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Living Story Vs Personal Story

lions arch personal story

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#1 Nesiko

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 03:45 AM

One of the most laziest thing I have EVER. I mean EVER saw. The patch itself to the city. Its awesome. It leaves you wanting more.
But when you are doing the personal story for the first time or for the <insert number here> times and when the living story invades into the story. It looks like the most laziest mess ever. It’s like a cross between “WTF” I mean seriously, devs?
You couldn’t either make Lions Arch look like how it was before Scarlet blew <-beep-> up or at least ab-lib the story to make the “return” of Destiny’s Edge more sense. Kids playing “Destiny’s Edge” while things are falling down, <beep> is burning, the whole city looks like a hot effing mess and then there is MIASMA in the air? And then you have random citizens standing around, doing nothing. Acting like it’s literally “Another day in the neighborhood” and “What’s a Scarlet?” Or “What’s this big thing drilling into Old LA?” kitten Dur.
I’m sorry..eh-squeeze me a moment. Isn’t the title of the patch “Escape from Lions Arch.” I know this Living Story is POST Zhaitan. Zhaitan is dead.
But, the personal story should AT LEAST either AGAIN reflect the prior Lions Arch or do something to make the personal story…I dunno…make sense?
I’m not sure if you care much..about anyone re-doing their personal story. Or doing it for the first time (Since you advertise so clearly to buy Guild Wars 2 at the end of each trailer for newbie players) . Stop..looking LAZY! Or being lazy.
Go through the personal story…and ask yourself on the level 30 mission of the reunion of Destiny’s Edge. The whole Lions Arch looking like a war zone do any of these make sense?
If it does…feel free to ignore this post/rant. And laugh yer way to the bank.
If it doesn’t. Review it, revise it. Re-edit. Please. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Durmand Priory Scholar

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#2 Azure Skye

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 03:51 AM

View PostNesiko, on 22 February 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

One of the most laziest thing I have EVER. I mean EVER saw. The patch itself to the city. Its awesome. It leaves you wanting more.
But when you are doing the personal story for the first time or for the <insert number here> times and when the living story invades into the story. It looks like the most laziest mess ever. It’s like a cross between “WTF” I mean seriously, devs?
You couldn’t either make Lions Arch look like how it was before Scarlet blew <-beep-> up or at least ab-lib the story to make the “return” of Destiny’s Edge more sense. Kids playing “Destiny’s Edge” while things are falling down, <beep> is burning, the whole city looks like a hot effing mess and then there is MIASMA in the air? And then you have random citizens standing around, doing nothing. Acting like it’s literally “Another day in the neighborhood” and “What’s a Scarlet?” Or “What’s this big thing drilling into Old LA?” kitten Dur.
I’m sorry..eh-squeeze me a moment. Isn’t the title of the patch “Escape from Lions Arch.” I know this Living Story is POST Zhaitan. Zhaitan is dead.
But, the personal story should AT LEAST either AGAIN reflect the prior Lions Arch or do something to make the personal story…I dunno…make sense?
I’m not sure if you care much..about anyone re-doing their personal story. Or doing it for the first time (Since you advertise so clearly to buy Guild Wars 2 at the end of each trailer for newbie players) . Stop..looking LAZY! Or being lazy.
Go through the personal story…and ask yourself on the level 30 mission of the reunion of Destiny’s Edge. The whole Lions Arch looking like a war zone do any of these make sense?
If it does…feel free to ignore this post/rant. And laugh yer way to the bank.
If it doesn’t. Review it, revise it. Re-edit. Please. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Durmand Priory Scholar
The Living story is happening when they going to fight Zhaitan. That is why you dont see any of the characters from the personal story that much during the living story.

Yes, i do agree this is bad but this is only going to be for a few more weeks.

Edited by Azure Skye, 22 February 2014 - 03:52 AM.


#3 Arkham Creed

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:01 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 22 February 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

The Living story is happening when they going to fight Zhaitan. That is why you dont see any of the characters from the personal story that much during the living story.

Yes, i do agree this is bad but this is only going to be for a few more weeks.

That is assuming Lion’s Arch goes back to normal after this is all said and done. Also do you have a source for saying this is all happening during the personal story; this is the first I've heard of that and it really makes zero sense.

