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Should all the older World Bosses be updated again?


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#1 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:01 AM

Are the world bosses hard enough for the player base? Do they need to grow because the base has grown in skill and now swats them like flies?

#2 Karuro

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:05 AM

Let's keep the few world bosses that I still bother to visit as they are.

#3 Bryant Again

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:37 AM

View PostKaruro, on 10 February 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:


Let's keep the few world bosses that I still bother to visit as they are.

If "updating" them means giving them the Taco treatment then yeah, seconded.

#4 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:49 AM

Why waste the time?  Core issues with the game go deeper than a few bosses.  The combat system is an ungodly mess.
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Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#5 typographie

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 05:48 AM

While there's probably many bosses that could use some tweaks, I really, really don't want to see ArenaNet get into a situation where they feel the need to keep rebalancing all of the boss encounters every few months after the players have trivialized them again.

I feel like the last rebalance put the world bosses in a position where they have more interesting mechanics and aren't being insta-gibbed by zergs in the time it takes to run to them. Aside from making sure the encounters work properly, I'd rather they focused those resources on new bosses for currently desolate zones and/or more content in general.

#6 davadude

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 05:53 AM

They should make all bosses far more difficult, preferably with each having specific mechanics for that boss fight, on top of adding a meta chain with a boss to each map.  HOWEVER, they need to fix their scaling system before they do anything of this.
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#7 Nikephoros

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:45 AM

Yes, so long as there is still a way to reliably get Dragonite.  If the only way to get Dragonite was to kill a boss like Teq, well, not many people would have enough to get ascended armor in the next year.

#8 sanctuaire

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:51 AM

they should,


*BUT*

they should fix first the long list of bugs in traits/skills/dungeons/general game mechanics
that aren't still fixed after more than a year already.

and boy are they many. heck even with just magg, we still encounter several different
bugs every now and then.

i'd rather have them prioritize those first than the LS imho.
.

Edited by sanctuaire, 10 February 2014 - 11:53 AM.


#9 Arcade Fire

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:20 PM

They should add a separate instance into the game for "Boss week". Each week it's specifically a new boss fight on a schedule. That way, shitty people can still get their ezmode world bosses and people looking to get something more out of the game besides afk auto attacking can get theirs.

#10 Veji

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:36 PM

View Posttypographie, on 10 February 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

While there's probably many bosses that could use some tweaks, I really, really don't want to see ArenaNet get into a situation where they feel the need to keep rebalancing all of the boss encounters every few months after the players have trivialized them again.

I feel like the last rebalance put the world bosses in a position where they have more interesting mechanics and aren't being insta-gibbed by zergs in the time it takes to run to them. Aside from making sure the encounters work properly, I'd rather they focused those resources on new bosses for currently desolate zones and/or more content in general.

I agree with this.  Don't fix whats not broke.  Dragonite Ore farming doesn't need to be anymore difficult than what it already is.  Now, if they placed Dragonite ore in dungeons, i wouldn't care, but then everyone would rage about that even more, so don't fix whats not broke.  Ya gotta draw the line somewhere to make content easy enough for us newbies to do.

#11 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 02:55 PM

Interesting responses. So more of a "Not Right Now" mindset. The bosses that come to mind are enemies like SB or Jungle Wurm who are literally just there for decoration at this point. Perhaps being selective would be better rather than a complete revamp?

#12 Gyre

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:31 PM

Frozen Maw and Shatterer have some massive scaling issues with health after the more recent WE rebalance.  If this is the direction they intend to go then absolutely not.  In the case of Jungle Wurm, Frozen Maw, Behemoth and Fire Elemental well...these are all in sub level 20 zones.  They don't need further buffing in fact they should probably be toned back down and have the rewards nerfed.  Imagine some newbie strolling in to one of these epic fights in a starter zone, seeing a swarm of 80s, and getting wrecked constantly.  Yes, that's loads of fun.  Anet has also proven themselves utterly incapable of large scale WE boss balance of late so why would anyone want to encourage more until they get the formula right on what they just implemented?

