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How would you improve monster AI?


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#1 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 01:01 PM

What improvements would you like to see to monster behavior? Would you like them to be faster, to evade more regardless of type ( oozes for instance evade and block naturally ), to have more gimmicks such as shields and specific damage threshholds ( i. e. "zombies" absorb the first 300 direct damage before applying damage )? AI does naturally try to get out of AoE circles to some extent but would you like this to be more aggressive? Etc.

Just curious.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 07 February 2014 - 01:02 PM.


#2 Datenshi92

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 01:48 PM

I think that mobs in general should have natural defenses against zerg behavior. If an X number of players are, for example, within 350 radius, it should enter a defensive mode. This defensive mode could trigger more self-protection boons, blocking, evading, reflecting etc. The greater the number of people the more difficult it becomes to inflict direct damage unto a monster.

Edited by Datenshi92, 07 February 2014 - 01:52 PM.


#3 Naevius

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 01:55 PM

Monsters should be in groups of various sizes, and not be spread evenly over the map. And they should move in some purposeful way, or camp a location for a reason.

You should have areas with no enemies at all, then come over a hill and find a whole pack of wolves, or an outlaw gang, for example.

Orr, in particular, is a place that I think should be mostly desolate, with occasional really scary groups of enemies or tough single monsters.

GW2 doesn't really need lots of random mobs, because they are not important to the leveling process. Most people just learn to run past them anyway.

#4 RandolfRa

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 01:57 PM

I wish they could use interrupts, evasion and healing skills smarter than just spamming them randomly. Also what Naevius said.

#5 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 01:57 PM

I'd actually make them dumber, so that they'd explode faster.
GW2 has an insanely boring skill design (auto-attack spam, with the skills that actually add flavour having massive recharges), so having to take on more difficult foes would just force players to wait for cooldowns before each encounter and nobody's got time for that.

As for non-trash, I'd look into groups instead: have players take on multiple foes at the same time instead of taking on super foes with invulnerability or other gimmicky shit.

#6 Konzacelt

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 02:44 PM

I think they should do away with aggro range.  Like completely.  So if you aggro a risen giant in Orr, and run all the way back to LA to use the bank, it will find you there and troll you with kd's as your looking for you witch's broom.  Then when you log off for bed, it crashes through your bedroom window and screams "Return!  Die!" at you before ramming you into the corner and crushing you against the drywall.  Then, when it finally kills you, it looks in its backpack and sighs, "Omfg, another porous bone...these humans drop crap!"

#7 davadude

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 02:59 PM

I mentioned this a while ago in a post, don't remember why...

I'd introduce a mechanic called "grouping."  All AI are independent entities that have an extra tag or category/ID (even a simple integer value would work), that defines them as a species.  When attacked, you may notice the game sometimes spawns "berserker" or "enraged," causing them to do extra damage.  If this happens, they also make a yell that can be heard within a certain earshot (the better the enemy class, the greater the range), and other like-specied AI come to help them.  It may not improve the AI too much, but it would be a simple way to already create more interesting combat, as mechanics such as slowdown, stun, and luring would become much more crucial.
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#8 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:00 PM

View PostNaevius, on 07 February 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Monsters should be in groups of various sizes, and not be spread evenly over the map. And they should move in some purposeful way, or camp a location for a reason.

You should have areas with no enemies at all, then come over a hill and find a whole pack of wolves, or an outlaw gang, for example.

Orr, in particular, is a place that I think should be mostly desolate, with occasional really scary groups of enemies or tough single monsters.

GW2 doesn't really need lots of random mobs, because they are not important to the leveling process. Most people just learn to run past them anyway.

Wouldn't that be too dangerous for solo players? Remember that you are not guaranteed an AI team as you were in GW1 or in other games with this model. Unless you specifically use AoE attacks and weapons you can easily be overrun.

#9 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:06 PM

View Postdavadude, on 07 February 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I mentioned this a while ago in a post, don't remember why...

