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Friendly fire


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#1 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:07 PM

I know I have brought this up before but I have a new take on it and was wondering what people think of it.

So friendly fire is when an attack you make damages characters on your own side. Nothing too hard to understand there. Whether this happens only for explicit AoE, or also for cleaves and even single target attacks, is open to discussion. Naturally whatever happens for negative effects should also apply to positive effects, so that just as if friendlies are damaged by a condition AoE, enemies should also be buffed by a boon AoE.

This has a number of benefits. It makes combat a lot more challenging as you need to consider the position of your allies with respect to your enemies, as well as your own position. It's much more realistic. And it prevents the cheesy zerg behavior that's currently dumbing down the game and forces people to communicate with one another and work together.

The disadvantage that has been noted is that it's a mechanic which can easily be abused to grief other players, which is an extremely important consideration. If people can think of other disadvantages I would love to hear them (not just that some professions use more AoE than others, since it's about using the skills you have judiciously). My first position on this was that griefing using other measures already has a way to be penalized (by reporting), but I concede that it might be hard to prove intent in many cases.

I thought of another way that griefing using friendly fire could be penalized, and that is to do it automatically using XP. That is, if you kill an ally, you lose a significant amount of XP, maybe something like ten or fifty times as much as you would gain by killing an enemy.

Firstly, this means that the would-be griefer rapidly loses his ability to harass others since they will quickly become a lower level than their targets. Also there is a risk that by killing friendlies they will lose their own survivability in an area (higher level mobs will wipe the floor with them).

Secondly, they may not be able to equip their own gear that they worked hard to obtain since the gear exceeds their level (I'm not saying they should become naked visually but any stats on the gear, including armor, shouldn't be applied). Also they may lose skill slots. This would be a major concern for the would-be griefer.

With respect to characters at max level: if you lose a level at this point on your XP bar, you will go down to 79 no matter how many times you have "hit 80 again" and it transferred into a skill point. This prevents extremely experienced characters from abusing the system.

Possible problem with this solution: at the bottom end of the level scale a determined PITA could try to camp newbie grounds waiting for level 1 characters to spawn and gank them since they wouldn't be able to be penalized lower than level 1. I propose that their gear would be damaged at this point and they wouldn't have any skills to harm others. They could repair, but it would slow them down at least enough for them to get reported and banned since it would be pretty obviously griefing at that point.

Are there other problems with this I haven't thought of?

#2 Desild

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:12 PM

Or maybe just leave everything as it is and take it as an acceptable break from reality?

I mean, friendly fire? Really? You want AoE to damage us aswell? We're already clusterbombed with AoE by bosses, and some encounters can only be completed by blasting everything around us, and you want penalties added to that?

#3 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:20 PM

View PostDesild, on 13 February 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

I mean, friendly fire? Really? You want AoE to damage us aswell? We're already clusterbombed with AoE by bosses, and some encounters can only be completed by blasting everything around us, and you want penalties added to that?

Yes. You will note that boss AoE will apply equally to the boss.

Although I do see your point, maybe there could be "easy mode" servers.

#4 Andemius

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:20 PM

Still a bad idea imo.

I'm not gonna list the usual arguments against, since I'm pretty sure we're all aware of them.

However, the anti-griefing system you suggested will end up as an annoyance to legitimate players rather than deterring greifers. Just imagine combo fields, and the general state of WvW if friendly fire (and enemy boon control) was implemented. Zerging isn't brilliant, but its the only way to take certain objectives.

#5 Robsy128

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:24 PM

Friendly fire should really only be an option in custom PvP games. We definitely don't want it in PvE and we can't have it in WvW simply because people are stupid and zerg.

#6 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:26 PM

View PostAndemius, on 13 February 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

I'm not gonna list the usual arguments against, since I'm pretty sure we're all aware of them.

I'm not, and that's what I asked for.

Just to clarify: I am asking what the problems are with this solution, and what other issues there are that have not been taken into account above.

#7 Nikephoros

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:40 PM

Yet another topic about the evils of zerker/dps/stacking/melee/organization/tactics/warriors/lolcats.

#8 Echou

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:25 PM

....Wow. Friendly Fire on an MMO like this must be one of the worst ideas ever.

-Field Combos become obsolete since fields do friendly damage
-Warhorns inflict conditions on your allies
-Mesmers (Null Field etc.)
-Fear Me
+1000 other problems.

#9 JACK the Somnolent

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:31 PM

I don't know how often you play dungeons and fractals, so I'll assume you're quite experienced with them. As you know, some fights and trash are impossibly hard to clear without stacking. If you introduce FF then stacking is no longer and option.

