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#1 MazingerZ

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:21 PM

https://forum-en.gui...velopment/first

Quote

Hey everyone,

For our upcoming CDI projects, we would like to collect your ideas for professions that need balancing. Since there are 8 professions, we would like to do one at a time and would like you to vote on which one comes first.

Please pick the three professions that you feel need the most help right now and list them in order of priority like so:

Example
  • Profession1 (this needs the most help by far)
  • Profession2 (this needs help, but not more than 1)
  • Profession3 (this needs help, but not more than 1 & 2)

Please keep your post to just your 3 votes. If you have any questions, you may ask them here as well.

We will collect the information at the end of the day tomorrow (5:00pm pacific), so make sure to get your vote in before then!

Thanks!

Engineer, Necro and Ranger showing representing consistently with Elementalist bringing up the rear.

Clever of them to do it this way.  Leaves them blameless for picking favorites.  It's just a CDI though, not a release, so I guess it'll be interesting to see whether that shakes out to order of improvements.

When WoW focused on its own class revamps, the order was arbitrary based largely on far in the pipe design and implementation were, which was equally affected by scale of need.

Tho its also interesting to see them do a CDI for the professions.  The bug lists for the top three have been known since launch.  To even carry a discussion beyond 'fix these first and let us see where they stand' is difficult.  If the classes aren't even functioning as intended, how can you analyze how effective they are and whether or not they actually need to be examined by design?

Edited by MazingerZ, 12 February 2014 - 11:23 PM.

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#2 Azure Skye

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:47 AM

Ele and ranger are the only ones that need love.

#3 El Duderino

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:55 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 13 February 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

Ele and ranger are the only ones that need love.

I think people fond of engineers might disagree with you.

#4 Azure Skye

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:07 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 13 February 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

I think people fond of engineers might disagree with you.
There are still viable builds for them.

#5 Arkham Creed

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:19 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 13 February 2014 - 02:07 AM, said:

There are still viable builds for them.

As a (former) engineer main I can say those are semi-viable gimmik builds. The top two being a static discharge DPS build (a build totally dependent on a single trait) and what I call "turret bombing." And the latter just shows the poor state of turrets; the whole point of a turret is that you set it up and it does its thing autonomously for at least a moderate duration, that is what a turret is. But turrets in GW2 are so piss poor nobody actually uses them as turrets, instead they use them to trigger blast finishers. They are remote detonated mines. Basically turrets have taken the place of the now removed beta-build Mine Kit utility skill.

I have issues with the thief (the first class I tried to main) and question some of the design decisions there, but the engineer is by a wide margin the most objectively broken profession in the whole game. There are a list of bugs number in the dozens (that is DOZENS; multiple dozens. At least but actually more than twenty-four) that have existed since beta. I'm not saying I don't like engineer; I'm saying outright it is a known fact that engineers are broken. Not poorly balanced. Not poorly designed (they are that too). But actually objectively BROKEN.

Edited by Arkham Creed, 13 February 2014 - 02:23 AM.


#6 StormDragonZ

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:31 AM

1- Ranger
2- Necromancer
3- Elementalist

Edited by StormDragonZ, 13 February 2014 - 02:32 AM.


#7 Azure Skye

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:38 AM

View PostArkham Creed, on 13 February 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

As a (former) engineer main I can say those are semi-viable gimmik builds. The top two being a static discharge DPS build (a build totally dependent on a single trait) and what I call "turret bombing." And the latter just shows the poor state of turrets; the whole point of a turret is that you set it up and it does its thing autonomously for at least a moderate duration, that is what a turret is. But turrets in GW2 are so piss poor nobody actually uses them as turrets, instead they use them to trigger blast finishers. They are remote detonated mines. Basically turrets have taken the place of the now removed beta-build Mine Kit utility skill.

I have issues with the thief (the first class I tried to main) and question some of the design decisions there, but the engineer is by a wide margin the most objectively broken profession in the whole game. There are a list of bugs number in the dozens (that is DOZENS; multiple dozens. At least but actually more than twenty-four) that have existed since beta. I'm not saying I don't like engineer; I'm saying outright it is a known fact that engineers are broken. Not poorly balanced. Not poorly designed (they are that too). But actually objectively BROKEN.
They've been broken since the start of the game and that profession has always been been a gimmick with turrets. They just need to release more weapon sets for the Engineer to make more viable. The ele and ranger traits are just fail all over!

Edited by Azure Skye, 13 February 2014 - 02:40 AM.


#8 Arkham Creed

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:48 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 13 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

They've been broken since the start of the game and that profession has always been been a gimmick with turrets. They just need to release more weapon sets for the Engineer to make more viable. The ele and ranger traits are just fail all over!

Wait, wait, wait....let me get this straight. Your argument for not prioritizing desperately needed engineer fixes in favor of elementalist and ranger (I currently main a ranger, so I'd love to see some improvements there mind you) is that engineers have been so badly broken for so long that everyone is just kind of used to it by now? I'm sorry; that is really, really stupid.