I'd introduce a mechanic called "grouping."  All AI are independent entities that have an extra tag or category/ID (even a simple integer value would work), that defines them as a species.  When attacked, you may notice the game sometimes spawns "berserker" or "enraged," causing them to do extra damage.  If this happens, they also make a yell that can be heard within a certain earshot (the better the enemy class, the greater the range), and other like-specied AI come to help them.  It may not improve the AI too much, but it would be a simple way to already create more interesting combat, as mechanics such as slowdown, stun, and luring would become much more crucial.
This is actually already in the game. Take the bandit camps throughout Kryta for instance; many roaming bandits do so in threes and fours and if you attack one you get the group. This is true of all species; skale, ooze, etc. all do the same thing. I do feel that it is a bit "weak" because of how the game is for solo players so it may not be as noticeable to the generic player but if you were to head to a mildly populated area with small groups there are units and there is unit gameplay.

There may need to be more of it or the range may need to be severely increased.

#10 davadude

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:12 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 07 February 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

This is actually already in the game. Take the bandit camps throughout Kryta for instance; many roaming bandits do so in threes and fours and if you attack one you get the group. This is true of all species; skale, ooze, etc. all do the same thing. I do feel that it is a bit "weak" because of how the game is for solo players so it may not be as noticeable to the generic player but if you were to head to a mildly populated area with small groups there are units and there is unit gameplay.

There may need to be more of it or the range may need to be severely increased.

The unit gameplay is based mainly on you entering the aggro range.  In GW2, on top of the player aggro range, there is also monster aggro range.  I want them to get rid of the monster aggro in favor for a more tactic or sound based system that promotes isolating monsters before killing them.
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#11 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:25 PM

View Postdavadude, on 07 February 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

The unit gameplay is based mainly on you entering the aggro range.  In GW2, on top of the player aggro range, there is also monster aggro range.  I want them to get rid of the monster aggro in favor for a more tactic or sound based system that promotes isolating monsters before killing them.
My only concern lies with horde-type events and fortifications. Won't that attract entire droves of enemies? For instance if you enter a Harathi camp the enemies attracted to you are within a few "meters" or whatever of the enemies affected allowing for pulling; if you changed this to more of a tactical approach because you lack the inherent ability to commit stealth kills it would only make sense when they shout "alert" that the entire camp, seeing as they are the guards, actually goes on alert. You would be unable to lure guards and other entities without simply setting off a global alarm since aggro would jump from enemy to enemy cluster through sounds or tactic.

I know it sounds bad but it's your failsafe that the game doesn't work directly like that. Combined with how the game spawns enemies at random points even with sound spawn timers it might seem like an endless trudge without necessarily being an event and there are no safespots within the camp itself. It sounds fun for a minute and then like a complete agitation.

#12 Feathermoore

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:25 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 07 February 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Wouldn't that be too dangerous for solo players? Remember that you are not guaranteed an AI team as you were in GW1 or in other games with this model. Unless you specifically use AoE attacks and weapons you can easily be overrun.

I personally don't really understand the mindset of soloing in an MMO. At least not for any noticeable period of time. It would encourage solo players to form impromptu groups that would come together and split as needed. The current GW2 system of not needing to be in a party to be in a "group" already supports this.

You also wouldn't have to do this everywhere. Large areas of the map can still be easily soloable with the loner mobs and you can add in groups of monsters in specific areas. Don't lock solo players out of parts of the map, but make areas that really do need a few people to get through. It breaks the map up. You can add in mobs that call for reinforcements if they are not interrupted as well to break up the play experience even more. Think of them as "eventless dynamic events."

I already round up 4-8 mobs at a time by running around in a circle to kill them all at once as it is. To be fair I play a dagger/staff well necro most of the time, but it isn't like fighting groups in the open world is challenging.


Honestly, I would add more variety. A drake doesn't have to have the exact same skills or AI as B drake or C drake. Add a sense of unknown as to exactly what you are going to be facing. They should still feel like drakes, but some could be faster, more focused on breath attacks, hit harder, or call for help. Have no indication prior to fighting which type it is. This is more realistic and makes things harder without actually making them harder... kinda.

