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Dev for a Day: Condition Damage


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#1 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 01:53 PM

The purpose of this thread is to discuss Condition Damage in the game whether you think it's fine, is completely broken, or could just be tweaked to be more useful.

My thoughts:

Instead of a global cap of 25 set and individual cap of 18 for stacking conditions so that CD builds can all work in congruence. My reasoning is that while lowering the amount of real damage that can be done it allows for a more versatile presence from all characters and does not create competition in PvE for condition damage. This change is not instituted in PvP in the Mists but everywhere else it stands.

Increase the base coefficient of bleeding to 7% to help compensate for the loss of damage through fewer stacks. Also allows for more synergy between base attacks and their integrated bleeding making for a more seamless damage scheme and drawing away from a "one-or-the-other" feel.

Uncap vulnerability but only allow 12 from any given source. This does not apply to PvP and only to PvE / WvW, my reasoning is that this allows for more teamwork based combat in scenarios where it is sensible while preventing people from just outright conrtollng the battlefield. The uncapped nature of this will increase the push towards more of a universal anti-role system where only one source can contribute 12% while also keeping all sources viable.*

These are examples; there's more but for now let's just leave it at that.

*source: An independent entity ( such as a turret, pet, etc. ) or player counts as a source therefore engineers, rangers, etc. lose only one stack if they use their turrets/pets etc, could be reworked for skills that would produce more than this number of stacks. Sigils do not count towards this cap of 12 and can proc, traited vulnerability does count towards this cap of twelve and will not proc.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 03 February 2014 - 02:42 PM.


#2 FoxBat

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 02:36 PM

Individual tracking is ideal but there are technical issues with it atm. So instead I would change defiant to double armor, half condition duration, half HP. Stacking is not really an issue outside of bosses, this still wouldn't fully fix the issue but would make multiple condi sources less of an issue in dungeons.

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 03 February 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Uncap vulnerability but only allow 12 from any given source.

50-60% damage increase is really going to limit what a "good" dungeon team looks like.

#3 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 02:49 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 03 February 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Individual tracking is ideal but there are technical issues with it atm. So instead I would change defiant to double armor, half condition duration, half HP. Stacking is not really an issue outside of bosses, this still wouldn't fully fix the issue but would make multiple condi sources less of an issue in dungeons.



50-60% damage increase is really going to limit what a "good" dungeon team looks like.

On your first point they damage is already individually tracked. If 6 people used 4 stacks of bleed all of those stacks are attributed properly to the source that made them as damage towards the requirement threshold for credit whether one is 500/s and another 5/s,

On your second point I can't see many people directly changing their builds to stack vulnerability since might produces at 25 stacks a greater effect than doubling your damage with vulnerability would since might works in a manner with greater effectual intervals than vulnerability even under the new max. If anything it makes adds and pets more useful and diminishes the value of grenadiers and other builds that stack vulnerability in seconds.

#4 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 04:40 PM

There's no point to uncapping the conditions that don't deliver damage...  When enough people are attacking it, those conditions should in theory never wear down if the attacking group is consistent.  Not really worried about stacking vulnerability.

The problem comes from capped damage conditions, because you've a limited pool that's being split amongst every player bringing a condition with even Power players bringing conditions backed into their attacks.  You've limited a pool that requires gear dedication to Condition Damage to be effective, thereby limiting Power.

If you look at DoT based specs in WoW, they ease this.  First, you only  need one stat and that's spell power and that feeds both DoT and Direct Damage.  Secondly, DoTs can crit, thereby keeping in line with increasing levels of critical hit chance and critical damage from Direct Damage specs.  Third, DoT/condition removal is inherently expensive vs application.  You can remove whole stacks of Bleed if the RNG condition removal can hit it.

Bleeds are almost impossible to remove and other forms of DoT damage are split based on types, and therefore removal is limited to what's in the toolbox.  Shaman can only cleanse Curses (this moves to Magic for raid balance when you spec Healing), Paladins can remove only Poison and Disease.

With GW2, you can remove any conditions and there are plenty of people spamming condition removal for groups.  You negate a lot of damage with a button press that actually is easier to handle than burst direct damage.

Direct damage is superior in every way.  Instantaneous.  Ability to burst.  No limited debuff pool to share with other group members.  Speccing into improving its effectiveness leaves your direct damage attacks rather limp.

You sacrifice way too much to be primarily condition damage and even then its not necessarily the best spec.  Corruption Warlocks still have issues with most trash clearing because by the time they've effectively loaded a mob up, its dead.  Their DPS on trash clearing is the lowest.