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Either way I have to agree with Nesiko; this is just lazy and incompetent. If you’re going to do something do it right, don’t half ass it or you’ll just make yourself look bad.  

Edited by Arkham Creed, 22 February 2014 - 04:02 AM.


#4 Azure Skye

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:17 AM

View PostArkham Creed, on 22 February 2014 - 04:01 AM, said:

That is assuming Lion’s Arch goes back to normal after this is all said and done. Also do you have a source for saying this is all happening during the personal story; this is the first I've heard of that and it really makes zero sense.

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Either way I have to agree with Nesiko; this is just lazy and incompetent. If you’re going to do something do it right, don’t half ass it or you’ll just make yourself look bad.  

I did the personal story not to long ago either.

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#5 Arkham Creed

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:22 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 22 February 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

I did the personal story not to long ago either.

So you’re saying that is just your “head-cannon.” Yeah I do that too. I have those achievement weapon skins and like to imagine that the crystals that make up guardian’s staff split apart and reconfigure into his scepter and shield when he wants them too. Sadly these things are not the game’s cannon. If you go by the timeline and actual lore you are just straight up wrong. One of the major defining updates here, the arrival of the Aetherblade Sky Pirates, happened months ago during Dragon Bash. And do you know what Dragon Bash was celebrating? Zhaitan’s death.

Edited by Arkham Creed, 22 February 2014 - 04:25 AM.


#6 Azure Skye

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:27 AM

View PostArkham Creed, on 22 February 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

So you’re saying that is just your “head-cannon.” Yeah I do that too. I have those achievement weapon skins and like to imagine that the crystals that make up guardian’s staff split apart and reconfigure into his scepter and shield when he wants them too. Sadly these things are not the game’s cannon. If you go by the timeline you are just straight up wrong. One of the major defining updates here, the arrival of the Aetherblade Sky Pirates happened months ago during Dragon Bash. And do you know what Dragon Bash was celebrating? Zhaitan’s death.
Not really. it's celebrating the rising threat and trying to defeating them of the older dragons in Tyria rather then celebrating them.

Edited by Azure Skye, 22 February 2014 - 04:38 AM.


#7 Arkham Creed

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:39 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 22 February 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Not really. it's celebrating the raising threat and trying to defeating them of the older dragons in Tyria rather then celebrating them.

I suppose we're at an impasse then. Still without an official source saying that the living story and the personal story are happening at the same time I'm going to just assume I'm right.

#8 Nesiko

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:55 AM

But eitherway. The personal story is messed up. During the attack of Zhaitan or even post Zhaitan. They are acting like it's another day in the neighborhood. Me and Arkham just witness Caithe go to use a Dead Asuran Gate. I even got up fraps that I am going to sometime later (after I get Adobe Master Collection to freaking work) show all of the exploits of the laziness Arena Net did with the personal story collabing with the living story.

Edited by Nesiko, 22 February 2014 - 04:55 AM.


#9 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:47 AM

Isn't this just the dangers of combining Instanced Content with Overworld Content? Chronological mishaps like this are natural; in the LS Zhaitan is very dead, but in the PS Zhaitan never dies; if the LS and the PS lined up universally I believe some of the dungeons would have to close down with the bandits in Caduseus Manor for instance are part of a rebellion that ceases to exist ( or at least in the LS diminishes to some degree ) after the Queen's Jubilee LS event. All of the story dungeons are completely out of sync with the LS since all story dungeons, even if graphically correct, are chronologically incorrect.

The amount of effort it would take, even if LA is never restored, to change out this version of the graphical map ( which is definitely not permanent ) and reapply in every instance the old LA but then return you to the chronologically correct one is far too great. It would be neat, no doubt, but that essentially means having to remake and re-instance all of Lion's Arch to make it graphically correct which in turn creates a high rate of coding errors and an even stronger sense of inconsistency since now you've got literal time-traveling behavior which isn't reflected in the dungeons at all.

TL;DR: It's just one big mess.

#10 Karuro

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:49 AM

Totally expected this.
When I did the Personal Story during festivals, all the festival decorations were also still up.
Fighting off the Risen in LA in the snow. Fun.

Can't believe people on the official forums kept saying it wouldn't change, while it does every festival..
PS LA just doesn't work like that.

Edited by Karuro, 22 February 2014 - 11:50 AM.


