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#1 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:15 AM

So I asked a bit about leveling and read a bit about leveling in various places and the word "grind" comes up. I can understand grind in relation to repetition; once you play a game you've played that game and unless it's specifically rogue-like etc. where it's completely randomly generated you're going to get bored of it after a while.

What I want to ask is "Did you grind on your first character?"

I can say with great satisfaction that I did not grind on my first character. I also didn't grind on my second; the gameplay was smooth throughout because I chose different options, different story, and did not aim to make the game an exercise in efficiency for once.

So what made the game "grindy" for you? I admit that farming and therefore crafting could be grindy but other than that what else is there that made it as such. I would like to avoid talking about the "Trains" since those are player choice and not in-game expected components and also not as efficient in leveling despite there being a rotation; great for farming though.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 31 January 2014 - 03:16 AM.


#2 Jentari

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:37 AM

Obtaining crafting materials for ascended gear.  Obtaining materials and stuff needed for legandaries.  I don't play the market so obtaining money is a big one.

#3 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:45 AM

View PostJentari, on 31 January 2014 - 03:37 AM, said:

Obtaining crafting materials for ascended gear.  Obtaining materials and stuff needed for legandaries.  I don't play the market so obtaining money is a big one.
I figured it would be crafting and not leveling.

#4 Bryant Again

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:19 AM

My first character was a War who only made it as far as 60. I wasn't satisfied with the experience so I 'reset', deleted her, and starting leveling through areas at a slower pace. It was alright.

The most fun I had with the game was leveling my Guardian. Talking to most of the NPCs (at least all the heart givers), seeing what they had to say, seeing how their quests related to the DEs, it was honestly pretty immersive and the strongest part of GW2's PvE. It's just far from replayable. The homogenized class design doesn't help.

Edited by Bryant Again, 31 January 2014 - 04:37 AM.


#5 Konzacelt

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:28 AM

Are you collecting consumer data for ANet?

#6 rukia

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:02 AM

Grinding for crafting mats was one of the first things I had to do to get my leatherwork and weaponsmith up, the drop rates were ludicrous. Probably still are, but seeing as my thief is my only 80 I haven't needed those mats in ages.

2nd thing I grinded on was due to me actually believing this game would be like GW1 where exotics would come easy. Boy was I surprised.. my first set came from crafting and after I realized that was a waste compared to just getting them off TP my 2nd set was from there.

3rd thing I grind was dungeons for the set appearance which were and still are all terrible looking on female human imo so 4th would be cultural armor.

I did all this quickly after I started playing on release because I wanted to look good and have the best gear so I didn't have to worry about stats anymore. Then ascended came and that's where my grinding and playtime came to a halt after ANet completely disregarded all the negative feedback that came with it on the official forum thread.

/screwthem

GW2 is nonstop grind in my eyes, can't even fathom rolling an alt.

#7 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 08:22 AM

Yes, I did grind.
The reason why I was forced to grind is because of the dynamic nature of the core GW2 content: the game does not have sufficient on-demand content to level organically, so if you luck out of dynamic content (which I did), you need to resort to killing rats to gain the needed XP.

#8 SZSSZS

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 08:51 AM

On either of my first two characters, pushing to level 80 didn't really require any grind. Between WvW, different races/professions, I found it quite enjoyable.

As for crafting, I haven't bothered to aim for ascended weapons/armor on any more than my main. I've never really spent gold on anything but Ascended crafting, so it wasn't really a grind for me, only left me broke =). Admittedly collecting orichalcum and ancient wood was a bit tedious, but short lived.

Where the feeling of grind first hit home was leveling up my third and fourth characters. I just couldn't bear doing any more hearts that I had already done twice over. At that point in the game, most of my time was spent playing sPvP, so it was frustrating not being able to use my Guardian or Warrior in dungeons, without pouring hours into PvE.

With the update to pvp rewards I bought dozens of tomes of knowledge with glory, so that was a great change. Unless a new continent is added, I'll probably always rely on tomes for leveling.

Definitely makes me miss GW1's 20 levels and easy to obtain max stat gear.

Edited by SZSSZS, 31 January 2014 - 08:53 AM.


