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Would you be angry if Scarlet turned out to be a victim of the bigger bad?


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#1 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:43 PM

For instance we're facing off against Scarlet, she gets unposessed by whatever the Bigger Bad is, and then turns good and we all have tea and crumpets "saving" her instead of killing her because she was just misunderstood. Does this displease you?

#2 sanctuaire

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:48 PM

while the LS on a whole displeases me,
(dev time better spent on more important things)

its not even a spoiler at this point, they dropped tons of hints already.

#3 rusticgamer

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:49 PM

Yes I want to see Scarlet removed permanently. It is not the best way that Anet handled the LS and I feel that the story of it is quite dull and especially Scarlet seems to be the worst character portrayed.

#4 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:49 PM

View Postsanctuaire, on 17 February 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

while the LS on a whole displeases me,
(dev time better spent on more important things)

its not even a spoiler at this point, they dropped tons of hints already.
I just hope her crazy stays crazy instead of the whole empty Puppet Strings thing. Like the Alliances and their Big Bads not changing to Carebears and seeing the error of their ways but dying instead.

#5 Konzacelt

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:24 AM

I'd be more angry if the writing itself turned out to be a victim of the bigger bad.  The bigger bad in this case being tropish, juvenile, and basically anything aimed at trying to please every demographic in the market.

Too late.

#6 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:27 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 18 February 2014 - 12:24 AM, said:

I'd be more angry if the writing itself turned out to be a victim of the bigger bad.  The bigger bad in this case being tropish, juvenile, and basically anything aimed at trying to please every demographic in the market.

Too late.
Aren't all stories for the most part like this? Esp. Tropish?

#7 Konzacelt

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:31 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 18 February 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

Aren't all stories for the most part like this? Esp. Tropish?

Uhhh...no.  Why would you think that?

#8 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:38 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 18 February 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

Uhhh...no.  Why would you think that?
I've played a lot of games. A LOT of games.

Let's just say that "Game Analysis" is something I ... have to do.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 18 February 2014 - 12:39 AM.


#9 Konzacelt

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:40 AM

Why hold them to a lower standard in terms of the writing?

#10 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:44 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 18 February 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

Why hold them to a lower standard in terms of the writing?
I don't. LS is poorly written but it's always been that way. Many games have to have some kind of tropish behavior in order to spurn you as the hero whether it be the overused Hero Ball or Ideal Hero and starting off with the PC all NPCs must follow suit in cheesiness. IF the PC is cheesier than the NPCs it's a farce, and if the NPCs are cheesier than the PCs by too much it's GW2.

#11 Phineas Poe

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:47 AM

Angry? No.

Why would I be angry that they remove Scarlet and put in her place a more central villain to the game's lore like Mordremoth, Primordus, or Dhuum?

#12 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:49 AM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 18 February 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

Angry? No.

Why would I be angry that they remove Scarlet and put in her place a more central villain to the game's lore like Mordremoth, Primordus, or Dhuum?
Because Scarlet could be nothing more than a pawn of Mordremoth who has invaded The Dream corrupting Sylvari until one such as her rose from the shadows and aligned with His will?

#13 ChuyDog08

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:50 AM

No, I won't be angry and kind of expect them to put some twist in to set up season 2 of the living story.  I will be greatly disappointed if she does not turn into a giant piñata and rain down precursors when popped open!

#14 Moharis Frostreign

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:01 AM

She needs to go, one way or another. Whether she's killed or laughs her fake maniacal laugh off into the sunset is inconsequential to me.

#15 sanctuaire

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:03 AM

View PostChuyDog08, on 18 February 2014 - 12:50 AM, said:

No, I won't be angry and kind of expect them to put some twist in to set up season 2 of the living story.  I will be greatly disappointed if she does not turn into a giant piñata and rain down precursors when popped open!

^

i will renounce all of my hatred of scarlett and say that LS is a great, super idea
if she does indeed turn into a giant piñata and rain down precursors on me.

Edited by sanctuaire, 18 February 2014 - 01:03 AM.