#11 Kattar

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:19 PM

Is this a discussion thread? Or a suggestion thread?

You realize this isn't Anet's forum right?

You are fooling yourself, user. Nothing here is what it seems. ANet is not the plucky hero, Guru is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena.



Questions about moderation? For the love of Balthazar ask them here!


#12 Konzacelt

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:03 PM

I don't know for sure, but perhaps we all assumed Dragon Bash was post-Zhaitan since...you know...that would make sense.  All that Zhaitaffy around seems to imply he's not a threat anymore.  /shrug

The Dragon Bash wiki page does say it's supposed to be for all the ED's, like Azure Sky mentioned.  But that could easily have been reworded on there, they've done it plenty of times.

The real issue comes from trying to figure out which story(PS and LS) is chronological and which is static.  A lot of mmo's have a static world, and the campaigns(or PS in this case) are where you're supposed to be "progressing through time" so to speak.  If you think of GW2 as the doing the opposite, it makes a little more sense that way.  The PS is connected to the open-world and is relatively "static" while the LS seems to be where things actually change from yesterday to tomorrow.  This would certainly fit in with ANet's "Living World" mantra where they are using the LS as the only vehicle for change as opposed to the PS.

It's too bad really, since the PS(especially for levels 1-30) is better written and more engaging.  Having it not really matter to the Living World makes it rather benign and pointless.  I find it rather odd that ANet thinks that shallow 2-week tweeks to the world is a better medium for this Living World concept.  Taking more time with the content and having the changes come every 1-2 months with much more meat to them would probably be better received.  An even better idea would be simply having the LS start right after Zhaitan's defeat and mix new characters and side stories into an overarching narrative that deals with the other ED's.

#13 Lordkrall

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:11 PM

The Living Story all takes place after Southsun Cove.
Southsun Cove happens after the defeat of Zhaitan.

Thus the Living Story happens after the Personal Story.


The main issue here is that they are basically using the open world version of Lion's Arch for the Personal story parts that takes place there. And thus it appears destroyed, even though the Personal Story actually takes place about a year before Scarlets attack.

They probably did this in order to save money and space, since otherwise they would basically have to have two versions of Lion's Arch up on the servers at all time. One for Personal Story, and one for current events. Which is of course something they actually SHOULD do, but maybe the management doesn't want to give them the money for it.

#14 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:17 PM

I believe the devs have already admitted that PS is a bit of an anchor on what they're now trying to do.  It worked great for what it was at release.  Introducing people to the game, giving them a breadcrumb trail to follow to offer some direction, and provide a (compelling?) story of which your character is an integral part.  I agree if the devs are not beginning discussions as to what to do with PS, they SHOULD be.

That said, it's likely that storing two versions of LA is not technically feasible in the current game design.  And there is NO WAY they would have had the time to redesign the PS in parallel to this release.  They have only so much time and resources, they were on a schedule for the LS release.  So PS immersion is going to have to suffer.

Now people can get all worked up about it and considering game breaking, or you can roll with the punches, maybe have a good laugh about it, and hope they are working on what to do.

Personally, I would like to see them convert PS into a racial quest.  Introduce you to the lore of that race, and progress it through their own territory, rather than all roads leading to LA and Orr.  Perhaps keep the into quests, but that rewrite the parts with the Pact and maybe even the Orders.

I think I want to take some of my alts through the LA PS arch just to see how silly it looks.  I have 3 I think that are in that range of their stories. :)

#15 Konzacelt

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:23 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 22 February 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

The Living Story all takes place after Southsun Cove.
Southsun Cove happens after the defeat of Zhaitan.

Thus the Living Story happens after the Personal Story.


The main issue here is that they are basically using the open world version of Lion's Arch for the Personal story parts that takes place there. And thus it appears destroyed, even though the Personal Story actually takes place about a year before Scarlets attack.

They probably did this in order to save money and space, since otherwise they would basically have to have two versions of Lion's Arch up on the servers at all time. One for Personal Story, and one for current events. Which is of course something they actually SHOULD do, but maybe the management doesn't want to give them the money for it.

Yeah...

Something tells me they just kind of let the PS sit and rot while they funneled all of their energy into the LS.  Although I don't see why it would be so hard to "store" the previous LA, it's not like it would require any development.  I think they got really lazy here.