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 07 February 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

snip

Even't shouldn't have the call for help type effect I agree. But they don't need it since they already effectively have it built into their script. Fortifications though really shouldn't be easily soloable. It makes the fortifications feel like every other part of the map. An example being the centaur fortification that has the catapults that attack you in the surrounding area. When I first encountered this I thought it was going to be some special area that would be difficult and require a group to get through. If the event is not active, it is the same as every other place except you have to dodge a red circle every now and again.

You can also control this overwhelming effect by controlling the range of the effect, make it so it can't chain (reinforcements don't call for help), or some other limiter.

Edited by Feathermoore, 07 February 2014 - 03:34 PM.

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#13 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:36 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 07 February 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

I personally don't really understand the mindset of soloing in an MMO. At least not for any noticeable period of time. It would encourage solo players to form impromptu groups that would come together and split as needed. The current GW2 system of not needing to be in a party to be in a "group" already supports this.

You also wouldn't have to do this everywhere. Large areas of the map can still be easily soloable with the loner mobs and you can add in groups of monsters in specific areas. Don't lock solo players out of parts of the map, but make areas that really do need a few people to get through. It breaks the map up. You can add in mobs that call for reinforcements if they are not interrupted as well to break up the play experience even more. Think of them as "eventless dynamic events."

I already round up 4-8 mobs at a time by running around in a circle to kill them all at once as it is. To be fair I play a dagger/staff well necro most of the time, but it isn't like fighting groups in the open world is challenging.


Honestly, I would add more variety. A drake doesn't have to have the exact same skills or AI as B drake or C drake. Add a sense of unknown as to exactly what you are going to be facing. They should still feel like drakes, but some could be faster, more focused on breath attacks, hit harder, or call for help. Have no indication prior to fighting which type it is. This is more realistic and makes things harder without actually making them harder... kinda.
To your second suggestion for diversification I completely agree.

To your first I don't know how to handle that. You're correct that an MMO should involve parties and teams but some people only want to play with their friends who are not always online. The main concern arises at "map completion"; if we break up the map that's fine but we cannot break it up and blockade certain elements; only in three or four places is this even instituted in the entire game and all of them are in Orr specifically the temple's of Melandru, etc. where you cannot channel the point so long as the statue is active so you must defeat the Priest(s) for those skill points.

That blockade is indeed forced behavior and some people don't like it to this day even though it's always been that way but one key point is that making this the norm would create more dissatisfaction than anything. A player who works hard enough to be level 80 and doesn't always run straight AoE shouldn't be gimped at getting a lvl 6 skill point while a party of lvl 5's do it easily. That's where I become concerned because if we split the map up around areas that "don't matter" then no one will visit them without incentive but if we split it up around skill points and vistas then we completely negate the power of single-player capabilities regardless of scaling.

If you have a proposed solution to my worries, by all means.

#14 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:39 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 07 February 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

having to take on more difficult foes would just force players to wait for cooldowns before each encounter and nobody's got time for that.

You wouldn't have to wait if you grouped up with other people (especially with different skillsets, what an MMO is supposed to be all about) and/or had henchmen (GW1 heroes, for the people who for some reason cannot group with others).

#15 Feathermoore

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:45 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 07 February 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

To your second suggestion for diversification I completely agree.

To your first I don't know how to handle that. You're correct that an MMO should involve parties and teams but some people only want to play with their friends who are not always online. The main concern arises at "map completion"; if we break up the map that's fine but we cannot break it up and blockade certain elements; only in three or four places is this even instituted in the entire game and all of them are in Orr specifically the temple's of Melandru, etc. where you cannot channel the point so long as the statue is active so you must defeat the Priest(s) for those skill points.