#16 Konzacelt

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:05 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 18 February 2014 - 12:44 AM, said:

I don't. LS is poorly written but it's always been that way. Many games have to have some kind of tropish behavior in order to spurn you as the hero whether it be the overused Hero Ball or Ideal Hero and starting off with the PC all NPCs must follow suit in cheesiness. IF the PC is cheesier than the NPCs it's a farce, and if the NPCs are cheesier than the PCs by too much it's GW2.

The LS is an indirect reflection of the problem of the whole narrative.  To be fair, the general story isn't all that badly written.  It's the choices they made with the whole plot that makes it suffer.

For instance, I'd argue the very introduction of Elder Dragon's themselves was a horrible decision.  So many game-stories already have a big, bad, giant dragon as this uber, apex antagonist that it's played out ad nauseam.  Tyria(the planet) already had such a wonderfully myriad and unique array of antagonists to build on from this games' predecessor.  ANet could have followed along this solid foundation, but instead they chose to scrap much of it in favor of these utterly stereotypical bad guys.  The way they describe the ED's and their backstory is fairly decent, but it was still a bad choice.  Why?  Personally I think they simply wanted to attract a more mainstream audience and thought this would be a good way to do it.  Plus I'm sure a lot of these semi-new devs were just chomping at the bit at the chance to inject their own ideas into the Tyrian narrative.

The ED's are just one obvious example.  But if you step back and look around at what Tyria has become(like Scarlet and the LS) in relation to what it was, it's like going from Bram Stoker's Dracula to Twilight.  It's ♥♥♥♥ing depressing.

Edited by Konzacelt, 18 February 2014 - 01:05 AM.


#17 Phineas Poe

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:05 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 18 February 2014 - 12:49 AM, said:

Because Scarlet could be nothing more than a pawn of Mordremoth who has invaded The Dream corrupting Sylvari until one such as her rose from the shadows and aligned with His will?

Why would that be a problem? Seems to me what they've been hinting at for a couple months now.

#18 Jentari

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:07 AM

I don't care if she turns good or not.  I just want it to be over,

#19 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:33 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 18 February 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

The LS is an indirect reflection of the problem of the whole narrative.  To be fair, the general story isn't all that badly written.  It's the choices they made with the whole plot that makes it suffer.

For instance, I'd argue the very introduction of Elder Dragon's themselves was a horrible decision.  So many game-stories already have a big, bad, giant dragon as this uber, apex antagonist that it's played out ad nauseam.  Tyria(the planet) already had such a wonderfully myriad and unique array of antagonists to build on from this games' predecessor.  ANet could have followed along this solid foundation, but instead they chose to scrap much of it in favor of these utterly stereotypical bad guys.  The way they describe the ED's and their backstory is fairly decent, but it was still a bad choice.  Why?  Personally I think they simply wanted to attract a more mainstream audience and thought this would be a good way to do it.  Plus I'm sure a lot of these semi-new devs were just chomping at the bit at the chance to inject their own ideas into the Tyrian narrative.

The ED's are just one obvious example.  But if you step back and look around at what Tyria has become(like Scarlet and the LS) in relation to what it was, it's like going from Bram Stoker's Dracula to Twilight.  It's ♥♥♥♥ing depressing.
It's all a matter of taste. That's what's nice about games really; I enjoy the story of some games and hate the story of games that have the exact same story. It's stupid but true. The beauty of stories though is that the ones you like lodge themselves into your brain and make themselves at home creating for themselves a nest of nostalgia which is actually a shield against time. You never look at the story for what it is. Nothing is wrong with this. It's just that is the truth; I could say that Final Fantasy Tactics is tropish, because it is, it has the anti-hero who becomes the hero in history, the true hero who is obscured, the whole cheesy secret faction, the empty "political dilemma", the "Too Good to Kill You" guy ( Ramza ) who should have and a normal person would have gutted Delita like a fish the ... 4th time he tried to kill him?