#13 Nikephoros

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:57 PM

View PostGyre, on 10 February 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

Anet has also proven themselves utterly incapable of large scale WE boss balance of late so why would anyone want to encourage more until they get the formula right on what they just implemented?

Marionette, Wurm and Teq were all reasonably well received and definitely far better executed than you are giving credit for.

#14 Lol Lol Lol Guy

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 05:21 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 10 February 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

Marionette, Wurm and Teq were all reasonably well received and definitely far better executed than you are giving credit for.

The main problem with these fights is the scaling system. I have NEVER done Teq since it's been rereleased, or remade or whatever. My computer was not working those 2 weeks when everyone was doing it for the update and living world. So i came back on and everyone was gone. I even tried guesting on other servers and there would still hardly be anybody there. If they can fix the scaling system for these fights, then yea I'd be really happy with the strategy involved.

#15 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 10 February 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

Marionette, Wurm and Teq were all reasonably well received and definitely far better executed than you are giving credit for.

It's gotten to the point where they have to put an employee on watchdog duty to make sure no one breaks their faberge wurm egg event.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#16 davadude

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 06:20 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 10 February 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

Marionette, Wurm and Teq were all reasonably well received and definitely far better executed than you are giving credit for.

Although this is true, they've also revealed Arenanet need to have a good long look at their scaling algorithms for these events.  Tequatl, Triple Trouble, etc; is dead on most servers, not due to them not being enjoyable, but due to people knowing that the chance of succeeding is almost nihil.

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 10 February 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Interesting responses. So more of a "Not Right Now" mindset. The bosses that come to mind are enemies like SB or Jungle Wurm who are literally just there for decoration at this point. Perhaps being selective would be better rather than a complete revamp?

See above and previous post.  However, some world bosses like the Behemoth and the Single Jungle Wurm do not need to be buffed, they're meta events meant for lower level zones.  We're mainly referencing elite bosses, such as Tequatl et al, which should pose a serious challenge, but not one of incorrect proportions.

The marionette is an example of a good meta, but only because the platforms have been created to let the game do the scaling in terms of players rather than in terms of enemy health/AI/tactics.
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#17 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 06:28 PM

View Postdavadude, on 10 February 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

The marionette is an example of a good meta, but only because the platforms have been created to let the game do the scaling in terms of players rather than in terms of enemy health/AI/tactics.

Even that's relatively broken with the random placement.  If you move most people who aren't prescribing to the meta on a single platform, expect to not complete the boss in time.  Saw that happen once.  "WTF?  What's going on?"  "Platform 4 is still up, they can't kill the boss."  "They dead?"  "No, they just aren't killing it fast enough."

Turns out they had ONE guy there rollin' zerker, the rest either hodge-podge or support / healing.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#18 davadude

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 06:47 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 10 February 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

Even that's relatively broken with the random placement.  If you move most people who aren't prescribing to the meta on a single platform, expect to not complete the boss in time.  Saw that happen once.  "WTF?  What's going on?"  "Platform 4 is still up, they can't kill the boss."  "They dead?"  "No, they just aren't killing it fast enough."

Turns out they had ONE guy there rollin' zerker, the rest either hodge-podge or support / healing.

Hence why I called it a good example (it works most of the time when people put in organization 10 minutes before the event and during the event), and not a GREAT example.  ;)
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#19 Konzacelt

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 07:01 PM

I don't know, this whole argument revolves around the open-world, and therefore uncontrollable, aspect of game.  How do you "update" a WB in terms of requiring better teamwork for success when there's no sure way to implement that teamwork?

#20 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 07:05 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 10 February 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

I don't know, this whole argument revolves around the open-world, and therefore uncontrollable, aspect of game.  How do you "update" a WB in terms of requiring better teamwork for success when there's no sure way to implement that teamwork?

"Self organization" ... also known as exclusion and elitism :D
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Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#21 Gilles VI

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 07:42 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 10 February 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

Marionette, Wurm and Teq were all reasonably well received and definitely far better executed than you are giving credit for.

They were well received as a much needed max lvl challenge, they were not well received as a fun/easy thing to do once in a while in a low-level zone.
As many others have said, they should have implemented this as an instance and a sort of raid, so the number of participants is determined and they could adjust the scaling to that amount of people to make it a true challenge.

