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Reward: Where is it in GW2?


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#1 master21

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:23 AM

OP quoted here

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

A continuation of a discussion from another thread opened to the public; the question is simply where the reward of the game and it's gameplay lies. Discuss loot, design value, end-game, etc.


View PostEl Duderino, on 11 February 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

Of course, that also begs the question, if Tequatl didn't give good loot, would it still be fun? I would bet most people wouldn't do it. They would just run off to the next world boss for good loot, which is apparently all the bosses and the activities in this game are for.

Everything in every mmo on this planet is connected to loot. Challenge and reward. Challange without reward is always waste of time, reward without challenge boring and not really rewarding. Fun is just a balance between those two.

Edited by Feathermoore, 11 February 2014 - 06:14 PM.
Moved in original conversation. Moved in with time stamp order though so added in the OP


#2 El Duderino

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 01:48 PM

View Postmaster21, on 11 February 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

Everything in every mmo on this planet is connected to loot. Challenge and reward. Challange without reward is always waste of time, reward without challenge boring and not really rewarding. Fun is just a balance between those two.

Maybe for you. I played GW1 more for the scenery and the enjoyment of the game than for loot.

#3 master21

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:16 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 11 February 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Maybe for you. I played GW1 more for the scenery and the enjoyment of the game than for loot.

Where I said loot?
Loot is one of the types of rewards. Ppl like to be rich, to look "elite", to have something other ppl can't afford/have/achieve.

And explain me enjoyment. You just run around watching pixels to have "enjoyment"?

Edited by master21, 11 February 2014 - 02:17 PM.


#4 Miragee

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:30 PM

View Postmaster21, on 11 February 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Where I said loot?
Loot is one of the types of rewards. Ppl like to be rich, to look "elite", to have something other ppl can't afford/have/achieve.

And explain me enjoyment. You just run around watching pixels to have "enjoyment"?

Uhm:

"Everything in every mmo on this planet is connected to loot. Challenge and reward. Challange without reward is always waste of time, reward without challenge boring and not really rewarding. Fun is just a balance between those two."

Maybe there? Could be mistaken, though.

#5 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:42 PM

View Postmaster21, on 11 February 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Where I said loot?
Loot is one of the types of rewards. Ppl like to be rich, to look "elite", to have something other ppl can't afford/have/achieve.

And explain me enjoyment. You just run around watching pixels to have "enjoyment"?
The only curious thing about that is that the graphics in GW2 are far better so he should enjoy it far more. :P The world is also bigger and more interconnected with zones actually being fleshed out instead of points on a map.

#6 master21

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:48 PM

View PostMiragee, on 11 February 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

Uhm:

"Everything in every mmo on this planet is connected to loot. Challenge and reward. Challange without reward is always waste of time, reward without challenge boring and not really rewarding. Fun is just a balance between those two."

Maybe there? Could be mistaken, though.

in MMO yes, in games on general I will call it reward.

You can't make mmo without any type of loot. MMO are just pimp my toon types of games. Ppl like to hunt treasure.

#7 Miragee

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:55 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 February 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

The only curious thing about that is that the graphics in GW2 are far better so he should enjoy it far more. :P The world is also bigger and more interconnected with zones actually being fleshed out instead of points on a map.

Graphic Design always beats Graphic Quality. "The world is bigger" is a straight lie. What do you mean with points?

View Postmaster21, on 11 February 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

in MMO yes, in games on general I will call it reward.

You can't make mmo without any type of loot. MMO are just pimp my toon types of games. Ppl like to hunt treasure.

So why do people play Shooter and Strategy Games again? You can make MMO's without loot, just not in MMORPG's because equiping your character is part of a RPG. And MMORPGs don't have to have loot as main factor. The gameplay itself should be rewarding enough and this can be through various different ways. For example:

- exploring (yes watching pixels, but more like exploring a scenery with unique feel that wouldn't be possible in the real world)
- facing challenge (be it in PvE or PvP)
- learning and diversify your characters (thorugh skill systems etc.)