#9 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 10:45 AM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 31 January 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Yes, I did grind.
The reason why I was forced to grind is because of the dynamic nature of the core GW2 content: the game does not have sufficient on-demand content to level organically, so if you luck out of dynamic content (which I did), you need to resort to killing rats to gain the needed XP.

No.

There are numerous zones at the same level, so if you have completed all the hearts at your level in one zone and you don't get any DEs, you can go explore another zone. If you do this there is a surplus of XP-giving content for any particular level.

#10 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 11:03 AM

View PostBeyond Freedom, on 31 January 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

No.

There are numerous zones at the same level, so if you have completed all the hearts at your level in one zone and you don't get any DEs, you can go explore another zone. If you do this there is a surplus of XP-giving content for any particular level.

The problem is that there's no in-game reason why a norn would go explore Metrica halfway though exploring Wayfarer's. You go there because you don't have enough XP to continue playing in your map. I wasn't saying you can't do that, on the contrary, I did that. But if the game forces me to go to a second map, just to gain enough XP to be able to continue playing my primary map, then that's grind.

Edited by Baron von Scrufflebutt, 31 January 2014 - 12:25 PM.


#11 Desild

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 11:18 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 31 January 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

Are you collecting consumer data for ANet?

I keep asking the exact same question. He keeps tossing context-based threads on Guru with no other intention than gauge our response, sometimes participating very little himself. It's unnerving really.

Regardless, no, I didn't grind my first character. My first character, aptly named Desild Frostmaim,  was how I experimented the game to it's fullest. Rolled on launch day. From a profit point of view though, I'm creating characters nowadays solely to farm low level mats, since loot scales and makes my gathering of Linen and Wool seriously complicated.

Edited by Desild, 31 January 2014 - 11:37 AM.


#12 Feathermoore

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:59 PM

I hit a grind wall on my second character actually. My first character was a human ele and I blasted through content eating it up. However, due to the way I play I would complete more zones that required to level in order to explore. Then when I come along with my second character, by the time I hit level 30 I was stuck doing content I had already done and there was no feeing of fun. So I used crafting to jump up to 65/70 and was able to complete the rest of the level without grind since my main hadn't really done much in Orr.

Personally, as an exploring driven player, the vistas and things needed to complete maps were grind to me, even on my first character. This was most notable in cities where I would groan when I looked at the map and had to run around finding nothing interesting just to click on some floating maps.

Then again, that 40-70 level range still felt weird on my first character. What is the point of it? You don't learn anything, you don't really gain anything. It just spreads out your trait acquisition over a long period of time. In the first 10 levels your growth is massive. 10-30 it is mediocre and after 30 you realy just grow at a snail's pace. The experience curve may be flat, but the "effective experience" curve is exactly the same as in other MMOs. If that makes sense.

Edited by Feathermoore, 31 January 2014 - 02:23 PM.

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#13 turbo234

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:11 PM

It started to be "grindy" for me around the level 50ish mark. At that point it was just finish this heart, do that vista, but it wasn't that bad yet because each area was different and it kept me entertained because it was a little more than simply kill 10 boars. Now, the real issue laid after this. A second character. Not enjoyable in the least. I think a lot of this is because of a lack of a good story line. It doesn't feel like a story, it just feels like more emphasized quests. I hate to compare to guild wars 1 but...I must have created dozens of characters over time and I never got bored doing so. It also doesn't help that there isn't much to do after 80. People will try to argue that there is tons to do, but you know well enough that it's not true. Limited amount of dungeons and after map completion there really isn't much.

#14 Dusty Friday

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:39 PM

There isn't anything grindy on my end. Honestly, this game has the best leveling experience I've ever seen. It has been a pleasure to progress with all of my toons as there are just so many ways to level! My first toon was leveled 'properly', exploring all areas on 100% and completing all parts of the story and dungeons. My second and third toons were a mixture of questing, personal story and profession leveling (1 profession = 10 levels, or more with xp boosters). My fourth, which I am currently leveling, I try to level with random exploration and PvP - buying Tomes of Knowledge with glory. And my fifth.. is still sitting on level 20, but I might try to level it solely with WvWvW experience gains.

Seriously guys, which other game offers this much freedom when it comes to how you can level your toon?