#22 ChuyDog08

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:45 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 10 February 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

Marionette, Wurm and Teq were all reasonably well received and definitely far better executed than you are giving credit for.

These may have been well received by achievement hunters, but on Dragonbrand server they are all dead events.  The Marionette fails to sever one chain and is over in less than 10 minutes due to leaks.  There is not enough players to begin the worm event.  Teq stands alone until the event times out.

If Anet keeps doing this to boss encounters they had better give us new content.  I am running out of things to keep me busy on a week we are doing horrible in WvW.  I guess I will try completing all the Mini Game achievements and start playing PvP.   Oooh.  I got it, we can finally get our 1000 Giant kills.  Oh wait, they will probably change those events also.

#23 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:55 PM

View PostGyre, on 10 February 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

Frozen Maw and Shatterer have some massive scaling issues with health after the more recent WE rebalance.  If this is the direction they intend to go then absolutely not.  In the case of Jungle Wurm, Frozen Maw, Behemoth and Fire Elemental well...these are all in sub level 20 zones.  They don't need further buffing in fact they should probably be toned back down and have the rewards nerfed.  Imagine some newbie strolling in to one of these epic fights in a starter zone, seeing a swarm of 80s, and getting wrecked constantly.  Yes, that's loads of fun.  Anet has also proven themselves utterly incapable of large scale WE boss balance of late so why would anyone want to encourage more until they get the formula right on what they just implemented?

The point of the WB system is so that there is a reason to continue to travel the world and revisit old locations giving "life" to the game. The rewards scale well imo though; if it were just lvl 16s vs. SB I imagine the timer on the fight would genuinely wear down.

#24 Konzacelt

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 01:59 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 10 February 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

The point of the WB system is so that there is a reason to continue to travel the world and revisit old locations giving "life" to the game.

How do you know that?  Judging by the encounters themselves, it seems the WB's are supposed to be there for A ) veteran groups/whole guilds to enjoy, and B ) Dragonite Ore.  Are you saying that players who come to these encounters tend to "rediscover" the zone after the event is over?  I'm not sure that happens much.

Edited by Konzacelt, 11 February 2014 - 02:10 AM.


#25 MazingerZ

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:18 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 10 February 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

The point of the WB system is so that there is a reason to continue to travel the world and revisit old locations giving "life" to the game. The rewards scale well imo though; if it were just lvl 16s vs. SB I imagine the timer on the fight would genuinely wear down.

I mean, yeah, that sounds about right... If we're talking about the 'life' in the same way someone shows up for work a little before their shift so they're on time (or can get chosen to work the mines for a half-pence, take your pick), shoot the shit with the people waiting outside the office or construction area, then the whistle blows and everyone goes to work for their daily slice of bread.  I mean yeah, that's 'life' in the game.  Not sure that's the kind of life one's supposed to look for in their off hours playing a high-fantasy game, but who am I to judge?
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Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#26 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:56 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 11 February 2014 - 01:59 AM, said:

How do you know that?  Judging by the encounters themselves, it seems the WB's are supposed to be there for A ) veteran groups/whole guilds to enjoy, and B ) Dragonite Ore.  Are you saying that players who come to these encounters tend to "rediscover" the zone after the event is over?  I'm not sure that happens much.
Long before Dragonite Ore there was a time when ( A ) was the truth. After incentive was added however through guaranteed rares it did bring more players to more desolate areas. After all one of the core statements you will see from time to time is "I wish there were a reason to go to X map" and one key referenced idea is a boss. Players don't want to "rediscover" the zone, but getting them out to the corners of the globe can be nigh impossible since it's generally unnecessary to ever visit where most of these bosses spawn.

#27 Konzacelt

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:27 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 February 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

Long before Dragonite Ore there was a time when ( A ) was the truth. After incentive was added however through guaranteed rares it did bring more players to more desolate areas. After all one of the core statements you will see from time to time is "I wish there were a reason to go to X map" and one key referenced idea is a boss. Players don't want to "rediscover" the zone, but getting them out to the corners of the globe can be nigh impossible since it's generally unnecessary to ever visit where most of these bosses spawn.