This is going very off-topic. A mod might push these posts in a new thread alltogether as I think it's an important discussion.

#8 El Duderino

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:19 PM

View Postmaster21, on 11 February 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Where I said loot?
Loot is one of the types of rewards. Ppl like to be rich, to look "elite", to have something other ppl can't afford/have/achieve.

And explain me enjoyment. You just run around watching pixels to have "enjoyment"?

I suppose you don't like museums, eh?

#9 master21

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:19 PM

View PostMiragee, on 11 February 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Graphic Design always beats Graphic Quality. "The world is bigger" is a straight lie. What do you mean with points?
it's still just for first impression. Last 10 minutes. We play mmo for years.


Quote

So why do people play Shooter and Strategy Games again? You can make MMO's without loot, just not in MMORPG's because equiping your character is part of a RPG. And MMORPGs don't have to have loot as main factor. The gameplay itself should be rewarding enough and this can be through various different ways. For example:

- exploring (yes watching pixels, but more like exploring a scenery with unique feel that wouldn't be possible in the real world)
- facing challenge (be it in PvE or PvP)
- learning and diversify your characters (thorugh skill systems etc.)

This is going very off-topic. A mod might push these posts in a new thread alltogether as I think it's an important discussion.

reward in other games is different but it's still a reward. Beating hard content gives feel of achievment, the same with some headshot from miles away. You are proud of yourself.
If you would play those games with aimbot, so zero challenge everything you won't feel any reward. It would be just easy and boring.

as for the exploring. It's first time type of fun. After you've explored it's not fun anymore.
Challenge and learning in mmo games which last for years does not have the same amount of hype as you think. After you done something 10 times and mastered it you don't feel any challenge at all. You want to repeat it in mmo game only for it's reward in terms of loot.


View PostEl Duderino, on 11 February 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

I suppose you don't like museums, eh?

I like. For the first time. There is no fun at looking at same thing over and over again.  You've watched the same pixels for years and always get hype about them? Really?
It's like watching the same film every day. It's never ever fun.

#10 El Duderino

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:21 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 February 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

The only curious thing about that is that the graphics in GW2 are far better so he should enjoy it far more. :P The world is also bigger and more interconnected with zones actually being fleshed out instead of points on a map.

Wow, the graphics are far better? That is really pretty subjective. Also, I don't think the world is really bigger. It doesn't seem that way to me. I'll put GW1's scenery against GW2's all day long and I bet I get a good amount of people that appreciate the former over the latter.

View PostMiragee, on 11 February 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

Uhm:

"Everything in every mmo on this planet is connected to loot. Challenge and reward. Challange without reward is always waste of time, reward without challenge boring and not really rewarding. Fun is just a balance between those two."

Maybe there? Could be mistaken, though.

You took the words right out of my mouth!

#11 El Duderino

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:27 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 February 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

You think the graphics of GW1 are better than those of GW2? Just asking.

I think that the graphic quality is quite negligible. The styles are much different and I prefer GW1's. Although, this is quite off topic isn't it? People are going to great lengths to try and tell me that I can't enjoy the scenery and combat depth over phat loot farming.

The fact is that most people I find that still play this game are either way too casual to care about the atrocities added or just care about checklists and farming so much they could care less about the scenery or the shallowness of combat.

Edited by El Duderino, 11 February 2014 - 03:29 PM.


#12 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:30 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 11 February 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

I think that the graphic quality is quite negligible. The styles are much different and I prefer GW1's. Although, this is quite off topic isn't it? People are going to great lengths to try and tell me that I can't enjoy the scenery and combat depth over phat loot farming.

The fact is that most people I find that still play this game are either way too casual to care about the atrocities added or just care about checklists and farming so much they could care less about the scenery or the shallowness of combat.
I was just curious.

#13 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:08 PM

A continuation of a discussion from another thread opened to the public; the question is simply where the reward of the game and it's gameplay lies. Discuss loot, design value, end-game, etc.