First, I don't believe for a second that even if condition damage wasn't capped, the DPS output would be anywhere near that of Direct Damage 'Zerker.  They'll need to figure out how to bring that in line.

Secondly, they need to address the cap so that every damage condition applied has its own time to burn off.

Third, they need to counter-balance the best they can do with the first two points against the gimpedness of taking condition damage gear over power, when you've still got a lot of power moves.  One suggestion, off the top, would be to have condition damage work with moves that build off applied conditions.
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#5 Phenn

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 05:03 PM

Honestly, the more I've messed it hybridization on the Necro, the more I've come to realize a couple of things (similar to what MazingerZ's pointed out).

1. ConD needs to scale with a stat that also affects DD. Might does this wonderfully in a Hybrid build. I'd like to see something like Precision's relationship to Crit Chance with Power, only that it affects both the final "attack" stat and the ConD stat.

2. When you build Hybrid on the Necro (30/30) you get a wonderful spread of all the important stats. Additionally, the synergies are such within the trait lines that increasing ConD output directly increases DD output.

3. The loss of Crit Dmg, however, cannot be assuaged by adding ConD, given that you can't stack ConD, Power, Precision, AND Crit Dmg effectively. As such, the DPS falls behind because you need too many stats to make Power builds viable, and ConD has its own independent stat. (Again, we need Might as a stat.) The nerfs to Crit Dmg MAY have been able to fix it, but they won't be sweeping enough.

4. There is no point number four.

5. Finally, given the ease with which ConD can be removed, the wonderful thing about the Hybrid Necro is his voluminous amount of consistent, passively-applied ConD. Given the build I've been using, it can stack ConD faster than a mob (or an opponent) can remove it. However, given the meta-demanded increase in universal ConD removal, I see this as a band-aid and not a "fix."

#6 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 05:16 PM

View PostPhenn, on 03 February 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

5. Finally, given the ease with which ConD can be removed, the wonderful thing about the Hybrid Necro is his voluminous amount of consistent, passively-applied ConD. Given the build I've been using, it can stack ConD faster than a mob (or an opponent) can remove it. However, given the meta-demanded increase in universal ConD removal, I see this as a band-aid and not a "fix."

The game's lack of resource management beyond CDs is also an issue.  In WoW, 'locks and healers can counter-spam dots and cleanses to their heart's content, but that's costly mana-wise.  This is why a Corruption 'locks get a 'bomb' condition that causes direct damage and a stun if you dispell it, to counteract the removal of their primary source of DPS.

In GW2, you remove conditions, but its like pissing into the wind.  You either use it precisely when the condition quota is filled (remove 2, remove 3, remove Bleed) or you run it and run the risk of the condition you wanted to not be removed.  You might get lucky and rip off the intended condition, or you might get unlucky, at which point the time you spent waiting to use the condition was wasted.  There's no strategy to that until people run the numbers and decide based purely on statistics, which is the better option.  And suddenly its ArenaNet's job to decide how to make condition removal effective without gimping condition-damage builds.
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#7 Brandon the Don

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 05:21 PM

One of the most important changes, which has been discussed amongst players to death and of which many agree, is that they split on how conditions will work in PvP and PvE...

The simple fact that they made WvWvW extremely tied to PvE is one of the main reason why conditions face the problems in PvE... This goes all the way down to how builds are made for each aspect in the game, and as we all know, only makes things frustrating for players on all the levels of the game...
Conditions are overpowered in PvP, whilst at the same time they contribute too little in PvE - yet they use the same mechanic...

Though in all honesty, conditions should never do as much damage in PvE as direct damage does... It is simply unfair if a condition dealer is able to stand at a safer distance, whilst others have to take some  blows to the face... Which is kind of hard since you know, it works this way now and as you see, it does not work well...

#8 Konzacelt

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 05:50 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 February 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

In GW2, you remove conditions, but its like pissing into the wind.  You either use it precisely when the condition quota is filled (remove 2, remove 3, remove Bleed) or you run it and run the risk of the condition you wanted to not be removed.  You might get lucky and rip off the intended condition, or you might get unlucky, at which point the time you spent waiting to use the condition was wasted.  There's no strategy to that until people run the numbers and decide based purely on statistics, which is the better option.  And suddenly its ArenaNet's job to decide how to make condition removal effective without gimping condition-damage builds.

That's one thing I really hated.  It's the luck of the draw with condi removal, there's little in the way of strategic cleansing...you just cleanse.

#9 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 05:54 PM

1. Remove condition damage/duration stats and have condition scale with power.
2. Rework the skills so that condition damage is completely supplementary to direct damage, meaning that each skill does the majority of damage through direct damage.

