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Do You Consider GW2 to be a "DPS Race"?


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#1 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:15 PM

Considering the playstyles and management of damage it is easy to get this impression for players but I want to know whether it is reasoned or not. Do you believe it is a DPS Race? Why or why not? Are there any Timers that you feel may be a bit too stringent for any given events?

#2 master21

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:38 PM

Yes and No.

A lot of fights does not have timer and boss does not change behavior. Dps just make fight shorter.

Second is something like timer or "inceasing difficulty".
Still there fights with some type of enrage time or mechanic which is harder with longer fight. Mostly in new content.

Duo boss fight with ooze on aetherblade. Even with perfect ooze luring it's hard to don't stack those dots. Longer fight, more dots, more damage - > harder.
Molten duo fotm bosses. 1 part maybe not that much, amount of aoe and attacks is stable, but second part with cirle arena which get smaller is some kind of enrage timer. Less space -> harder to avoid.

Events like wurm and tequatl has timers. For tequatl is fair for wurm not that much. Wurms requires coordination and very high dps, so all those embers, conjure weapons etc. It for now looks like it was even made that way with those dps buffs in mind.

There is also third type of this. Bosses which has phases or mechanics which can be skipped by high amount of dps. You can with nice reflect just skip 2nd (or even kill ) lupi phase.

So yes, probably even most of the time fights are some kind of dps race, either to skip something or make it easier or just make it faster.

I can really think about  2 fights with very small dps race. Fractal Maw, and Main Trin. First is crystal collective, second is survive that barrage.

#3 Phadde

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:07 PM

It is mostly a DPS race, and that's by design... It's intended, and the evidence is that there are barely any fights which encourages anything but pure damage and it's fairly easy to create encounters that do.

Just look at the two other parts of the combat: Control and Support. There is virtually no emphasis on those in PvE.

#4 ilr

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:26 PM

Having collected over 2000 Orr & COE tokens, by fighting generally the most interesting & challenging Bosses you'll find in any of the dungeons, wearing everything from Clerics to a mix of Sents & Valks to straight up Zerker, I can say with definite certainty that the game generally is not...

...anything other-than a 100% total DPS race :P


Not being a smartass here,  literally, ALL of your total party damage mitigation, comes down to just plain killing IT, before it kills all of you.  The few or only exceptions to this was where every single member of my party was so bad that I ended up Soloing the Boss for them which is even more boring to watch and more than a few times I'd just take the Repair hit by suiciding or getting out of combat to let them all rez and walk of shame their way back to the fight until they got it right.

Again, the issue here, is and always will be:  Not just damage application, but the fact that the fastest damage application, also doubles as total Damage mitigation for your party the shorter you can cut every fight down to, with the added bonus of making everything a speed clear.   In Gw1 it wasn't common, but there WERE mechanics that existed, that would stop this.  Damage reflection, Prot-Spirit and mark of Protection (which hardmode Stone Summit LOVED to use to make their dolyaks or sages unkillable for knuckle dragging DPS spammers). Or juust the crazy crap Shiro & Mallyx pulled.   So in that regard, Gw1 had it all figured out b/c it could actually make fights take LONGER if all you did was DPS.  This is Gw2's #1 failing in Combat... the fact that universal DPS templates are always the only Answer to every single speed clear

Edited by ilr, 16 February 2014 - 11:30 PM.


#5 ObscureThreat

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:31 PM

GW2 is the most blatant example of a game where almost all encounters are just a DPS race. There is no boss/encounter in PVE where DPS is not only the best strategy but most of the time the only viable strategy also.

#6 sanctuaire

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:40 AM

its not a race in terms of timers,

but gameplay-wise in pve,
its just purely DPS.

.

#7 Trei

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 01:59 AM

DPS yes, if you only consider Efficiency.
I do not always equate Efficiency with Fun, however.

I prefer to muck around with different tactics;
So what if it takes an hour more to complete something as long my group's expectations are congruent?

I'm no pro, nor do I prefer to play with pros or those who think they are.
Making it with a ragtag team of random spontaneous players I have never played with before feels far more challenging than simply trying to go for the fastest this or that, day in day out.

Efficiency... is for my day job.

Edited by Trei, 17 February 2014 - 02:01 AM.