As far as anti-griefing, people would try to get killed by party members so that others would lose XP. Sorry FF is a bad idea for GW2 or any MMO. Let it go.

#10 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:51 PM

View PostEchou, on 13 February 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

-Field Combos become obsolete since fields do friendly damage

I don't see this. Several fields don't do damage at all. You can shoot stuff through fields without having to be in them. And if you do have to be inside it for some short range field combo, you can move out of it again.

Quote

-Warhorns inflict conditions on your allies
-Mesmers (Null Field etc.)
-Fear Me

Right, so you need to coordinate with your support to protect your side.

Quote

+1000 other problems.

Which are?

View PostJACK the Somnolent, on 13 February 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

I don't know how often you play dungeons and fractals, so I'll assume you're quite experienced with them. As you know, some fights and trash are impossibly hard to clear without stacking. If you introduce FF then stacking is no longer and option.

This is a bit like saying that you can't invent the automobile because the roads are already used by horses and carts. If you change a major mechanic then you also need to change the content to rebalance it for the mechanic, that's a given. This also applies to skills and traits that would just blow you up.

Quote

As far as anti-griefing, people would try to get killed by party members so that others would lose XP.

I hadn't thought of that. People really can be perverse. I can't see how they could reliably do so though, you're not going to 1-shot them. Plus they're going to lose time and gold by doing so, I don't see the motivation.

#11 Nikephoros

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:54 PM

Most people are giving you negative feedback on this idea because it is a horrible solution to something that really isn't a problem in the first place, if you didn't get that.

#12 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:01 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 13 February 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

Most people are giving you negative feedback on this idea because it is a horrible solution to something that really isn't a problem in the first place, if you didn't get that.

It's one of the biggest problems of immersion in MMOs. And if it's a horrible solution, then why? And what would be better?

#13 Commandchild

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:01 PM

So warrior warhorn would cripple allies and apply swiftness to them at the same time? Seems like a useful idea. Hope your Anet internship goes well.

#14 Commandchild

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:11 PM

View PostBeyond Freedom, on 13 February 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

It's one of the biggest problems of immersion in MMOs. And if it's a horrible solution, then why? And what would be better?

Immersion at the end of the day is the responsibility of the player. The developer needs to focus on good gamrplay. Ignoring that, I'd argue that most of the townclothes, backpacks, finishers, the giant tidal waves that water fields make, warrior banners that drop from the skies, and anything that players say who arent on Tarniahed Coast are more immersion breaking than cleaves not hitting people nearby.  People have told you several times why it's a horrible solution, the problem is you are ignoring them. The better solution would be to realize you are the problem, not the game. If you are having a hard time with immersion, wear a cape and helmet when you play.

#15 Andemius

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:12 PM

View PostBeyond Freedom, on 13 February 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

I don't see this. Several fields don't do damage at all. You can shoot stuff through fields without having to be in them. And if you do have to be inside it for some short range field combo, you can move out of it again.

Lets talk about water fields and blasting them.

There's 8 skills which don't cause damage or any other negative effects which have a blast finisher. Of these, only 3 are not "plant banner".

So, unless you're using one of those 3 skills, blasting a water field for heals becomes redundant as you're either doing damage, cc, or inflicting conditions on those in the field.

#16 master21

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:24 PM

Friendly fire works well is shooters, not in rpg "magic" styles.
Still problems:
- First you need to redesign everything. Skill, fights, bosses, even maps. There are too much aoe, cleave and lack of space.
- it will kill melee fight. You can't be in melee because
a) you can hit other ppl in melee
B) all range players will damage you
c) because of it you need to redesign everything
- it change "stacking" which is some form of formation to "spread" all over on wvwvw and other high scale events. It kills any tactic there with frontliners. It will change fights to some type of shooter. 50 player vs 50 players. It's pure freaking chaos and you want to just hide instead of be in fight.

I really can't see any good thing with friendly fire in guild wars. If you goal is to brake this game, maybe it could work.

#17 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:24 PM

View PostCommandchild, on 13 February 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

So warrior warhorn would cripple allies and apply swiftness to them at the same time?

I don't actually see anything immersion breaking about an effect that inspires allies and simultaneously demotivates enemies. I'm not saying that every skill would work the exact same way as it does at the moment with respect to boons and conditions.

View PostAndemius, on 13 February 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

Lets talk about water fields and blasting them.

There's 8 skills which don't cause damage or any other negative effects which have a blast finisher. Of these, only 3 are not "plant banner".

So, unless you're using one of those 3 skills, blasting a water field for heals becomes redundant as you're either doing damage, cc, or inflicting conditions on those in the field.