#9 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:50 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 13 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

They've been broken since the start of the game and that profession has always been been a gimmick with turrets. They just need to release more weapon sets for the Engineer to make more viable. The ele and ranger traits are just fail all over!

That's kind of my point, how do you dictate priority when there are classes that just don't work as intended?  What bugs are there for Elementalists holding them back?  From what you say, it sounds like design more than bugs.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
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#10 Nesiko

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:53 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 13 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

They've been broken since the start of the game and that profession has always been been a gimmick with turrets. They just need to release more weapon sets for the Engineer to make more viable. The ele and ranger traits are just fail all over!
Basically what I think they should do for Engineer is no different then the goons hanging around Scarlet. Most of them are pretty much engineers. It's a slap in the face to what a real engineer should  be. Not what the Arena Net forces players to be.

Ele, I have no comments yet.
Mesmers, more aoes basically.
Ranger, all I know is from Arkham is basically the pets.
Thief, I did dig the concept. But the problem with them is, they are a one-hit and they out. I know they are suppose to be get in and get out concept. But they should be to have more of a backbone to them. Or more offense as defense.

#11 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:54 AM

1. Engineer.
2. Elementalist.
3. Ranger.
3. Necromancer.

#12 El Duderino

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:37 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 13 February 2014 - 02:07 AM, said:

There are still viable builds for them.

Is that what we have come to in this game? To accept mediocrity and as long as there are viable builds, then they don't need love? I would say the engineer needs far more love than the elementalist personally.

#13 Phineas Poe

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:42 AM

I actually think that engineers are in a pretty good place right now in both PvE and PvP. I imagine most players that are voting engineer are doing it purely because of turrets needing a pretty considerable overhaul.

#14 Azure Skye

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:54 AM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 13 February 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

I actually think that engineers are in a pretty good place right now in both PvE and PvP. I imagine most players that are voting engineer are doing it purely because of turrets needing a pretty considerable overhaul.
that is what i've been seeing. Nothing major as the ranger and ele. I don't even know why the necro is there to begin with.

Edited by Azure Skye, 13 February 2014 - 03:55 AM.


#15 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:08 AM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 13 February 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

I actually think that engineers are in a pretty good place right now in both PvE and PvP. I imagine most players that are voting engineer are doing it purely because of turrets needing a pretty considerable overhaul.

Turrets don't even work as intended.  There are documented bugs with their overcharge, last time I checked.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#16 sanctuaire

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:43 AM

pve-wise,

ranger,
thief,
engineer

#17 Phenn

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:19 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 13 February 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

that is what i've been seeing. Nothing major as the ranger and ele. I don't even know why the necro is there to begin with.

The Necro needs the most help of any class. One maybe two viable builds in PvP means nothing for a class that's got a list of defective or useless traits that's longer than the list of useable traits. One entire traitline is worthless in PvE. Fully half of the utilities never see playtime, and the new heal is a joke that no-one's laughing at. From someone that's played the class since beta, for what it's worth.

#18 nerfandderf

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:18 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 13 February 2014 - 02:50 AM, said:

That's kind of my point, how do you dictate priority when there are classes that just don't work as intended?  What bugs are there for Elementalists holding them back?  From what you say, it sounds like design more than bugs.
That is the thing. Anet chooses to ignore rather than deal with or fix the issue.
Look at the new pick controversy. Or in the old CDI where people say that basically they only communicate in CDI which leads to absolutely nothing. Like the WvW one and how they got 0 of what was promised or the revamp command tag.

Why not have all the professions actually functioning at 100% before asking what needs help?

Edited by nerfandderf, 16 February 2014 - 11:21 AM.


#19 Brandon the Don

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:20 AM

View PostPhenn, on 13 February 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

The Necro needs the most help of any class. One maybe two viable builds in PvP means nothing for a class that's got a list of defective or useless traits that's longer than the list of useable traits. One entire traitline is worthless in PvE. Fully half of the utilities never see playtime, and the new heal is a joke that no-one's laughing at. From someone that's played the class since beta, for what it's worth.

Don't forget the Deathshroud UI bug that has been there for a freaking year...

Though a top three is imho bullshitty... There is no way you can prioritize classes like this without making the others feel completely neglected, aside from not being picked by the community...

#20 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:23 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 13 February 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

1. Engineer.
2. Elementalist.
3. Ranger.
3. Necromancer.

1. Necro
2. Necro
3. Necro
3.5 Other shit

That thread broke my heart. T_T ... Poor Charr Necros

#21 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:31 PM

Top 3 professions needing help:

1. open world encounter designer
2. trait and skill balance committee member
3. Living Story writer

#22 Robsy128

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:32 PM

1. Warrior.
2. Guardian.
3. Mesmer.

And on a serious note:

1. Engineers because they're pretty useless right now.
2. Necromancers because they have one or two viable PvE builds.
3. Rangers and their pets. The pets last for about 2 seconds and then die... which is pretty shocking considering they're a large portion of your overall dps.

#23 shanaeri rynale

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:08 PM

IMHO they are asking the right question at the wrong time.

Numerous professions have some pretty major bugs that really should be sorted out before asking what professions need the most TLC.