#8 turbo234

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 02:00 AM

Not a dps race but dps focused. There really isn't an alternative. I always say with gw1 it was about strategy. With gw2, it's faceroll dps.

#9 Gyre

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 02:44 AM

View PostObscureThreat, on 16 February 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

GW2 is the most blatant example of a game where almost all encounters are just a DPS race. There is no boss/encounter in PVE where DPS is not only the best strategy but most of the time the only viable strategy also.

Here you go, can pretty much lock the thread after this comment.

Try some high level fractals out and you'll see that either you kill them fast or you just open up more opportunities for party wipe.  Bunkering/fullrange is a painful and time wasting strategy when most things can simply overwhelm your ability to heal/mitigate and you'll wind up dead regardless.

#10 El Duderino

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 02:47 AM

Considering that the intention was to move from a skill based game modeled after MtG to an action based game - then yes - I think that DPS is the primary focus. I think that this move is part of the problem of why we don't see conditions or control and support as much as just pure DPS. First, they aren't really used by enemies, but more importantly, those things aren't really important in action type games. It's like they were leftover from GW1 because they didn't think they could fully get rid of them. Kind of like the use of relatively insignificant numbers and stats that we talked about before.

I think that it is an inherent part of trying to make it action based that the focus is so clearly on DPS and that perhaps they should have never even tried to add other types of damage or roles to the game except direct damage.

#11 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:39 AM

What makes this different than any other game? I thought about it for a while and I cannot think of a game of this particular genre that isn't just some form of DPS race; even with presented tanks and walls it is more or less the same with just longer windows for the eventual.

#12 Bryant Again

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:15 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 17 February 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

What makes this different than any other game? I thought about it for a while and I cannot think of a game of this particular genre that isn't just some form of DPS race; even with presented tanks and walls it is more or less the same with just longer windows for the eventual.

This is pretty much any game with combat being it's emphasis. At that point it's just comparing the combat to the combat in other games.

I guess I'm not really sure what you're asking?

#13 master21

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:06 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 17 February 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

What makes this different than any other game? I thought about it for a while and I cannot think of a game of this particular genre that isn't just some form of DPS race; even with presented tanks and walls it is more or less the same with just longer windows for the eventual.

This

Every game with numeric damage model is all about damage at the end.
Starting from diablo ending on borderlands.

It's all about balancing surv for your own personal taste and max damage (and avoiding overkill).

#14 Veji

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:21 AM

And then theres WvW, which is not a DPS race.

#15 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:43 PM

View PostBryant Again, on 17 February 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

I guess I'm not really sure what you're asking?
I asked because I read the above and in no uncertain terms people made it sound as if it was surprising or different. The damage mitigation in a game has always been "kill it!", the role of the tank is to just prolong your window to do so; whereas another person called it blatant but I couldn't figure out what game isn't blatant and open about it's DPS presence. Quite a few games even have your damage in DPS format telling you the average of a weapon and your set-up rather than a range.

I guess in putting together what other people said it made me sit back and think to myself that there really is no difference between these systems. The comparisons between this game and other games and their "strategic mechanics" seems sort of hollow; how does one make "this" race better than "that" race?

I've yet to figure that out.

#16 El Duderino

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 02:45 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 17 February 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

What makes this different than any other game? I thought about it for a while and I cannot think of a game of this particular genre that isn't just some form of DPS race; even with presented tanks and walls it is more or less the same with just longer windows for the eventual.

This is true, but in GW2, especially PvE, there is not enough rock, paper, scissor interactions to create anything that would be optimal other than rock vs. rock.

The best way to play is to DPS through everything as quickly as possible. DPS is both offense and defense in this game.

I think that is an integral part to why I dislike the combat so much in this game and why the zerker meta is what it is - DPS is not just an offensive weapon, it is also a defensive strategy. You are better off trading for more DPS than for more defense in this game.

So, yes, while every game eventually ends up being "who can kill the other guy first" it doesn't mean that straight DPS is the best way to do it. And that is why this is a DPS race more than other games and part of the reason why it feels so off compared to other games.

#17 Nikephoros

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:25 PM

Most Legendary bosses have way higher DPS than your party does relative to each other's health pools.  Therefore if you try to kill them without trying to actively mitigate their damage, you will lose almost every time.  Thus, the game is a damage avoidance game of which one piece is having good enough DPS to kill before your mitigation skills/dodges/utilities run out.