#14 El Duderino

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:40 PM

Loot is obviously important in a game like an MMO. However, if you use loot as the reason for completing content, then it is just covering up problems.

My reason for bringing up the point of "would Teq. be fun without the loot?" is to simply ask the question if the underlying mechanics of the content are fun.

For example, someone mentioned that instead of talking about the encounter after killing Teq, the normal chatter is "where is the next world boss?" This is something I have had issue with since the beginning. The game seems to embrace the full concept of the themepark MMO mentality where the only reason to ride the rides is to get a reward at the end. The popularity of endless zergs training world bosses is proof enough of this. It's not that other ways of playing don't exist, but they are so detached from the rest of the game it is like playing two different games.

So, it's not that loot isn't important, it is that it needs to be important in the context of the rest of the game.

In GW2's regard, loot is really only good for people that want to train world bosses and/or maybe run dungeons. From someone who said I prefer challenge and the scenery, I was always able to enjoy these things while expecting reasonable loot from the game's predecessor. It wasn't specific encounters that were rewarding, but general areas that were rewarding both as challenging content, loot and beautiful scenery.

The problem I have with GW2 in regards to reward is that it is so focused on the checklist style of gaming: world bosses, dailies, monthlies, dungeons. It doesn't leave room for the truly casual player to just explore and enjoy the world without feeling left behind. Of course, part of that feeling left behind is the ever increasing power of gear and the very limited ways in which to secure that gear. Instead of trying to keep up, I quit playing.

Last, one of the things I truly lament from the PvE side (because let's face it, PvP is just a nightmare in this game) is the ability to have challenging solo farming. And, I don't think that can be fixed in a game where playing solo is the dominant way of playing - and not the exception.

#15 Gyre

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:41 PM

If you take Fractals as the highest rewarding content short of high value drops on Tequatl/Tri-Wurm there is still some horrendous RNG going on.  It's actually possible to run a 49, get 4 drops out of the end chest with not a single rare or core/lodestone and then get a non-infused ring or nothing at all in the daily bonus.  They have also very obviously nerfed the fractal weapon skin drop rate for some inconceivable reason.  This is an item you can't sell and is purely cosmetic so it's not even an economic issue it just comes off as malicious.  The one positive thing is that the exotic armor pieces you do get in there while not sellable often have insignias you can salvage off to pick up a few extra gold.

#16 Konzacelt

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 05:38 PM

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#17 RandolfRa

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:08 PM

I always liked to do events that spawn a merchant who sells some unique utility item. The items generally weren't overly useful, but quite fun. Too bad most of these fun items are no longer usable in dungeons or have ridiculous restrictions for them, and for no real reason. So that fun is gone.

#18 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 10:42 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 11 February 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Loot is obviously important in a game like an MMO. However, if you use loot as the reason for completing content, then it is just covering up problems.

My reason for bringing up the point of "would Teq. be fun without the loot?" is to simply ask the question if the underlying mechanics of the content are fun.
This is a very important insight. Take EVE Online - it also has "loot" (well, in-game money and resources) as rewards, but the fun part isn't cashing in, it's playing space captain, being part of a corp, doing all the stuff that the game lets you do, not getting rewarded for that stuff (which also is fun, of course).
GW2, just like WoW, is different. The gameplay is reward-driven. The clunky controls, weird camera management (despite attempts to fix it), uninspiring art and generally faceless and spammy play would not be enough to attract players if not for the loot.

#19 Featherman

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:14 AM

MOBAs, fighting games, and Starcraft offer competition and in well-designed competitive games the player needs no other motivation than improving and testing their skills against others in the community. SFII in the old days had people constantly shelling out quarters to play with no reward other than the competition and the community built around it.