#15 El Duderino

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:05 PM

My first character, after level 40 felt like a giant grind.

On my attempts at second characters, I would be done with all checkpoints in an area and unable to move on because I wasn't a high enough level and would get slaughtered.

That experience definitely dampened my mood to keep playing. I felt as if I wasn't playing my main, everything was a chore. I don't tend to like chores.

#16 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:05 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 31 January 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

The problem is that there's no in-game reason why a norn would go explore Metrica halfway though exploring Wayfarer's. You go there because you don't have enough XP to continue playing in your map. I wasn't saying you can't do that, on the contrary, I did that. But if the game forces me to go to a second map, just to gain enough XP to be able to continue playing my primary map, then that's grind.

Nothing forced you to go to the second map. If you are somehow saying that it's not RP for you to go to the second map then you could find all sorts of RP reasons to stay on the map you're on, like finding someone to join up with and have an IC conversation, or achieve some stuff together. If you did that you'd probably find that some DEs spawned anyway while you were trying to find the person to RP with, they actually happen pretty frequently.

Or alternatively you could try to do some stuff that's too difficult for you, and heroically manage to survive! Or heroically die trying.

Or you could gather some resources locally and go and do some crafting.

Or you could just wait for 2 minutes for the next DE.

Honestly the fact that you are a norn doesn't mean that you shouldn't go exploring Metrica because you are a heroic adventurer and going exploring far off places is what you do.

Or maybe what you are really saying is that you want to roleplay a couch potato, and you have a robot to stuff cheezy puffs in your mouth but you're complaining that to turn this robot on you have to leave the sofa - why can't ANet drop a remote control for the robot into your lap really cause leaving the sofa could give you cooties.

#17 Brandon the Don

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:15 PM

After I got my 4th character to level 80 I felt like it was a grind to level alts...

And that is imho it... You can grind in the game, but you can also take for granted that you cannot get everything in a said period of time ('cause honestly, there is more to life than gaming), and neither do I feel as if the game punishes me for it...
... Which might also be because there is not much content to miss out on if you did not get specific gear in a said amount of time, but whatever...
I got enough skill to get myself geared in a "reasonable" amount of time, usually not taking up more than playing an hour per day to get my desired artifacts within a week... Do take in mind that I did not do stuff like Ascended Crafting yet, and only just finished a legendary after a year of playing...

Anyway, there are people who feel like they have not, or did grind... Some people blame the game, some people themselves...

#18 Gecko

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:17 PM

No, it does not feel grindy to me. I simply log in and play, doing whatever I feel like on any of my characters, usually having a great time, and if I start to get bored I stop. That is a good fix for any irritation on anything in life, mind you.

#19 Desild

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:33 PM

Remember when to fully explore a map you had to kill every single last living thing in the area? In Hard Mode no less!

Those were the good days.

Edited by Desild, 31 January 2014 - 03:34 PM.


#20 MazingerZ

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:06 PM

I hit the grind at level 50 on my first character.  The Personal Story had lost its punch and I'd stopped reading what the hearts were asking me to do.  If just interacted with stuff to raise it and had hardly any context to why I was doing it or for whom.  I honestly had stopped seeing a lot of people and at that point had gathered so many cooking materials that once I hit 60 and couldn't find anyone out in the world (thanks, FOTM), I just burned up to 80 because Orr was where all the stuff was at the time.

I was taking my time and I don't think I was level 80 when Lost Shores hit, so by that time m ost people were 'done' with the game.  Everything had moved to FOTM and there was no one in Orr because Orr wasn't where you got Ascended at the time.

Edited by MazingerZ, 31 January 2014 - 04:06 PM.

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#21 Krazzar

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:41 PM

I have 8 level 80 characters, one for each profession, a level 72 charr warrior, and a level 42 asura thief.

My first character was a warrior and I leveled him completely through map completion and exploration. I tried to rush through things to get to see all the zones so I could tell which zones I wanted to spend more time in, but it turned out that was the slow way to level.  It took me about 80 hours in total and did not feel like a grind, but I wanted to hurry up and see everything. I only had ~75% map completion so I still had plenty to see on other characters. I was over-leveled for most of the zones.