#18 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:41 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 17 February 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

This is true, but in GW2, especially PvE, there is not enough rock, paper, scissor interactions to create anything that would be optimal other than rock vs. rock.

The best way to play is to DPS through everything as quickly as possible. DPS is both offense and defense in this game.

I think that is an integral part to why I dislike the combat so much in this game and why the zerker meta is what it is - DPS is not just an offensive weapon, it is also a defensive strategy. You are better off trading for more DPS than for more defense in this game.

So, yes, while every game eventually ends up being "who can kill the other guy first" it doesn't mean that straight DPS is the best way to do it. And that is why this is a DPS race more than other games and part of the reason why it feels so off compared to other games.
DPS is always offense and defense in all games of this type. "Aggro"-tactics are nothing more than a spicy salt and overhealing / outhealing damage is again nothing more than a little zest to a clearly obvious system of clocking numbers. I guess removing the veil is what's so upsetting; it makes the rest of the same system seem so ... bland. After listening to a lot of people talk about GW2 and it's depths, shallowness, and failings I went back to the beginning and threw on some other games and MMOs and realized it was the same thing. Not only that it was the same thing with more frivolous options, wrong paths, and almost outright "tricks" in what is and isn't valuable. And it was all permanent. It was a punishment for "not knowing". It took many levels to make up for your "bad behavior" and "poor choices". That's what made guides so popular to begin with; it was a war of attrition if you screwed up. You had to grind 5 levels for that "second chance".

This and end-game in all games looks exactly the same. "Get the best armor that works with your tactic. Get the best weapon that works with your tactic. Set up your skills to work with your tactic." That's it, three points, and it's universal. There may be a greater variation of these three points but setting that aside it's the same process, the same meta, just translated over thousands of days since the genre came out.

I asked because I'm trying to encapsulate what makes this game "suck" versus other games that do the same thing. I don't think there's a game in existence where you are better off neglecting DPS ( even in huge raids ) for healing or control or defense. It just doesn't happen not because of enrage mechanics but because of player viability; eventually you will not be able to sustain your own construct if you don't have a specific level of offense. Offense has always been king.

#19 Epixors

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:49 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 17 February 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

I don't think there's a game in existence where you are better off neglecting DPS ( even in huge raids ) for healing or control or defense. It just doesn't happen not because of enrage mechanics but because of player viability; eventually you will not be able to sustain your own construct if you don't have a specific level of offense. Offense has always been king.

If there's a game with a holy trinity where you can function just fine without a tank and healer it's a broken game. I'd like to see a WoW Raid without tanks and healers ._.

#20 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

yes. you go to any public group and they're filled with morons who only want "FULL ZERKERS ONLY"

#21 El Duderino

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:02 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 17 February 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

DPS is always offense and defense in all games of this type. "Aggro"-tactics are nothing more than a spicy salt and overhealing / outhealing damage is again nothing more than a little zest to a clearly obvious system of clocking numbers. I guess removing the veil is what's so upsetting; it makes the rest of the same system seem so ... bland. After listening to a lot of people talk about GW2 and it's depths, shallowness, and failings I went back to the beginning and threw on some other games and MMOs and realized it was the same thing. Not only that it was the same thing with more frivolous options, wrong paths, and almost outright "tricks" in what is and isn't valuable. And it was all permanent. It was a punishment for "not knowing". It took many levels to make up for your "bad behavior" and "poor choices". That's what made guides so popular to begin with; it was a war of attrition if you screwed up. You had to grind 5 levels for that "second chance".

This and end-game in all games looks exactly the same. "Get the best armor that works with your tactic. Get the best weapon that works with your tactic. Set up your skills to work with your tactic." That's it, three points, and it's universal. There may be a greater variation of these three points but setting that aside it's the same process, the same meta, just translated over thousands of days since the genre came out.

I asked because I'm trying to encapsulate what makes this game "suck" versus other games that do the same thing. I don't think there's a game in existence where you are better off neglecting DPS ( even in huge raids ) for healing or control or defense. It just doesn't happen not because of enrage mechanics but because of player viability; eventually you will not be able to sustain your own construct if you don't have a specific level of offense. Offense has always been king.