I'd like to bet most of the ranger, Mesmer and necro responses are due to bugs not being fixed rather than any need to rebalance the profession.

I.e Get the bugs and issues sorted out before embarking on balancing. Otherwise you're working on the faulty premise that the core mechanics of each profession is 'working as advertised'

#24 Brandon the Don

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:16 PM

View Postshanaeri rynale, on 13 February 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

IMHO they are asking the right question at the wrong time.

Numerous professions have some pretty major bugs that really should be sorted out before asking what professions need the most TLC.

I'd like to bet most of the ranger, Mesmer and necro responses are due to bugs not being fixed rather than any need to rebalance the profession.

I.e Get the bugs and issues sorted out before embarking on balancing. Otherwise you're working on the faulty premise that the core mechanics of each profession is 'working as advertised'

Exactly, as it stands now, the post of the official forums are riddled with people who base their conclusions on the fact that their classes are bugged in PvP (and class popularity mind you)...

Prioritizing 3 classes out of all the broken or bugged skills/traits/utilities seems wrong to me...

... side note, they could've been a bit specific on what level in the game as well... PvP? WvWvW? PvE? All? Then again, Anet and splitting those...

#25 Nikephoros

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:22 PM

That's an odd list.

Ranger, I will agree with.  They are currently non-entitites in PvP and the Sword auto attack quirks prevent them from being tier 1 in PvE.

Necro is extremely powerful in PvP, though with some glaring weaknesses that good players can exploit, and extremely weak in PvE.

Engineer is the weird one.   They are extremely powerful in PvP and extremely underrated in PvE.  Among the top PvE pllayers/theorycrafters is it understood that Engineers' access to Vulnerability, Stealth, Might stacking, water field, etc make them one of the best all around utility characters.  The problem is you don't see them in speed run records because in those type of runs you don't want an all-rounder, you want ultra specific choices.  So there is an impression they are subpar, when in fact most pugs would be significantly better off with Engineer #1 than Warrior #3.

My list would have to be split among PvE and PvP...

PvP

1.  Elementalist
2.  Ranger
3.  ?? (I dunno the other classes seem to be in reasonable shape)

PvE

1.  Necro (by light years)
2.  Ranger (one change away on the auto attack for Sword from being the #2 PvE class)
3.  ??? (the other classes are in reasonable shape)

#26 Conkers

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:40 PM

View PostAzure Skye, on 13 February 2014 - 02:07 AM, said:

There are still viable builds for them.

It rather depends upon which part of the game you are talking about.

In tPvP, ele is in the worst state, but on the other had spirit ranger is far better than any engy build, whcih is why they are in most PvP teams, where as engy is poorly represented.

In WvW large group, ranger is probably in need of the most help, but then engy, thief and even mesmer (being a veilbot is not fun) could all do with a boost on that basis, whilst Ele is one of the four classes most desired.

For PvE I'd say the problem is not eles, engies, or rangers, it is the poor way in which the content is designed and that certain classes (warriro/guard) need bringing down.

Then outside of content types, if I look at bugs, thgins that need to be fixed then engy & ranger probably need the most attention.

But anyway back to the topic:

1 - engies
2 - rangers
3 - necro

All ele needs is something for tPvP, but then a large part of that is that thief needs significant changes, because it basically keeps any other class out from roaming / glass cannon, this especially effects ele & mesmer.

#27 Phineas Poe

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:28 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 13 February 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Engineers because they're pretty useless right now.

On the PvE side of things, engineers are the best vulnerability stackers in the game. And under the same build they can permanently maintain 15 stacks of might for their party, cleanse up to 5 conditions every 10 seconds off allies, and stack up to 15 seconds of stealth to skip whenever necessary. You think that is "useless?"

On the PvP side of things, engineers are one of the best bunker classes right now that can simultaneously decap nodes in 1vX situations. We can slot a knockback/pull skill on every slot on our bar, which makes engineers an apt class to roll with inside the Edge of the Mists with its pitfalls, cliffs, and ledges.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 13 February 2014 - 03:29 PM.


#28 Senatic

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:38 PM

What's the problems with eles? I've mained a ele since launch, they're pretty much required for any speedrun team where their capabilities in dps and fury/might stacking is unmatched. Fiery Greatsword alone make them one of the best dps'ers in PvE.

Rangers are also a required class for a max dps team, the only thing needs looking over there is the broken sword auto attack.

Go look at Engis/Necros, those two classes are so worthless in PvE I haven't touched them more than for ori farming for over a year now.

Edited by Senatic, 13 February 2014 - 03:44 PM.


#29 Phineas Poe

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:42 PM

View PostSenatic, on 13 February 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

What's the problems with eles? I've mained a ele since launch, they're pretty much required for any speedrun team where their capabilities in dps and fury/might stacking is unmatched.

When was the last time you saw an elementalist on a tourney-winning team in PvP?

#30 Senatic

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:45 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 13 February 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

When was the last time you saw an elementalist on a tourney-winning team in PvP?
The better question is, who the hell cares about PvP. It's dead and burried long ago.




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