The next few characters (necro, ranger, guardian, thief, ele, engineer) I got smart and figured out better ways to level.  First, if you fully explore all the cities you'll start off at level 8, complete a starter zone and you'll be at least at 15, depending on how many events you do and stacking events and hearts together.  Then you have a few story missions you can do easily.  Mix story, map completion, and crafting and characters level very quickly. Some characters were just more fun to explore with, I hit 85% map completion with my engineer without realizing it.  For my ele and thief I wanted to speed things along so I threw more crafting in there to skip from ~60 to 80. I hated playing mesmer so I leveled from 30 to 80 with crafting only with that character.

Then I got a few of those scrolls that start you off at level 20 so I created a charr warrior because I always wanted one and a few other characters I dabbled with but weren't too connected to and ended up with the level 42 asura thief I don't ever play.  I liked playing the charr warrior in a different way than I played my original warrior because thematically it made sense so it was like a totally different class to me. I haven't rushed or felt a reason to rush to level the remaining two characters I have, I just jump around zones and see some stuff and then go somewhere else.  Their crafting and map completion is very low.

So the only character I felt would be a grind was the mesmer because I didn't like playing that profession, so I opted to skip the grind altogether and craft him to 80.  If any one area felt like a grind I'd just do something else or switch to a different character.  Now if it starts feeling like a grind I just stop playing.

Edited by Krazzar, 31 January 2014 - 05:26 PM.


#22 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:17 PM

View PostBeyond Freedom, on 31 January 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

Nothing forced you to go to the second map. If you are somehow saying that it's not RP for you to go to the second map then you could find all sorts of RP reasons to stay on the map you're on, like finding someone to join up with and have an IC conversation, or achieve some stuff together. If you did that you'd probably find that some DEs spawned anyway while you were trying to find the person to RP with, they actually happen pretty frequently.

Or alternatively you could try to do some stuff that's too difficult for you, and heroically manage to survive! Or heroically die trying.

Or you could gather some resources locally and go and do some crafting.

Or you could just wait for 2 minutes for the next DE.

Honestly the fact that you are a norn doesn't mean that you shouldn't go exploring Metrica because you are a heroic adventurer and going exploring far off places is what you do.

Or maybe what you are really saying is that you want to roleplay a couch potato, and you have a robot to stuff cheezy puffs in your mouth but you're complaining that to turn this robot on you have to leave the sofa - why can't ANet drop a remote control for the robot into your lap really cause leaving the sofa could give you cooties.

Map exploration (vistas, POIs, hearts, ...) grants you around 3 levels worth of XP. In a zone that spans 10 levels.  Add gathering to that and you still have to fill around 5 levels through dynamic content. (Let's disregard the fact that when you enter a map, the content on the other side of the map will be unavailable to you: if you are lvl 30 starting a map, then the lvl 40 heart/vista/waypoint still counts towards those 3 levels of on-demand content you can get in that area, but you'll first need to get at least some 5 levels worth of XP before you can even do it.) If the map is empty or if you are not familiar with the event timers, it can be a pain in the ass finding 5 levels worth of DEs for every 10 levels.

As for visiting a secondary area: as I said, if you luck out of events, then your are basically stuck with visiting a second map. Having the option to do so is absolutely amazing. What is not amazing is that, if you luck out of events and want to explore a primary map, you are forced to visit a secondary map, just so that you can gain enough XP to be able to go back to your primary map and finish exploring it. That's textbook grind: you are doing content that you don't want to be doing just so that you are allowed to do the content that you want to do. And to make it worse, the game absolutely fails at even pretending to create a in-game connection between those maps: the only connection is your level number.

#23 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:56 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 31 January 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

Map exploration (vistas, POIs, hearts, ...) grants you around 3 levels worth of XP. In a zone that spans 10 levels.  Add gathering to that and you still have to fill around 5 levels through dynamic content. (Let's disregard the fact that when you enter a map, the content on the other side of the map will be unavailable to you: if you are lvl 30 starting a map, then the lvl 40 heart/vista/waypoint still counts towards those 3 levels of on-demand content you can get in that area, but you'll first need to get at least some 5 levels worth of XP before you can even do it.) If the map is empty or if you are not familiar with the event timers, it can be a pain in the ass finding 5 levels worth of DEs for every 10 levels.