#16 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:46 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 22 February 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Yeah...

Something tells me they just kind of let the PS sit and rot while they funneled all of their energy into the LS.  Although I don't see why it would be so hard to "store" the previous LA, it's not like it would require any development.  I think they got really lazy here.

It is more complicated than you think. At current the portals to LA only link to one LA so in order to actually perform the change all the activation points for the LS have to change since that's what begins the instance. So they must be moved outside of LA.

#17 Lordkrall

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:21 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 22 February 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Yeah...

Something tells me they just kind of let the PS sit and rot while they funneled all of their energy into the LS.  Although I don't see why it would be so hard to "store" the previous LA, it's not like it would require any development.  I think they got really lazy here.

While it might not seem hard. It most likely is.

And there is also the matter of space. They would require rather much space to store pre-attack LA on the servers and making it accessible at all times. And most likely it would be used very little, and thus the management might not feel that it is worth "wasting" the money on having it taking up space.

#18 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 22 February 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

all the activation points for the LS have to change since that's what begins the instance. So they must be moved outside of LA.

I believe they did that.  I haven't checked personally, but it was something I specifically read.

View PostKonzacelt, on 22 February 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Something tells me they just kind of let the PS sit and rot while they funneled all of their energy into the LS.  Although I don't see why it would be so hard to "store" the previous LA, it's not like it would require any development.  I think they got really lazy here.

The ease or difficulty of storing multiple LAs all depends on how the game was designed.  Sure it "sounds" simple to think about.  But in programming, things are not always as simple as they appear in your head.  How it was originally designed plays a big role in that.

And what choice did they have besides letting the PS "rot" as you say?  Imagine how many instances, missions, conversations are in the PS across all races, and all the choices you can make.  That's not a trivial thing to redesign, depending on how extensive the change.  They may not have realized where the LS would take them, or missed how much the PS would get in the way.  But imagine the uproar if they said they were dedicate some development cycles to just the PS alone (which they would almost have to do, to do it properly).  Some people did not like the PS.  Others have made all the characters they ever will, run as many PS as they ever want to.  Now you're telling these groups you're dropping almost everything to revamp content they'll never see.

Meanwhile, LS put them on a high turnaround schedule.  And it was a bit of an experiment when they started out, so they didn't full know where it would take them.

Nothing is flawless.  MMOs doubly so.  My personal philosophy is, as long as I still enjoy playing, then I'm willing to give the devs a wide latitude.

#19 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:36 PM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 22 February 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

I believe they did that.  I haven't checked personally, but it was something I specifically read.
I just looked up the Player Notes: The instances begin with an NPC so it doesn't look like there's any actual "change" to the instances themselves and they aren't using their original markers.

In order to convert you would need to take a second LA, recode all corridinates ( since copy-paste probably wouldn't work with how fragile world-design systems can be ), re-insert all events ( which requires more bug testing ) and finally re-release all instance points outside of LA permanently ( since LS would always, even if restored to it's original state, obstruct purist LS ) to a map that cannot change.

It's a touchy concept. Biggest and buggiest issue would be dealing with any form of potential misdirection and just getting stuck or losing characters in "The Datafields" or "The Abyss".

#20 Nesiko

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:46 PM

Mostly a dicussion. And even though nothing is flawless but I mean seriousily, come on. It's not like they don't have the money to drop in the old LA instance for every race/order. Or at least fix it that it makes. And if LA gets changed permantly to become either another Old Ascalon City/ LA Ruins. Or they get re-vamp. Touch up the story to make sense.

I've done gamming before even though yes it is hard and a pain in the ass. You do want to be lazy and copy and paste everything. But they already placed a reputation for themselves. If you are clearly going to make the LS interfere all up in the PS grill. Clearly, they can edit the ps that it doesn't look like a hot effin' mess.

#21 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:59 PM

View PostNesiko, on 22 February 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

Mostly a dicussion. And even though nothing is flawless but I mean seriousily, come on. It's not like they don't have the money to drop in the old LA instance for every race/order. Or at least fix it that it makes. And if LA gets changed permantly to become either another Old Ascalon City/ LA Ruins. Or they get re-vamp. Touch up the story to make sense.

