power scaling and reduced flat percentages on 'Zerker if that was the case.  Ferocity is making sure crit-damage degrades as you out-level all the Ascended gear you farmed up.  It's exactly how Blizzard did it for TBC, because every rogue/hunter who couldn't get Drake Fang Talisman was doing Naxxrammas 40 was still using Blackhand's Breadth because it was 1% crit increase and nothing else rivaled it.  For reference, that was an item you got when you turned 60 and completing the top-tier dungeon.  It was still viable when doing the final raid in Vanilla.

Hey, it asked for ideal cap in my opinion. Not what I thought was going to happen.

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#27 RandolfRa

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 09:48 PM

Definitely not more than 80. I don't care for leveling and I hate grinding, but I think say Guild Wars factions had it pretty well: once you leave the noob island you are max level and have full access to skill points.

View PostMazingerZ, on 30 January 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

You and I both know that's not the case.  They would have just tweaked power scaling and reduced flat percentages on 'Zerker if that was the case.  Ferocity is making sure crit-damage degrades as you out-level all the Ascended gear you farmed up.  It's exactly how Blizzard did it for TBC, because every rogue/hunter who couldn't get Drake Fang Talisman was doing Naxxrammas 40 was still using Blackhand's Breadth because it was 1% crit increase and nothing else rivaled it.  For reference, that was an item you got when you turned 60 and completing the top-tier dungeon.  It was still viable when doing the final raid in Vanilla.
This makes sense. Nice avatar by the way.

#28 BLONDE WENCH

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 09:53 PM

I agree; getting to level 20 was enjoyable in Factions.

#29 Kamatsu

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 10:23 PM

Well, there's only 2 real options IMO..

1) 9,001 <--- hey, it's over 9,000!!

2) 42 <-- the answer to everything.

:P

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#30 MazingerZ

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 10:46 PM

View PostBLONDE WENCH, on 30 January 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

Lots of WoW references, but I think you're right on the money with your prediction.

For as much guff as people give WoW, its managed to last this long and still go strong with multiple raises in the level cap.  Blizzard's only regret is the stat inflation that results in ridiculous numbers and values, but was necessary to retire the final raiding tier of each expansion and add weight to the gear introduced in the level cap increase.  ArenaNet's already discussed the level cap increase as a possibility, and they're going to have to figure out how to extend the player experience for all those who got Ascended, which means making level 80 Ascended degrade.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
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