That blockade is indeed forced behavior and some people don't like it to this day even though it's always been that way but one key point is that making this the norm would create more dissatisfaction than anything. A player who works hard enough to be level 80 and doesn't always run straight AoE shouldn't be gimped at getting a lvl 6 skill point while a party of lvl 5's do it easily. That's where I become concerned because if we split the map up around areas that "don't matter" then no one will visit them without incentive but if we split it up around skill points and vistas then we completely negate the power of single-player capabilities regardless of scaling.

If you have a proposed solution to my worries, by all means.

I concur. I don't think the grouped up areas work in every map. You don't want to place it in areas that people are leveling at low levels because they actually do form a blockade at that point. Placing them in areas with the potential for high traffic and designing them to encourage traffic would be how you would alleviate the blockade. Since solo players are the only ones that would be blockaded (meh I don't actually consider that a downside), encouraging players to be in the area more often than not would make it so that it would never actually be blockaded. I can not actually design an area like this, I don't have the knowledge or expertise to make it.  Perhaps you make maps interact with each other and certain highly desired events only occur if certain things have been done in other maps. Connect the world together. Random thought but it isn't really about specific monsters.

The game is designed in a way that actually splits players. It doesn't encourage interaction. In fact, the majority of the game discourages it. Any system change that encourages interactions with other players is a boon in my opinion. If map completion blockades are really that much of an issue, only put a POI in the area.

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#16 MazingerZ

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 04:07 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 07 February 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Wouldn't that be too dangerous for solo players? Remember that you are not guaranteed an AI team as you were in GW1 or in other games with this model. Unless you specifically use AoE attacks and weapons you can easily be overrun.

Drawing on WoW, there were classes that dealt with multiple mobs better than most.  Warriors were notoriously hard to level until you got Cleave and even then, still had some difficulties because they were a class that couldn't heal, nor had much in the way of CC.  They had a Fear, but that could easily pull additional aggro.  Priests were the same.  You just had classes that were initially ill-equipped to deal with multiple normal mobs.  The capacity to deal with multiple mobs, to pace yourself, and avoid picking up additional aggro were inherently part of the challenge in soloing in WoW.

GW2 even gives you more tools to deal with in those situations because you can switch to weapons that do have an AOE effect.

Here's the thing with GW2's AI... there is no sense of control with them.  You have infrequent periods of control.  You can push.  You can pull.   You can cripple or you can fear.  But those moments are fleeting.  The trinity at least brought about some sort of sense about the monsters.  They attacked the one who held the highest threat.  That at least made them somewhat governed by a stick of logic, even if that logic didn't make much sense to us.  Despite ArenaNet claiming some sort of AI is dictating the target and actions, anyone will be damned to determine what that is.

All it looks like on screen is a spastic attempting to flail at everyone attacking it and having no concept for winning.  And when you've got a bunch of them in an event or something, it looks like a horde of Rabbids with no coordination or strategy.
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#17 Krazzar

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 04:53 PM

View PostNaevius, on 07 February 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Monsters should be in groups of various sizes, and not be spread evenly over the map. And they should move in some purposeful way, or camp a location for a reason.

You should have areas with no enemies at all, then come over a hill and find a whole pack of wolves, or an outlaw gang, for example.

Orr, in particular, is a place that I think should be mostly desolate, with occasional really scary groups of enemies or tough single monsters.

GW2 doesn't really need lots of random mobs, because they are not important to the leveling process. Most people just learn to run past them anyway.

I always thought it odd that you can consistently pull one target away when they have five or six allies in combat range (skill range). This, and enemy's standing around and respawning out of thin air, was the most disappointing part of GW2.  Enemys just don't feel lifelike, they usually just wait for you to kill them or run by if they're not motivated by event scripting. I think grouping would help that aspect, and having a purpose is also very important.  That is how GW1 worked with groups and patrols, I don't really get why they went with static enemies standing around until they're killed and respawn endlessly.

I would also add an extended visual range to the AI as well.  Ideally their visual range would be shown on the mini-map as well as whether they are in combat or not. Seems odd you can see enemies from a mile away but they can't see you until you're within ~800 range.