This combo is pretty contrived and unintuitive, I'd be happy to see it go away.

#18 Kymeric

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:52 PM

You'd have to remove leap finishers, since they require you to either start or finish in a friendly AoE.

You'd also have to give more single target attacks.  This game is lousy with AoE from targeted circles to cleaves.  Restrict those, and many, if not all, professions would be locked into a tiny fraction of their available skills.

I think what you're missing, Beyond Freedom, is not that friendly fire isn't workable, but that it's not workable in GW2 without an overhaul so massive it might as well be rebuilding the game from scratch.

#19 Krazzar

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:17 PM

Well this is one way to stop melee zerkers, or melee altogether. Bad idea or bad trolling, I can't decide which.

#20 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:50 PM

View Postmaster21, on 13 February 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Friendly fire works well is shooters, not in rpg "magic" styles.

It worked pretty well in Neverwinter Nights, which is about as "RPG magic style" as it gets.

View PostKymeric, on 13 February 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

I think what you're missing, Beyond Freedom, is not that friendly fire isn't workable, but that it's not workable in GW2 without an overhaul so massive it might as well be rebuilding the game from scratch.

I think that rebuilding the combat system and traits from scratch is a given at any rate. That would probably be a good thing considering how poorly designed they are. This is a big part of the game, sure, but by no means the whole thing. If it were, I'd have stopped playing it long ago.

Edited by Beyond Freedom, 13 February 2014 - 05:52 PM.


#21 d_fens

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:18 PM

Just no !

#22 RandolfRa

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:29 PM

Unfortunately it would not work with the current mechanics. I have roamed with several cross server groups in WvW, and despite most of us being thieves (daggers do not cleave), it is still very difficult to avoid hitting allies. It could work with better targeting system and a general overhaul of the game though.

Edited by RandolfRa, 13 February 2014 - 08:37 PM.


#23 Kattar

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:31 PM

So basically no melee classes then?

You are fooling yourself, user. Nothing here is what it seems. ANet is not the plucky hero, Guru is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena.



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#24 Epixors

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:38 PM

View PostKattar, on 13 February 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

So basically no melee classes then?

No, we should use a shield to actively defend ourselves against our allies. Because that is immersive.

#25 d_fens

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:43 PM

ANet should give us some kind of spear when fighting on the ground, so we can form phalanx formation. !00% guarantee not to hit your friends in melee. Just stand still and jab this nasty slug of ooze :P

#26 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:05 PM

It's not all doom and gloom: http://www.rockpaper...oid-in-magicka/

#27 master21

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:06 PM

View PostBeyond Freedom, on 13 February 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

It worked pretty well in Neverwinter Nights, which is about as "RPG magic style" as it gets.

So play it.

Quote

I think that rebuilding the combat system and traits from scratch is a given at any rate. That would probably be a good thing considering how poorly designed they are. This is a big part of the game, sure, but by no means the whole thing. If it were, I'd have stopped playing it long ago.

For me it's not poor design. For me elders scrolls online combat if poor design.
Also games where attacking = staying in place are poor design. Fight does not work that way.

We have in mass effect 3 multi the same topic. Add friendly fire to game. It would be so much fun.
No it won't be. Instead of total destroyment of everything, pure rage, pure unload everything and have huge smile of face we had some another call of duty clone with campers all over the place and ppl hidden in bushes.

Please stop trying to change game into another game. Just change game.

#28 RandolfRa

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:18 PM

View Postmaster21, on 13 February 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

bla bla bla
The topic discusses on whether if friendly fire could work in Guild Wars 2. Differend arguments are made. Someone says "It worked pretty well in Neverwinter Nights.", pointing out that such system can work if done well. Then you respond to him "So play it". Good job, dude.

Edited by RandolfRa, 13 February 2014 - 09:21 PM.


#29 master21

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:20 PM

View PostRandolfRa, on 13 February 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

The topic discusses on whether if friendly fire could work in Guild Wars 2. Differend arguments are made. Someone says "It worked pretty well in Neverwinter Nights.", pointing out that such system can work. Then you respond to him "Then go play it". Good job, dude.

Racing works in Forza. Add it to guild wars 2 now!

#30 RandolfRa

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:33 PM

View Postmaster21, on 13 February 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

Racing works in Forza. Add it to guild wars 2 now!
Let's see.

You: Friendly fire works well in shooters, not in rpg "magic" styles.
Beyond Freedom: It worked pretty well in Neverwinter Nights, which is about as "RPG magic style" as it gets.

Truth is that you just tried to dodge his counter argument.

Edited by RandolfRa, 13 February 2014 - 09:33 PM.





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