I disagree. DPS was not defense in GW1. There was a game of buffs, debuffs and cleansers that created much more depth than simply DPS through everything. Let's face it, even a team which exuded offense, like the old IWAY teams, were still easily beaten by teams with skill and by teams with various levels of defense.  Consider, too, that the defense here isn't healing though everything, because that would have been impossible with energy constraints. Tactics (not killing pets and killing spirits), protection buffs (aegis) and debuffs (spiteful spirit, empathy, etc.) were all much better defensive choices for beating an IWAY team than trying to out DPS them. In fact, even in IWAY, the defense wasn't DPS, it was the skill that defined that build: "I Will Avenge You" and a necro stuck behind a wall of traps spamming heal party with BiP.)

There were many many levels of defense that simply don't exist in this game.

Also, I disagree that every game has a meta. I don't think GW1 had a meta that defined areas until after the balance became way out of whack with the addition of new classes and heroes. Until then, skill of the player was much much more important than the skills on the skillbars of the team.

#22 Epixors

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:03 PM

View PostI, on 17 February 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

yes. you go to any public group and they're filled with morons who only want "FULL ZERKERS ONLY"

I wonder if you're serious. Those people are trying to clear it somewhat efficiently for PUG standards, and are trying to avoid the "herpaderp i haz clerics never go down works in wvw pve so casual noobs can do it" people that can slow down a run terribly. In a PUG with no requirements in the description there is no problem joining them with tanky gear or anything, as soon as it's saying something like zerk, speedrun, rush, dps only, etc. you can be rather certain that they want DPS setups.

You can hate it and you might want to play how you want and that is fine with everyone (I hope, I don't represent everyone). Just don't join a group setting such requirements when you don't meet those because it's how they want to play.

Don't call them morons because they want to play how they want, I'd say the morons are those that deny them the right.

Edited by Epixors, 17 February 2014 - 05:06 PM.


#23 Veji

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:12 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 17 February 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

This is true, but in GW2, especially PvE, there is not enough rock, paper, scissor interactions to create anything that would be optimal other than rock vs. rock.

The best way to play is to DPS through everything as quickly as possible. DPS is both offense and defense in this game.

I think that is an integral part to why I dislike the combat so much in this game and why the zerker meta is what it is - DPS is not just an offensive weapon, it is also a defensive strategy. You are better off trading for more DPS than for more defense in this game.

So, yes, while every game eventually ends up being "who can kill the other guy first" it doesn't mean that straight DPS is the best way to do it. And that is why this is a DPS race more than other games and part of the reason why it feels so off compared to other games.

The issue with that is your way of thinking about it.  You can't take the game with the same approach as a game with holy trinity and all the associated roles.  You have to approach it with the same thought process you would, as if you were playing an ARPG, such as Diablo or Borderlands.  Thats what i do.

I'd love to see build diversity encouraged, but to do that, you invite the formation of class roles, and your rock-paper-scissors scenario.  In WvW, theres some build diversity, so i mean, at least we have that and its something.

#24 Epixors

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:18 PM

View PostVeji, on 17 February 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

The issue with that is your way of thinking about it.  You can't take the game with the same approach as a game with holy trinity and all the associated roles.  You have to approach it with the same thought process you would, as if you were playing an ARPG, such as Diablo or Borderlands.  Thats what i do.

Going for pure sheet DPS is terrible in Diablo 3, you need a healthy balance of eHP and eDPS in Diablo 3 compared to GW2 where you can go full DPS due to active defense (which I like btw).

#25 El Duderino

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:50 PM

View PostVeji, on 17 February 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

The issue with that is your way of thinking about it.  You can't take the game with the same approach as a game with holy trinity and all the associated roles.  You have to approach it with the same thought process you would, as if you were playing an ARPG, such as Diablo or Borderlands.  Thats what i do.

I'd love to see build diversity encouraged, but to do that, you invite the formation of class roles, and your rock-paper-scissors scenario.  In WvW, theres some build diversity, so i mean, at least we have that and its something.

I agree, that's why it goes back to my original statement. The fact that the game is actively trying to be active combat is what causes this. I just disagreed that every game is this way. It isn't. It's the action combat that almost necessitates it.