In terms of combat I don't think much would need to be changed, I just expected everything to be more diffucult, which is a change of the numbers and not necessarily systems. I would like "normal" content to be more difficult and funnel people into groups.  I don't see a problem with grouping as long as the group has something to do together. The problem I have found is most people just want to get their own map completion and not "waste" time with a group that may need some things they have done and simply run from objective to objective past opponents. If the combat were more difficult that might have been different and more inviting to ad hoc grouping.

Edited by Krazzar, 07 February 2014 - 05:32 PM.


#18 Feathermoore

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 06:56 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 07 February 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:


I would also add an extended visual range to the AI as well.  Ideally their visual range would be shown on the mini-map as well as whether they are in combat or not. Seems odd you can see enemies from a mile away but they can't see you until you're within ~800 range.


Sort of on this. Do all mobs in GW2 have the same ranges? I honestly haven't noticed since I never cared. For example, Kournan spotters in GW1 had double the aggro range of a standard mob. In FFXI most mobs aggro visually so if you passed behind them they wouldn't notice you. Some mobs had hearing or smell aggro characteristics though that made it so they had a smaller 360 degree aggro range as well. These ranges varied from species to species and different spell effects countered different aggro characteristics.

Dredge could aggro off sound. Undead would likely aggro only off vision. Wolves and such would have all three.


On the grouping thing, I think Anet missed out on an interesting interaction that they already use with NPCs (to a degree). Mobs could have the ability to "hot form" groups with each other. Mobs of allied types could interact with each other when close enough and temporarily form a party that aggros together. That party could then be disbanded when they move far enough apart. Such formations could allow for some vocal queues much like NPC banter. It would make the world feel more alive and solo players would need to pay attention to the possibility of enemies having formed these groups.

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#19 Jentari

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 07:08 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 07 February 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

I personally don't really understand the mindset of soloing in an MMO. At least not for any noticeable period of time. It would encourage solo players to form impromptu groups that would come together and split as needed. The current GW2 system of not needing to be in a party to be in a "group" already supports this.

I understand what you are saying but in realty the companies that make these games want to make as much money as they can and by having things where people can solo brings in more people, thus more money.

Maybe in the past this wasn't an issue but I dont see it changing any time soon.

#20 RandolfRa

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 07:17 PM

View Postdavadude, on 07 February 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I mentioned this a while ago in a post, don't remember why...

I'd introduce a mechanic called "grouping."  All AI are independent entities that have an extra tag or category/ID (even a simple integer value would work), that defines them as a species.  When attacked, you may notice the game sometimes spawns "berserker" or "enraged," causing them to do extra damage.  If this happens, they also make a yell that can be heard within a certain earshot (the better the enemy class, the greater the range), and other like-specied AI come to help them.  It may not improve the AI too much, but it would be a simple way to already create more interesting combat, as mechanics such as slowdown, stun, and luring would become much more crucial.

I like this idea. In addition to improving gameplay, it would also make the world more immersive.

#21 Naevius

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 07:31 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 07 February 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Wouldn't that be too dangerous for solo players? Remember that you are not guaranteed an AI team as you were in GW1 or in other games with this model. Unless you specifically use AoE attacks and weapons you can easily be overrun.

Unlike other games, there is no particular reason to kill random monsters here, so you could run away from groups that were too strong. Like you would in real life. It would definitely make exploring more exciting...

Edited by Naevius, 07 February 2014 - 07:32 PM.


#22 Feathermoore

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 07:33 PM

View PostJentari, on 07 February 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

I understand what you are saying but in realty the companies that make these games want to make as much money as they can and by having things where people can solo brings in more people, thus more money.

Maybe in the past this wasn't an issue but I dont see it changing any time soon.

Designing the game to be solo able, then making it fun as a group is backwards. You design it as a group game and create mechanics to make it soloable.

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#23 MazingerZ

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 08:05 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 07 February 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

Designing the game to be solo able, then making it fun as a group is backwards. You design it as a group game and create mechanics to make it soloable.