#10 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 06:16 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 03 February 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

1. Remove condition damage/duration stats and have condition scale with power.

2. Rework the skills so that condition damage is completely supplementary to direct damage, meaning that each skill does the majority of damage through direct damage.

This would work for balancing the issue of condition utility, but it would disrupt their whole trait-line BS.  This is another example of ArenaNet's design limiting their flexibility here.  It's one of those things that would only be dropped and handled in severe overhaul and redesign of the trait system.  You're not going to get that in a feature-only patch for free.
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#11 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 07:12 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 February 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

This would work for balancing the issue of condition utility, but it would disrupt their whole trait-line BS.  This is another example of ArenaNet's design limiting their flexibility here.  It's one of those things that would only be dropped and handled in severe overhaul and redesign of the trait system.  You're not going to get that in a feature-only patch for free.

Aye, that ship has sailed.
Although, what really bugs me is that GW1 suffered from an insanely problematic passive meta, with conditions being in the forefront of it. And then we get GW2, where ACTIVE was one of the buzzwords, and now we are suffering from the exact same issue: just that the situation is even worse because how low the ceiling is.

Blah.

#12 Phenn

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:20 PM

Ultimately, it stems from the universal problem of GW2: making all classes capable of "every role." When everyone's special, no one is. Since every class has some sort of condition application, those conditions had to be generalized (imagine having six professions' worth of unique conditions). With generalized conditions came generalized conditions removal.

I'd be totally in favor of (for example) reworking the Necro so that 90% of its damage were DoTs. But those DoTs were powerful and unique to the class. That'd necessitate a hard counter to the Necro's DoTs. If you put it into every class, then the Necro would be gimped. If you gave it to only one class (the Guard for instance), then you're starting to specialize--exactly what ANet's sworn to never do.

A possible way around this (at least in my head) would be to make professions emphasize different stats to increase their DD DPS. Again, example being the Necro: if ConD was his primary stat (rather than power), and all of his direct-damage took place over a period of time (not cleanseable in the sense that instead of a single dagger strike doing 1000 dmg instantly, it does 1000 dmg over 5 seconds), then you get some interesting value in the ConD world. Additionally, this could transfer to PvE relatively well, making certain bosses susceptible to ConD-based damage, even if it's delivered in a DD manner. I could see this being worked into sub-professions relatively easily.

But then again, I've only mulled over it for a couple of hours.

#13 Epixors

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:27 PM

I'd add more skill specific conditions like Blinding Blade on a Guardian to Necromancers, Rangers and Engineers mostly.

#14 Phenn

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:37 PM

View PostEpixors, on 04 February 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

I'd add more skill specific conditions like Blinding Blade on a Guardian to Necromancers, Rangers and Engineers mostly.

Exactly. Drop the plethora of spammed ConD, and make it skill specific. Can't cleanse Binding Blades--you have to ride it out. If you're low on HP, you have to out-heal it. Which would then introduce the value of the Heal Power stat...

Makes too much sense. (EDIT: too much sense for ANet to implement it, that is.)

Edited by Phenn, 04 February 2014 - 04:37 PM.


#15 Simon1812

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:37 PM

hmmm personally, I think the problem with condition dmg is that , it fools players into thinking it is a form of dmg that parallels power. I think it should be a complement to power or maybe fueled by it?. similar to the relation between power and precision with critical dmg,a perfect love triangle. condition dmg needs the same thing.

other idea would be maybe condition dmg needs to be tied to precision, hear this. what if flurry (warrior's sword skill#1) applied bleed only in the event of a critical? hmm? what if all condition related skill right now worked like that? would it make conditional dmg too redundant? not as powerful? not has spammable? too ramdonized? u think u can just cut somebody anywhere and bleed then to dead? it takes precision! thought consider that somebody who focuses on condition build probably sacrifices a big deal of power and critical (dps) how does that sound? or the one before?

#16 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:38 PM

I think my key issue with condition damage is that it's just too hard to build damage no matter how you bank it. You have to choose between a duration and a damage ceiling which is unfair considering how with damage there is no such consideration ever to be made.

#17 lalangamena

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 07:34 AM

all written below derived from the 25 condition stack cap by the game mechanism.

1- cap individual condition cap on 10.
2- weapon attacks will grant only one stack of condition, utilities on high CD (>30 secs) no more than three.
auto attacks will give base 1 second of condition, each 10 sec CD will double the base duration, max base duration 10 secs.
10 sec CD will give 3 sec base duration, 20 sec CD will give 5 sec base duration 30 sec CD will give 10 sec base duration.  
3- increase by two the condition damage coefficient for conditions to compensate for the individual condition cap.