Unlike competitive games, RPGs are designed to end at some point or another. The emphasis on progression through non-reducible equity in the form of stats and loot works best in games that have definite endings like a session of DnD, a FF or Dragon Quest. In these types of games the loot helps to add decision making or pacing throughout gameplay. Players are most likely not playing FF for the sake of finding rare loot, however, a sudden rare loot drop can change the way they approach challenges. This often works best when the loot or progression is unexpected and creatively designed, and has enough depth that the player is constantly discovering new things.

MMORPGs perverse this by making progression the impetus for gameplay rather than a tool for decision making. The fact that MMOs not designed creates power creep which has a great mny implications. The designers are rarely ever inclined reduce the player's accrued power, but seem to more than willing to shift the maxim. They'll do it because it's easy and it keeps the players hooked, challenge and decision making be damned. This is the kind of baggage GW2 was never able to subvert.

Edited by Featherman, 12 February 2014 - 03:16 AM.


#20 purper dawn

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:59 AM

as much as i like visiting the museum,i like robbing it more.
just so that i can go home and hear all my friends say: wow you really ocean 11nd that van gogh out of there!
so i guess in the end,it is the community where the reward is.

#21 Phineas Poe

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:19 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 11 February 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Maybe for you. I played GW1 more for the scenery and the enjoyment of the game than for loot.

And what if a part of your enjoyment playing the game is ... getting loot? You didn't go after minis, unique weapon skins, or elite armor at all? Guild Wars 1 was filled to the brim with cosmetic rewards. If you didn't make a point to pursue them, that's fine. But they most certainly existed. And many players did make a point to set themselves apart from the rest of the community going after things like chaos gloves.

I think there's a great deal of satisfaction found in obtaining epic gear. Diablo and Borderlands prove the popularity of that model. It's not about just living in and experiencing a world, but making a point to being a top tier player of the community, having the best armor and weapons. If that kind of playstyle doesn't draw you in, I understand, but loot is an integral part to playing RPGs for a lot of people, whether online or single-player. The idea behind a lot of RPGs is character development, not just in plot, but also in personal strength. Getting better gear is one facet of that development. It's not the only facet, but it still matters to a lot of people that their character's appearance shifts as they progress through the game.

I love a good plot, which is how FFXI sunk its teeth in and held me for several years---far longer than the loot grind of WoW. But I have to feel like my character is developing in some way in that process. I can't just be wearing the same crap I wore at level 1 and feel like I'm powerful. Having a legendary, having my Mini Tequatl or Mini Liadri, having a bunch of Living Story armor skins like the Gas Mask ... it's not about just experiencing the content for yourself and holding it close to your chest but showing it off to other players that you were there---that you're a more experienced player, and that my engineer is a way bigger badass than that guy that stumbled right out of saving Shaemoor. And it's just one of those things that just goes without saying, because my engineer's gear tells the story.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 12 February 2014 - 07:36 AM.


#22 Misty Six

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:42 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 February 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

This is a very important insight. Take EVE Online - it also has "loot" (well, in-game money and resources) as rewards, but the fun part isn't cashing in, it's playing space captain, being part of a corp, doing all the stuff that the game lets you do, not getting rewarded for that stuff (which also is fun, of course).
GW2, just like WoW, is different. The gameplay is reward-driven. The clunky controls, weird camera management (despite attempts to fix it), uninspiring art and generally faceless and spammy play would not be enough to attract players if not for the loot.

Exactly, the gameplay is reward driven. At least for me.. wvw is not fun enough, it's just zergfest boring shit. I don't feel motivated enough to play it. It feels like everything you do - at least in wvw - has no depth or meaning behind it. You don't feel like a part of something greater. This is the problem of the game. Why the ♥♥♥♥ do I care to be better than some other server? Don't care at all. It's boring. The scale needs to be toned down a bit.

If they would've stuck to the name - Guild Wars 2 - and implemented GvG in WvW instead of world vs world. Everything would be the same just guild vs guilds, not world vs worlds. Guilds conquering keeps, guild halls, forts, and so on. This would've stayed true to the name and would've been fun and exciting at the same time.

This would've been a true Guild Wars lol.. but instead of that, we have nothing.