I'm not sure how to take this.  This could be a good way of explaining how many MMOs fall apart at end-game, but at the same time it brings up the conundrum of how to engage players to hit max-level.  Anyone knows that synching up during the leveling process is very hard. I've only ever heard of couples doing it.  At the same time, you have to train and condition the players for the end-game multi-player.

This was a conundrum that plagued WoW as well.  All the way up through Lich King, they had group quests.  I think those disappeared in Cataclysm and were moved into the Dungeons.  But Vanilla was the worst.  Do a chain (what there were) and end up getting pushed to an area crowded with Elites and no one to group with.  I don't think I ever finished the Icecrown quests that required groupings at level 80.  And in vanilla, hitting 18ish and missing out on that sweet, sweet experience from Pyrewood Village (which had the coolest thing... humans by day and worgen by night!) was a bone of contention for me.  I was kinda happy when they got rid of it in Cataclysm.

Edited by MazingerZ, 07 February 2014 - 08:06 PM.

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#24 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:36 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 07 February 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

I concur. I don't think the grouped up areas work in every map. You don't want to place it in areas that people are leveling at low levels because they actually do form a blockade at that point. Placing them in areas with the potential for high traffic and designing them to encourage traffic would be how you would alleviate the blockade. Since solo players are the only ones that would be blockaded (meh I don't actually consider that a downside), encouraging players to be in the area more often than not would make it so that it would never actually be blockaded. I can not actually design an area like this, I don't have the knowledge or expertise to make it.  Perhaps you make maps interact with each other and certain highly desired events only occur if certain things have been done in other maps. Connect the world together. Random thought but it isn't really about specific monsters.

The game is designed in a way that actually splits players. It doesn't encourage interaction. In fact, the majority of the game discourages it. Any system change that encourages interactions with other players is a boon in my opinion. If map completion blockades are really that much of an issue, only put a POI in the area.

The thing is ignoring a demographic ( solo players ) isn't wise. Many people play in off-hours and so things like Jormag don't get done at 2am because there's no one else on or at least not enough people for it. To make this part of the map itself is questionable. Then we have the problem of traffic; the highest traffic areas in the game, other than for WBs, are really beginner areas or at areas that harbor materials; generally speaking you're not going to get that great a set of connectivity without direct incentive based behavior so in essence what must be given out is a sizeable prize. That's both good and bad because it just makes a World Event but at the same time doesn't incorporate your vision very well.

To take this idea and flesh it will take some serious thought.

View PostNaevius, on 07 February 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

Unlike other games, there is no particular reason to kill random monsters here, so you could run away from groups that were too strong. Like you would in real life. It would definitely make exploring more exciting...
This causes classic inconsistencies which will effect class value though. A high-damage AoE Bombkit Engineer will trounce groups with his regenerative backpack and Elixer-Infused Bombs. A nowhere near as tanky, nowhere near as versatile, nowhere near as fast single-target class will pale in comparison and eventually fall to dirt.

It is the same as the Warrior > Necromancer relationship that is current where Warriors are an  AFK class and Necromancers are ... well ... Anyway, yes.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 07 February 2014 - 10:41 PM.


#25 Arkham Creed

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:59 PM

This has probably been said already, but I would like mobs to be more “aware” of each other. This is something that GW1 did very well, the benefit of being a heavily instanced game I guess, but “encounters” were set up and designed with groups in mind, and enemies roamed around in packs that had various roles to fill and AI behaviors that allowed them to act as a unit. Healers, for example, would focus on healing while big meaty tanks would rush you. In essence the game didn’t just have a trinity, it would use the trinity against you.

With combo fields and the like GW2 could do some really interesting things here, even without a holy trinity, but in the end it requires that the creatures in the game work together, and fight as a team rather than a bunch of individuals fighting beside each other. Of course Arena Net is struggling enough getting players to do that, so I doubt we’ll see the AI doing it any time soon. Although if the AI did it first it might encourage players to start trying it. After all if they could start designing some events where coordinated mobs of AIs completely destroy mindless player zergs then maybe people will stop rolling all zerker and screaming “stack on boss” in map chat in favor of actually thinking about what they're doing and at least trying to play the game as originally intended.