#18 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 08:29 AM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 03 February 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

1. Remove condition damage/duration stats and have condition scale with power.
2. Rework the skills so that condition damage is completely supplementary to direct damage, meaning that each skill does the majority of damage through direct damage.

I was playing my guardian the other day and realized that the guy is designed exactly in this fashion: you happily spam your auto-attack, while burning foes with Justice. The condition damage is completely supplementary to your direct damage.
And it works amazingly. The shittiest condition-damage class is the only class, that got condition damage right in this game.

Edited by Baron von Scrufflebutt, 09 February 2014 - 04:34 PM.


#19 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:14 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 09 February 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

I was playing my guardian the other day and realized that the guy is designed exactly in this fashion: you happily spam your auto-attack, while burning foes with Justice. The condition damage is completely supplementary to your direct damage.
And it works amazingly. The shittiest condition-damage class, is the only class that got condition damage right in this game.

I would disagree. Attacks that cause bleeding are more in-line with what you describe since it deals cumulative damage rewarding you for consistent pressure on a target. Justice however will burn whatever takes that 4th~5th hit( IIRC ) even if it's a completely new enemy. That's what I thought you meant.

Go figure, I guess you mean something completely different.

Mind you I don't know if you're using active or passive Justice.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 09 February 2014 - 04:15 PM.


#20 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:33 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 09 February 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

I would disagree. Attacks that cause bleeding are more in-line with what you describe since it deals cumulative damage rewarding you for consistent pressure on a target. Justice however will burn whatever takes that 4th~5th hit( IIRC ) even if it's a completely new enemy. That's what I thought you meant.

Go figure, I guess you mean something completely different.

Mind you I don't know if you're using active or passive Justice.

As I said, conditions should be a supplementary source of damage and conditions on a guardian function that way: your Justice (either passive or active) will simply help wear down the foe, while the bulk of your damage will be the result of your direct damage skills.

#21 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 09 February 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

As I said, conditions should be a supplementary source of damage and conditions on a guardian function that way: your Justice (either passive or active) will simply help wear down the foe, while the bulk of your damage will be the result of your direct damage skills.
So where you think Guardian does this best I think Warrior does with a sword, specifically with Flurry; hm. It all works out I suppose.

#22 ObscureThreat

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 05:13 PM

I think what they should do is tone down the dmg on current conditions and make them supplementary to DD (so the number of stacks become a non issue), but introduce class specific DOT skills that are based off power/precision. That way healing also becomes more important because, it would be the best counter to these DOT skills/builds.

#23 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 05:23 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 09 February 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

So where you think Guardian does this best I think Warrior does with a sword, specifically with Flurry; hm. It all works out I suppose.

The reason why I brought up the guardian was because I was playing the guardian, plus, if I am not mistaken, the guardian is the only class that can not spec successfully into conditions in PvP. And its that inability to create a full-on condition-based guy that should be the basis for balancing conditions.

#24 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 05:42 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 09 February 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

The reason why I brought up the guardian was because I was playing the guardian, plus, if I am not mistaken, the guardian is the only class that can not spec successfully into conditions in PvP. And its that inability to create a full-on condition-based guy that should be the basis for balancing conditions.
So how would this impact Necromancers?

#25 Konzacelt

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 06:28 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 09 February 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

So how would this impact Necromancers?

Power necro's, especially rotating in DS a lot, hit pretty hard.  I would say a class like Warrior gets more from his power and less from his conditions, and a necro gets less from his power and more from his condi's.  They both benefit more from high power/crit, it's just that the warrior hits harder while the necro's condi's hit harder.

#26 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 08:06 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 09 February 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

Power necro's, especially rotating in DS a lot, hit pretty hard.  I would say a class like Warrior gets more from his power and less from his conditions, and a necro gets less from his power and more from his condi's.  They both benefit more from high power/crit, it's just that the warrior hits harder while the necro's condi's hit harder.
That was the point of the question. So what happens to classes that do better with conditions? Are they just rewritten to be Warriors with robes?

#27 Konzacelt

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 08:28 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 09 February 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

That was the point of the question. So what happens to classes that do better with conditions? Are they just rewritten to be Warriors with robes?

The way GW2 is set-up, there's nothing that can be done.

#28 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 08:43 PM

Hm, you make it sounds like GW2 is just an FF14 that didn't get recalled.

#29 Konzacelt

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 09:04 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 09 February 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

Hm, you make it sounds like GW2 is just an FF14 that didn't get recalled.

You got me on that one, never played FF.

#30 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 10:00 PM

You should. It'll open your eyes ...




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