GW1 is like that for a lot of people. I mean it is a more fulfilling story but it's also sort of a 1 player type story where everything is instanced so that the story flows appropriately within time. Living story is actually an interesting introduction because it allows for the static behavior of GW1 to meet with a more progressive and common integration module. GW1 was great, before you lose your shit, but it had it's flaws and it had it's moments where it wasn't overwhelming with originality in the story. It's okay, that's gaming, and this was 10 years ago. They were building something new, story sort of fleshed out like you expect in maybe a TCG type fashion which the game is supposedly based off of.

I ramble like an old man but then again I'm at least old.

#20 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:59 AM

".....more progressive and common integration module", if by this you mean big ass lagfest events that incorporate tight communication and work of 100+ people i would say i dont like the idea.
LS from start was lacking i don`t know if it was just poorly writen piece or somebody has no idea how to direct the game (common thing these days) but i`m glad it`s comming to an end....and i really do hope they reconsider new LS.
They lost a complete year creating something that most of the people didn`t like (i bet if they put it on player vote, results would be...expected).A complete year in which we could have gotten two whole two (classic MMO) expansions new zones, maps, maybe answers about some other big bad dragons out there, maybe the original story continuation......

To me personally LS was just pure and big waste of time and workhours of complete team, i don`t know how will they end it but whatever they do i hope it washes away just a tiny little bit of bad taste that LS left in beautiful world of Tyria !

#21 Konzacelt

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:02 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 18 February 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

It's all a matter of taste. That's what's nice about games really; I enjoy the story of some games and hate the story of games that have the exact same story. It's stupid but true. The beauty of stories though is that the ones you like lodge themselves into your brain and make themselves at home creating for themselves a nest of nostalgia which is actually a shield against time. You never look at the story for what it is. Nothing is wrong with this. It's just that is the truth; I could say that Final Fantasy Tactics is tropish, because it is, it has the anti-hero who becomes the hero in history, the true hero who is obscured, the whole cheesy secret faction, the empty "political dilemma", the "Too Good to Kill You" guy ( Ramza ) who should have and a normal person would have gutted Delita like a fish the ... 4th time he tried to kill him?

GW1 is like that for a lot of people. I mean it is a more fulfilling story but it's also sort of a 1 player type story where everything is instanced so that the story flows appropriately within time. Living story is actually an interesting introduction because it allows for the static behavior of GW1 to meet with a more progressive and common integration module. GW1 was great, before you lose your shit, but it had it's flaws and it had it's moments where it wasn't overwhelming with originality in the story. It's okay, that's gaming, and this was 10 years ago. They were building something new, story sort of fleshed out like you expect in maybe a TCG type fashion which the game is supposedly based off of.

I ramble like an old man but then again I'm at least old.

That's just it though.  It's not sentimentality, it's just good taste.  Yes, GW1 had it's share of banality.  But it also had the courage to forge its own path and not succumb to popular culture.  GW2 likes to wax poetic about how "innovative" it is.  But in this sense they did the opposite: they went from innovative to unimaginative in one fell swoop.And yes, the LS itself is an innovative idea, but there's still no reason to basically graft an entirely new, and tropish, narrative onto the old one in which the two parts bear little resemblance.

The saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  The same holds true for innovation.  If the old narrative had such promise and originality, then don't mess with it.  Innovation is supposed to be implemented in areas that actually need it, not just a broadsword stroke across the whole canvas.  This idea that anything new and fresh trumps anything old and tried is just plain folly.

#22 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:15 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 18 February 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:

That's just it though.  It's not sentimentality, it's just good taste.  Yes, GW1 had it's share of banality.  But it also had the courage to forge its own path and not succumb to popular culture.  GW2 likes to wax poetic about how "innovative" it is.  But in this sense they did the opposite: they went from innovative to unimaginative in one fell swoop.And yes, the LS itself is an innovative idea, but there's still no reason to basically graft an entirely new, and tropish, narrative onto the old one in which the two parts bear little resemblance.

The saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  The same holds true for innovation.  If the old narrative had such promise and originality, then don't mess with it.  Innovation is supposed to be implemented in areas that actually need it, not just a broadsword stroke across the whole canvas.  This idea that anything new and fresh trumps anything old and tried is just plain folly.
If I know anything about writing a story you want to avoid like the plague continuations of hundreds of years. It's very, very difficult to do.

The decisions made about the story are not mine to speak on though; it's very different but also takes place in what is now a completely different world. It's gone from a politically intense story to something ... else. It left that political intensity in my opinion after factions starting with Nightfall and the revival attempts of whatshisface, enemy of Grenth.

However I don't fault them for having a tired old story because most tales have been told. I do feel that it is a bit predictable but also a bit strange; not everything is "tied down" if you will. I mean honestly half the content and turnout you could guess and half of it is just whack; if Anet didn't "prerelease" all of it's storyline it might actually be captivating to find out that this or that happened. Sadly we're not that cool.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 18 February 2014 - 02:17 AM.


#23 Bryant Again

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:16 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 18 February 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:

That's just it though.  It's not sentimentality, it's just good taste.  Yes, GW1 had it's share of banality.  But it also had the courage to forge its own path and not succumb to popular culture.  GW2 likes to wax poetic about how "innovative" it is.  But in this sense they did the opposite: they went from innovative to unimaginative in one fell swoop.And yes, the LS itself is an innovative idea, but there's still no reason to basically graft an entirely new, and tropish, narrative onto the old one in which the two parts bear little resemblance.

The saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  The same holds true for innovation.  If the old narrative had such promise and originality, then don't mess with it.  Innovation is supposed to be implemented in areas that actually need it, not just a broadsword stroke across the whole canvas.  This idea that anything new and fresh trumps anything old and tried is just plain folly.

I was *really* putting high hopes on the personal story. I was heavily given the impression that my choices at character creation would mold the entirety of it. A 1-80 quest exploring the relationship and need of rescuing my sister or uncovering and nailing a White Mantle plot sounded awesome. Then Claw Island happened.

#24 Konzacelt

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:49 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 18 February 2014 - 02:15 AM, said:

If I know anything about writing a story you want to avoid like the plague continuations of hundreds of years. It's very, very difficult to do.

So they chose the easier path then, eh?

Quote

It's gone from a politically intense story to something ... else. It left that political intensity in my opinion after factions starting with Nightfall and the revival attempts of whatshisface, enemy of Grenth.

True...which happens to be the same time ANet brought on board a bunch of new writing talent like Ree and Jeff.  Coincidence?

Quote

However I don't fault them for having a tired old story because most tales have been told.

Hardly.  If you look on that globe in the Order of Whispers, the area of Tyria(the continent) is tiny.  There's leagues and leagues of potential growth all around it.  Why confine yourself to that small piece of the Tyrian pie when you could be expanding over the Blazeridge Mountains, or across Giant's Basin to the Janthir, or past Maguuma to the great western sea?  In the words of Jodie Foster, "...seems like an awful waste of space." ;)

Edited by Konzacelt, 18 February 2014 - 02:51 AM.


#25 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:00 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 18 February 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

So they chose the easier path then, eh?
I wouldn't call it easy. Writing a whole new story for a world is nothing easy.

Quote

True...which happens to be the same time ANet brought on board a bunch of new writing talent like Ree and Jeff.  Coincidence?
If only we weren't discussing something 9 years old; it would be easy to get an approval chart and see if there was a tangible difference in expansions. I can't even remember when people came and left, not that the game is dead, it's still up.