#26 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:10 PM

View PostEpixors, on 17 February 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

If there's a game with a holy trinity where you can function just fine without a tank and healer it's a broken game. I'd like to see a WoW Raid without tanks and healers ._.
Which is a misreading; even in WoW the mainstay of combat is DPS focused with different roles playing active parts to elongate the time that is had for the party to achieve it's goal. Basically "aggro-tactics" which is equivalent to basic diversion. Healers do about the same thing no different than healing in this game actually where it prolongs your staying power. The entire reason there has to be enrage mechanics in games like WoW is because if there isn't you basically get players building "standstills" and AFKing. There has to be some form of artificial pressure. GW2 doesn't require this.

#27 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:26 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 17 February 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

I disagree. DPS was not defense in GW1. There was a game of buffs, debuffs and cleansers that created much more depth than simply DPS through everything. Let's face it, even a team which exuded offense, like the old IWAY teams, were still easily beaten by teams with skill and by teams with various levels of defense.  Consider, too, that the defense here isn't healing though everything, because that would have been impossible with energy constraints. Tactics (not killing pets and killing spirits), protection buffs (aegis) and debuffs (spiteful spirit, empathy, etc.) were all much better defensive choices for beating an IWAY team than trying to out DPS them. In fact, even in IWAY, the defense wasn't DPS, it was the skill that defined that build: "I Will Avenge You" and a necro stuck behind a wall of traps spamming heal party with BiP.)

There were many many levels of defense that simply don't exist in this game.

Also, I disagree that every game has a meta. I don't think GW1 had a meta that defined areas until after the balance became way out of whack with the addition of new classes and heroes. Until then, skill of the player was much much more important than the skills on the skillbars of the team.
The problem is that it's a very basic reversal; you're now the Boss in the IWAY fight and they are fighting a war of attrition against you. You just need to outlast them. It's still based on DPS but instead of being "overtly offensive" it's now just covert offense with dedicated roles or skill rotaitons.

I guess in a sense GW2 lacks a Damage Sink. That's how I have come to find it; instead of insisting on you losing something for something else that is "critical to an encounter" you get your cake and eat it too. There's no Damage Sink so there's no Gear Checks, no Skill Checks, no Counter-Checks, and really none of the trash that sort of garbles many games. I am not against it though, it's fair, and it's not bad, but in almost every sense of the word it's convoluted.

It's not so much a challenge of skill and capability as it is a readiness for the Sink and the Swim procedures where you purposefully perform a Damage Sink and then you Swim through the event. I sort of wish that even GW2 would elevate to a point in which "things matter" though; it's progress in my eyes, you get away from the old crappy methods and tricks that instigate "skill" when in fact it's just either a set-up for direct DPS or some form of direct DPS veiled in a skill and wrapped in a "condition" or "buff" or "debuff".

#28 Dahk

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:30 PM

It's a DPS race in terms of the community, but not in terms of the game mechanics.  If it weren't for impatient players wanting to burn through easy content as fast as possible, berserker gear/builds wouldn't be nearly as prevalent.

Really, you need a set of berserker gear more for getting a group than for getting through a dungeon, lol.

#29 Gyre

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:56 PM

View PostEpixors, on 17 February 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

You can hate it and you might want to play how you want and that is fine with everyone (I hope, I don't represent everyone). Just don't join a group setting such requirements when you don't meet those because it's how they want to play.

Don't call them morons because they want to play how they want, I'd say the morons are those that deny them the right.

They have every right to try to join your party because they bought the game too.  This is what being in an open community of an online game is all about.  You want an MS Excel client run that's what close friends and guildies are for not a public group filling tool.  My guild always asks for full melee/dps on LFG and even if we know we don't get it we give the PUG a shot at fixing their utilities at the very least.  Who knows, they might learn something instead of "hi, ping full berserk + scholars or kick"

#30 master21

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:04 PM

View PostGyre, on 17 February 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

They have every right to try to join your party because they bought the game too.  This is what being in an open community of an online game is all about.  You want an MS Excel client run that's what close friends and guildies are for not a public group filling tool.  My guild always asks for full melee/dps on LFG and even if we know we don't get it we give the PUG a shot at fixing their utilities at the very least.  Who knows, they might learn something instead of "hi, ping full berserk + scholars or kick"


If they have right to ignore what I'm trying to tell in LFG and what I want I can plain ingore their right to play with me and kick them.
If I want applie pie I want applie pie, not one with oranges.




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