...which begs the question: Why have levels at all when the scaling is so shoddy?  Most games with levels have specific zones appropriate to your level.  I get that the scaling is supposed to "bring you down to par" so to speak, so that one may theoretically enjoy all the zones as at least moderately challenging.  But it didn't really pan out that way.  The Guild Missions do a much better job of spreading the players out, but those are obviously only once a week for a few hours.  And they've also tried to make mid-level mats more important to the crafting process to achieve the same thing, but most just zone in, gather, and zone out.  Champ trains arguably do the same thing, but god how boring those can be: 111111111 run to next boss 1111111111.

So WB's, if I follow you correctly, can be seen as the latest iteration in ANet's attempt to make all of Tyria matter.  They've tried guild missions, mat requirements, champ spawns, and now World Bosses that require large numbers of players with a high degree of coordination.  And yet these, too, are seemingly falling victim to desolation once a player has done it a handful of times.  It seems like players are way more concerned with getting mats for gear and achievements than they are with the actual combat.  Otherwise, you'd see players stick around after the WB's and try out the local mobs.

Is it possible, just maybe, that the mechanics of the game just aren't that interesting?

#28 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:38 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 11 February 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

...which begs the question: Why have levels at all when the scaling is so shoddy?  Most games with levels have specific zones appropriate to your level.  I get that the scaling is supposed to "bring you down to par" so to speak, so that one may theoretically enjoy all the zones as at least moderately challenging.  But it didn't really pan out that way.  The Guild Missions do a much better job of spreading the players out, but those are obviously only once a week for a few hours.  And they've also tried to make mid-level mats more important to the crafting process to achieve the same thing, but most just zone in, gather, and zone out.  Champ trains arguably do the same thing, but god how boring those can be: 111111111 run to next boss 1111111111.

So WB's, if I follow you correctly, can be seen as the latest iteration in ANet's attempt to make all of Tyria matter.  They've tried guild missions, mat requirements, champ spawns, and now World Bosses that require large numbers of players with a high degree of coordination.  And yet these, too, are seemingly falling victim to desolation once a player has done it a handful of times.  It seems like players are way more concerned with getting mats for gear and achievements than they are with the actual combat.  Otherwise, you'd see players stick around after the WB's and try out the local mobs.

Is it possible, just maybe, that the mechanics of the game just aren't that interesting?
I personally believe it's a matter of how players were raised and how players play games objectively. You're right, it's an "in and out" system, but this is across the entire gaming spectrum for all different types of games where you can direct a character; you make a choice, you reinforce that choice, and you play out that choice; it's sort of a sad cycle of gaming that definitely will not end here. The solutions tries ( scaling, world incorporation ) really didn't work; making everything useful just made the I/O system take longer but it didn't really steer away from the I/O blocks of old.

Basically players are still playing the gear game; you build it, it's built, then you're done and you either quit or you lurk until something new comes up. In games were modding is allowed elimination of tedium is generally a goal along with making the game harder; these two things still follow the same method of I/O but either speed it up or slow it down. Difficulty is relative to the I/O itself; the harder it is to get the items the more I/O you must endure while the easier it is the less I/O.

#29 MazingerZ

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:39 AM

Security blanket!  But you have to admit that its a lot of work to apparently keep us in our warm and safe bubble until we arrive at  Sha Ka Ree. </trek reference while I'm making them>
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#30 Gyre

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:15 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 10 February 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

The point of the WB system is so that there is a reason to continue to travel the world and revisit old locations giving "life" to the game. The rewards scale well imo though; if it were just lvl 16s vs. SB I imagine the timer on the fight would genuinely wear down.

Ok but this is how it actually works:

Go to gw2stuff.com, either watch the website or get the overlay.  Rush boss to boss via waypoint as a group and kill things as quickly and efficiently as you possibly can for the most rewards in the shortest amount of time.  Whatever life the group is bringing into otherwise deserted zones goes away as soon as the boss is dead because no one lingers.




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