Quote

Hardly.  If you look on that globe in the Order of Whispers, the area of Tyria(the continent) is tiny.  There's leagues and leagues of potential growth all around it.  Why confine yourself to that small piece of the Tyrian pie when you could be expanding over the Blazeridge Mountains, or across Giant's Basin to the Janthir, or past Maguuma to the great western sea?  In the words of Jodie Foster, "...seems like an awful waste of space." ;)
Is that not what they did in GW1? They expanded over the world. It wasn't an accident that the map did this; what you see as a waste of space I see as a developmental breeding ground. It gives some leverage to them before they are condemned while also keeping the game manageable. For instance if the level cap went up by say 10 there's now entire droves of unused map to use as they see fit so all areas can expand while also not requiring a direct expansion unlike most games. It's a good thing actually; that room to grow is necessary since most games suffer from from having to basically expand the game over an expansion which is very outdated as things are going since on-the-dime updates seem to be more and more popular and common.

#26 Konzacelt

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:15 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 18 February 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

Is that not what they did in GW1? They expanded over the world. It wasn't an accident that the map did this; what you see as a waste of space I see as a developmental breeding ground. It gives some leverage to them before they are condemned while also keeping the game manageable. For instance if the level cap went up by say 10 there's now entire droves of unused map to use as they see fit so all areas can expand while also not requiring a direct expansion unlike most games. It's a good thing actually; that room to grow is necessary since most games suffer from from having to basically expand the game over an expansion which is very outdated as things are going since on-the-dime updates seem to be more and more popular and common.

I meant beyond those areas, silly man.  By your own logic, if it worked so well for them then, why didn't they continue that?  Why not keep expanding outside of Tyria, Cantha, and Elona?  Why turn inward and remake the entire map?  It makes little sense to me that they thought they had to destroy GW1 culture and remake it when they could have simply added to it.

And there's no reason to need a level cap increase to introduce new areas...that's just pathetic.  A level cap increase is just their way of getting everyone to buy new gear.

"...more popular and common."  Well you're spot on with that sentiment.  -_-

#27 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:15 AM

C'mon, Rox, Braham and co. still need a Sylvari for their merry band. :devil:

I don't mind if Anet injects more dragons into the game, but I would also like some more sentient villains.  Ones they don't just appear like mindless, feral forces of nature.  Villains with personality, that you love to hate, like Vader or Arthas or Kerrigan.  Now if they can reform Scarlet to be more calculating and sinister, instead of wild and seemingly random, I can live with that (I may be in the minority there); but I would like some villains with a personality.

But I think people need to prepare themselves for the possibility that Anet will not get rid of Scarlet.  So I'm rooting for an improvement of the character.

#28 Andemius

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:26 AM

I want her head on a pike. She's an exceptionally poorly written character, and as such the only emotion she evokes in me is irritation.

Edit: Added superlative.

Edited by Andemius, 18 February 2014 - 04:27 AM.


#29 MazingerZ

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:12 AM

No, because OOC, she's viewed as a nuisance and IC, there's been nothing to imply she was ever any sort of saint.

This isn't like watching the downfall of Arthas or Malygos.  There was never anything redeeming about the character to begin with.

Attempting to shoe-horn in any sympathetic angle this far in smacks of 'YOU SHOULD FEEL THIS EMOTION' which is never a good thing in writing.  If they do it, its another mile dug into this sinkhole of a plot.

Edited by MazingerZ, 18 February 2014 - 05:13 AM.

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#30 Kymeric

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:21 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 18 February 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

For instance, I'd argue the very introduction of Elder Dragon's themselves was a horrible decision.

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 18 February 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

I don't mind if Anet injects more dragons into the game, but I would also like some more sentient villains.  Ones they don't just appear like mindless, feral forces of nature.  

Agreed.  I keep seeing people saying "get rid of Scarlet, we need moar dragonz!" and I just don't get it.  IMO, the elder dragons aren't much better because they have the exact same problem as she does.  We can't identify with their motivations.  The best villains are the ones we can understand and even identify with.  We know what they want, why they want it so badly, and why they've chosen to harm others to get it.  Maniacally cackling shrubs and mountain-sized forces of nature just don't make for very engaging stories.

There's a reason the personal story is much more interesting up to Claw Island, then suddenly becomes dull afterward, and it's only partly due to Trahearne.

Edited by Kymeric, 18 February 2014 - 12:21 PM.





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