As for visiting a secondary area: as I said, if you luck out of events, then your are basically stuck with visiting a second map. Having the option to do so is absolutely amazing. What is not amazing is that, if you luck out of events and want to explore a primary map, you are forced to visit a secondary map, just so that you can gain enough XP to be able to go back to your primary map and finish exploring it. That's textbook grind: you are doing content that you don't want to be doing just so that you are allowed to do the content that you want to do. And to make it worse, the game absolutely fails at even pretending to create a in-game connection between those maps: the only connection is your level number.

According to this: http://wiki.guildwar...wiki/Experience

If map completion is 50% of the 10 lvl span then about 49 events covers the other 50% if you are within areas that are of level.

At worst I believe the minimum you can acquire for any DE is something about 5% so 20 DEs even below level will produce a level.

So did you do a lot of DE or just complete maps?

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 31 January 2014 - 05:56 PM.


#24 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 06:14 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 31 January 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

According to this: http://wiki.guildwar...wiki/Experience

If map completion is 50% of the 10 lvl span then about 49 events covers the other 50% if you are within areas that are of level.

At worst I believe the minimum you can acquire for any DE is something about 5% so 20 DEs even below level will produce a level.

So did you do a lot of DE or just complete maps?

As I said, the problem with levelling isn't if you are running across events: events are the game, so if you are avoiding them, there's very little point to playing the game. The problem appears when you aren't coming across them: as I said, events are the game, so without them, you're left with not much of a game.

#25 El Duderino

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 06:34 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 31 January 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

As I said, the problem with levelling isn't if you are running across events: events are the game, so if you are avoiding them, there's very little point to playing the game. The problem appears when you aren't coming across them: as I said, events are the game, so without them, you're left with not much of a game.

I have experienced this first hand and it is terrible. There is nothing worse than trying to play a game where you complete all of the "checkpoint" content and cannot continue on because you didn't level enough.

#26 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 06:35 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 31 January 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

As I said, the problem with levelling isn't if you are running across events: events are the game, so if you are avoiding them, there's very little point to playing the game. The problem appears when you aren't coming across them: as I said, events are the game, so without them, you're left with not much of a game.
Okay, I can agree withat, esp. on the first time through. On the second time I did hit a lot of events I never knew existed and I can definitely see where'd be frustrating.

#27 HELLruler

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 07:37 PM

When I started playing (Jan 2013), I could level up doing what I wanted at the moment. Got a lot of levels running dungeons with PUGs (non 80s were allowed that time, and most people was really friendly), doing tasks (heart quests), crafting a bit or doing the personal story (really nice exp)

I think that if I'd bought this game some months later, I would've stopped playing without getting my first toon to lvl 80. Low level areas are full of "trains" - so zero cooperation with other events than bosses -, and dungeons are "blocked" for non-80s if you don't have friends to play with :/

#28 Karuro

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 07:47 PM

I took it easy on my first char.
Started doing map completions (in map level order) and turned 80 in Blazeridge Steppes.
My 2nd 80 through WvW and the third mainly through events.

It also took me about a year before I took my first step on Orr.
And that only to grab a back piece, I still haven't done anything else there.
Will do so once my Personal Story gets there, which as you can imagine, I'm doing at a snails pace.

The grindy parts for me are just the mat/token collecting and the do x "100"+ times achievements.
Especially annoying when you have to fight with other players for them, like with holograms, baskets etc.

Edited by Karuro, 31 January 2014 - 07:50 PM.


#29 Krazzar

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 07:55 PM

To everyone in the thread:  Which areas of the game should be expanded to avoid grind?

For me I would say more events and random or triggerable exploration events (caves opening, secret passages, ect) would help.  I think they should create a trade network as well, which would greatly expand the curent short "protect the caravan" events, potentially make them travel between zones and have risk/return considerations to make it profitable.  Then they can bring back a Nicholas the Traveler type character.  Adding in more activities that were originally designed but abandoned could help as well.  Basically make the world more alive and feel more populated.

Edited by Krazzar, 31 January 2014 - 07:56 PM.


#30 Fernling306

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 08:27 PM

I feel like my first level 80 was the only one I grinded to level. With each 80 after that, I just crafted to 80.




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