#26 Echou

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 01:23 PM

!Brainstorming ahead!

This isn't exactly about monster AI but I was brainstorming on Defiance buff overhaul:

Defiant:
-While defiant, the boss is stronger and tougher and has cc immunity (can still be interrupted)
-Defiance scales with amount of players, decreases with cc attacks
-When it reaches 0, boss takes more damage and is vulnerable to cc. It will reset after some time.
-Some bosses have an easily telegraphed skill which will restore Defiance. This can be interrupted with cc

So It would be like Stagger on FF13 and it would encourage to use cc.

Do the enemies in GW2 have armor ratings like in GW1? Some enemies (like humanoids) should also have professions and be traited as well and have sigils/runes (this one would be easier to implement on monsters too).

Just a little brainstorming here.

Edited by Echou, 08 February 2014 - 01:26 PM.


#27 Tunji

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:55 PM

look at the monsters in edge of the mist nuf said.

#28 lalangamena

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 06:48 AM

there is much to be improve in monsters, not only in AI.

1) about after map level 40 you will not see a single 'regular' mob, regular intelligent mobs will come in packs 3 to 5 . single mobs will always be veterans. it is a dangerous world out there for monsters and they also want to survive.

2) mobs will have strengths and weaknesses that fit the meta-world (at least for conditions...) i.e. fire elementals/demons/destroyers will be healed by burn and take damage from chill. ice elementals will take extra damage from burn and immune to chill.
ghost type of mobs will be  hurt only by guardian symbols or under effect of any kind of ghost/undead slaying potion or weapon sigil.
golems/undead and all other animated monsters (i.e. not live ones) will be immune to poison, bleed and confusion as animated objects cannot be confused poisoned and don't have blood to bleed. but will get extra damage from burn.

3) AI, will start from the basics, mobs will not stand in red circles, mob will try to get out of AOE. thats why we have CC.
    mobs will occasionally dodge (if the casting of an attack is more than 1 sec the mob will dodge etc),
mobs will have more access to all boons:
predator animals will have access to fury and swiftness, animated monsters will have access to protection and retaliation, intelligent mobs  will have 'class' boons i.e shaman types will be able to cast AOE aegis/protection/regen boons on their friends. warrior types will have more access to might and fury etc etc.


4) total revmap of all dynamic events. all regular monsters will become veterans, all veterans will be champions all champions will be strong champions  ( you cant really compare wolf master champion to nigeling giant champion do you? ) scale up event rewards.

#29 sanctuaire

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:46 AM

this is not purely with regards to monster ai, but let's give it shot:

1) more world Bosses that actually move and push people around like a boss should -

and not some just hp walls that fire off red circles to be dodged.
teq - just stays there, creates damage areas to be avoided or overcome with healing stacks.
(sure, there are parts where you need to defend the lasers, but the boss itself -- just STAYS there
like a freaking WALL) jorlag - just stays there, shatterer - just stays there, wurm, marionette,
fire ele, inquest golem, shadow behemoth, .... see the pattern? and even the bosses that CAN move,
like the temple bosses, karka queen, eye of zhaitan, ect. can be corralled, pushed around, cornered to
​ walls like pitiful excuses of a boss.

i'm really sorry, but gw2's world bosses are really pathetic especially if they
just stand in one place growling while firing off aoes for 10 minutes, and if they
need crutches like tons of adds or convoluted mechanics to damage them.

compared to other mmo's where map bosses are actually feared,
doesn't need gimmicky ways to damage them, and can
steamroll through an uncoordinated player zerg, most of
gw2 world bosses are an exercise in stack together and
press 1 monotony.