#23 Phineas Poe

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:07 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 11 February 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Last, one of the things I truly lament from the PvE side (because let's face it, PvP is just a nightmare in this game) is the ability to have challenging solo farming. And, I don't think that can be fixed in a game where playing solo is the dominant way of playing - and not the exception.

And why exactly should a massively-multiplayer game encourage people to play alone?

Sure, when you start out leveling, solo-play is possible. And openly encouraged. This is to alleviate any frustrations while leveling, and allows you to play and explore at your own pace. But the game is ultimately designed to be played with friends, or with the idea in mind of making friends while leveling. And in dungeons and fractals, at Tequatl, in WvW, you're expected to cooperate with other players to complete content.

Solo-play is a very small focus of the game, and, if anything, is a less-than-optimal way to play the game at 80, done out of a heightened sense of challenge like soloing Lupicus in Arah. As an MMO, it doesn't really much make sense to create content that splinters the community. The only instance in my recollection where they encouraged solo play was the Queen's Gauntlet. But that was a show of individual player ability, and was still done in a way that promoted communal cooperation. Players learned from each other and revived them when they failed. So while you went at Liadri on your own, you had the support of those around you, which fostered a really fantastic experience that I recall fondly.

And while I don't think that Frostgorge, Queensdale, and Southsun Cove are really the best way to craft community-based farming content, I think they're more on the mark than having players compete for elemental spawns for cores and lodestones at the Promenade of the Gods in Cursed Shore or the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance in Malchor's Leap.

View PostMisty Six, on 12 February 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Exactly, the gameplay is reward driven. At least for me.. wvw is not fun enough, it's just zergfest boring shit. I don't feel motivated enough to play it. It feels like everything you do - at least in wvw - has no depth or meaning behind it. You don't feel like a part of something greater. This is the problem of the game. Why the ♥♥♥♥ do I care to be better than some other server? Don't care at all. It's boring. The scale needs to be toned down a bit.

If they would've stuck to the name - Guild Wars 2 - and implemented GvG in WvW instead of world vs world. Everything would be the same just guild vs guilds, not world vs worlds. Guilds conquering keeps, guild halls, forts, and so on. This would've stayed true to the name and would've been fun and exciting at the same time.

I don't think that World vs. World was meant to replace Guild Battles.

If I had to compare it to anything from GW1, it's a replacement of Alliance Battles and Competitive Missions (i.e., Fort Aspenwood). I think that's still a poor comparison, given it's PvP versus RvR-type content. The scale is large because it was intended to cater to a different playstyle for a different game. Similar to El Duderino's complaints above about GW2 not catering to solo play, the game didn't launch with GvG as it existed in GW1 probably because it wasn't in their interest to create an environment that fostered rivalries between guilds but instead create an environment that fostered rivalries between servers due to the larger scale nature of an MMO versus an instance-based online RPG.

GW1 was a different game. If we're going to draw comparisons to it, it should be taken under the consideration that GW2 was designed with different objectives and goals in mind. I'm sure GW1-esque GvG will at some point be added to sPvP, but I think it's pretty clear their priorities are currently elsewhere.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 12 February 2014 - 08:19 AM.


#24 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:11 AM

View PostMisty Six, on 12 February 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Exactly, the gameplay is reward driven. At least for me.. wvw is not fun enough, it's just zergfest boring shit. I don't feel motivated enough to play it. It feels like everything you do - at least in wvw - has no depth or meaning behind it. You don't feel like a part of something greater. This is the problem of the game.

This is exactly how I feel about open world PvE as well. I have one motivation to participate in it, and that is to gain materials for crafting that are otherwise inaccessible. It's an immense chore to do so though.

#25 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:19 AM

It's this exact issue that makes me believe that A.Net will be forced to raise the level cap and expand the current tier gears: the game simply does not work if you are not grinding rewards. As I said before, DEs aren't a replacement for quests: they are a replacement for killing trash. And killing trash only works as a reason to play the game if killing trash isn't the goal: you kill 10 rats to gain a level, not because killing 10 rats would be fun. So once you stop chasing the carrot, there's really nothing here to enjoy.