2) more varied enemy groups with more skills and resistances

this is actually happening recently with some of the later temporary
dungeons, and i'm quite happy with that development.

would like to see groups of enemies working together, with more skills...
like say, one would lay traps, while another monster would pull a player via
scorp wire, and another one would set a wall of reflection/ feeback/
smokescreen/ line of warding, while another one takes away conditions
from their monster groupmates, hands out conditions to players ect.

while sub-bosses can do *some* of these, their repertoire are very limited,
and would like to see regular monster groups having these skills and can combo
and play off with each other.

------------------------------------------------------------------

that said, it might also be more interesting if a lot of monster groups have varied
resistance between them. for example, in a monster patrol group of 5, three of them
would be regular types susceptible to crit, but two of them are uncrittable and have
very high physical defense, yet more susceptible to condition damage ...
which would indirectly affect the over reliance of people with purely crit gear,
making build diversity more viable and lessen the stigma between classes in dungeon
grouping.

3) the element of randomness

while diablo 3 wasn't the game i hoped it would be, i realized that the randomness
of the monster spawn and traits somehow kept me on my toes with encounters on high difficulties.
enemies that release sparks when you hit them, explode when they die, wallers, desecrators
which create poison paths, specific damage-type reflectors
... made me look and think on how about i'll deal with every encounter.

because let's face it, after doing dungeon paths every day, knowing where enemies will spawn,
knowing all of their traits and moves, it all just becomes a chore and a grind, no matter how fast
you complete it. adding an element of randomness to the traits (as long as they don't implement
broken ones), not knowing what you'll encounter, brings back some of the tension
that makes a dungeon fun and challenging. it would also help people try out balanced builds
and group compositions by not knowing what kind of monster traits they'll be facing this time,
and to know full well that crit isn't the best choice for every encounter.

4) with the previous suggestions in place, bring back the usefulness of interrupts, counters, and
   control.

with monsters having varied skills, traits and resistances; you can bump up the practicability of
interrupts, counters, and controls. gw1 had a wealth of those... skill recharge denial/skill denial/interrupts /
energy drain/ ect... so anet wouldn't need to look far for inspiration they can apply for gw2.

4.a) bringing back the skill charging bar for monsters and re-evaluation of the defiant system for
world bosses

since we're bringing up interrupts and control skills up to par, its hard to see some non red-circle AOE boss
skills' wind-up starting animations with all those effects flying at them, and people stacked on top of them.
(especially if a lot of weapons like twilight block the view)

to make interrupts viable in these situations, bringing back the monster skill charge bar from gw1 is a must.
players can see 'ohh, he's going to use skill X' regardless of flying pink ponies blocking the view of the boss.

there was a time in gw1 when a ranger or mesmer can earn his keep in the party be ensuring bosses'
most devastating attacks were interrupted. certainly not a fan of defiant, and would like to see it reworked.
how about if a boss is casting a particularly nasty spell, it can be interrupted if its interrupted X number of times
before the casting finishes. there could be a counter for it that could scale up depending on the number of
people around.


... that's all for now, perhaps more later when i get back.

Edited by sanctuaire, 10 February 2014 - 11:44 AM.


#30 Phadde

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:40 AM

> In order to make Control more viable in PvE, I'd love to see abilities given to some mobs that encourage interrupts and such. I.e., a knockdown, burst or a big heal after a fair casting animation. That means that Control can be a viable form of improving damage, and perhaps save the group from a wipe.

> Additional abilities could be given to mobs in order to promote active play through evades and similar mechanics; bursts and knockbacks as mentioned above could also add some tension and required focus to some fights, if they're powerful enough. AoEs also comes to mind; I like having to be aware of surrounding AoEs in addition to Boss animations. It makes the fights more engaging and thus enjoyable.

> Attrition mechanics could make supportive healing more viable.

> Attacks which prevents stacking. I personally hate that strategy. What fun is there to be had if we're skipping the good stuff; the challenge, the content, the actual fun? I hate that people seem to exchange that for... well, gold. Which I think should be a secondary reward.
Maybe some actually enjoys it, or maybe most just do it because it feels dumb not to?

Edited by Phadde, 10 February 2014 - 11:45 AM.





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