They either need to completely rework the game to give us intriguing content/mechanics so that we'll play it for the fun of it, or they need to embrace the power grind and go balls deep WoW on us. I don't want it to go all WoW-clone on us, but I honestly think it would be a better game if it did.

#26 Bryant Again

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:25 AM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 12 February 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

And why exactly should a massively-multiplayer game encourage people to play alone?


Because in the worst-case scenario, there'd at least be content to experience. It might not be good (though it could be), but it's better than outright 'dead' content. Mandatory group content can have a real low survival rate, and GW2's route of frequently adding new content doesn't help in the slightest.

Imagine GW1 without heroes. It'd sure give good 'incentive' to look for other players, but the entire game requires a full party of people, and having to find people for the billions of areas in the game would be a face shattering nightmare. As is, you can experience and complete 99% of GW1's PvE by yourself, 100% if you're willing to 8-man two 12-man dungeons. And I know, it's an entirely different game, but there's still a chance GW2 can have the same amount of longevity/replayability.

On top of all that, ANet has a pretty dang firm start with already have scaling systems in the game. Otherwise this entire idea of providing for solo gameplay wouldn't even come to my mind. Given time and effort they could provide with some more solid, more 'on-demand' gameplay that could stick around. Certainly not easy to do with their frequent update schedule, though. Probably why most of it is temporary, as well.

#27 turtledragon

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:39 AM

Reward is in the gemstore or from getting carried by a zerg of other players who know what they're doing.

#28 Phadde

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:24 AM

View Postmaster21, on 11 February 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:


Everything in every mmo on this planet is connected to loot. Challenge and reward. Challange without reward is always waste of time, reward without challenge boring and not really rewarding. Fun is just a balance between those two.

Why, yes. GW2 is designed around a reward of loot as an incentive. If something doesn't offer reasonable rewards, people tend to think of it as a waste of time which then makes the whole thing much less enjoyable for perhaps the majority of people. That's what I think anyways.


In GW2, if I'm not rewarded well enough I'll lose interest. The encounters themselves is not enough to stand on their own. I've done them all many times already (I mean, hell. Is 200 Fractals completed even considered as much at all?). What keeps me enjoying this game is new rewards on the horizon. Currently I'm working my way to 500 in Tailoring (worth mentioning is that I'm out of gold and don't have that much time to play) in order to craft the Shadow of Grenth backpiece. Then I'm going to save up money for CT3-shoulders and a Total Makeover Kit. Then I have the FotM achievement to complete and I'm 300 AP short to the next big reward chest.

If I didn't have these incentives, I would either have to find new ones or stop playing the game. The incentives is what creates a purpose and a drive to play the game, and it adds so much fun to the game.

#29 Phadde

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:30 AM

View Postturtledragon, on 12 February 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Reward is in the gemstore or from getting carried by a zerg of other players who know what they're doing.

You can choose to gain rewards by doing boring and tedious things, such as zerging events or repeating the same dungeon over and over by stacking. I prefer to have the option to work towards the goal/reward by playing the content that I like (at the moment a certain level of FotM) and gain fairly much the same for playing that content.

And the Gem Store is a really fair business-model (which is bloody needed to further develop the game). I don't quite see how some seem to despise it so much

Edited by Phadde, 12 February 2014 - 02:49 PM.


#30 nerfandderf

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 12:23 PM

View Postmaster21, on 11 February 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

OP quoted here




Everything in every mmo on this planet is connected to loot. Challenge and reward. Challange without reward is always waste of time, reward without challenge boring and not really rewarding. Fun is just a balance between those two.

I played for fun. I agreed with anets decision not to go VP and the motto play the way you want. That is why I bought the game.
Loot never entered the equation until they started in with DR ect then full on VP. I stopped playing. I had a great time up till that point.




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