I've done gamming before even though yes it is hard and a pain in the ass. You do want to be lazy and copy and paste everything. But they already placed a reputation for themselves. If you are clearly going to make the LS interfere all up in the PS grill. Clearly, they can edit the ps that it doesn't look like a hot effin' mess.

Well taking you at your word with gaming experience what exactly would you do?

#22 Konzacelt

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:06 PM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 22 February 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

And what choice did they have besides letting the PS "rot" as you say?  Imagine how many instances, missions, conversations are in the PS across all races, and all the choices you can make.  That's not a trivial thing to redesign, depending on how extensive the change.  They may not have realized where the LS would take them, or missed how much the PS would get in the way.  But imagine the uproar if they said they were dedicate some development cycles to just the PS alone (which they would almost have to do, to do it properly).  Some people did not like the PS.  Others have made all the characters they ever will, run as many PS as they ever want to.  Now you're telling these groups you're dropping almost everything to revamp content they'll never see.

Meanwhile, LS put them on a high turnaround schedule.  And it was a bit of an experiment when they started out, so they didn't full know where it would take them.

I still don't understand how they didn't have all of this worked out beforehand.  You mean to tell me that at launch, all of this LS stuff wasn't thought out yet?  As a dev, how do you make a game where you have no idea where the story is going to take you?  For instance, I assume they already know how they will intro the other ED's eventually.  You mean to say that everything since launch is a work-in-progress?  I'm sorry, but that's really irresponsible planning.

#23 Nesiko

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:13 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 22 February 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Well taking you at your word with gaming experience what exactly would you do?
If I'm going with they are acknowleding LS. Re-write the coding, take out the citzens that shouldn't be there. And re-write the dialoge that makes sense in both LS and PS world.

And I agree with you Konza, if LS was pre-plan before launch then they messed up HORRIBLY. Because then they would have had to known that their LS would interfere with the PS and planned it accordingly to either prevent it or that they both can mesh well together while making sense.

#24 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:39 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if they had the story idea for LS, but not the LS format that they used.  I'm sure it was a bit of a scramble to just get the game release out.  And I'm sure there were a lot of things they had to push out to get it out.  So to think they didn't have TOO many plans after that is plausible.  But I can't presume to know WHAT is going on behind the doors of Anet.  Which is again why I'm keen to give them some slack.

As for having enough money to keep two LAs around.  None of us can possibly know what money ANet has to work with.  Especially if you believe those that claim that NCSoft skims of ANets profits for their other games.

#25 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:50 PM

View PostNesiko, on 22 February 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

If I'm going with they are acknowleding LS. Re-write the coding, take out the citzens that shouldn't be there. And re-write the dialoge that makes sense in both LS and PS world.

And I agree with you Konza, if LS was pre-plan before launch then they messed up HORRIBLY. Because then they would have had to known that their LS would interfere with the PS and planned it accordingly to either prevent it or that they both can mesh well together while making sense.
How long do you think it would take for your plan to be enacted?

#26 Lordkrall

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:51 PM

View PostNesiko, on 22 February 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

Mostly a dicussion. And even though nothing is flawless but I mean seriousily, come on. It's not like they don't have the money to drop in the old LA instance for every race/order. Or at least fix it that it makes. And if LA gets changed permantly to become either another Old Ascalon City/ LA Ruins. Or they get re-vamp. Touch up the story to make sense.

I've done gamming before even though yes it is hard and a pain in the ass. You do want to be lazy and copy and paste everything. But they already placed a reputation for themselves. If you are clearly going to make the LS interfere all up in the PS grill. Clearly, they can edit the ps that it doesn't look like a hot effin' mess.

And how much money do they have? Since you clear knows more than the rest of us, those numbers would be interesting.

ArenaNet themselves have very little (if any) money, since they are fully owned by NCSoft. And from NCSofts point of view spending money into hosting a map that will be used extremely infrequently might simply not be worth it, and thus they would give no money for it.

That would basically mean that ArenaNet would have to decide between putting money and resources into new content, or putting less money in that and more in keeping up a double set of LA maps.

And no, they can't really "touch up the story" either. Seeing as it takes place a YEAR before the actual attack. And thus, changing the story to take that into account would require rewriting the whole personal story and the whole timeline.

#27 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 07:39 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 22 February 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

ArenaNet themselves have very little (if any) money, since they are fully owned by NCSoft. And from NCSofts point of view spending money into hosting a map that will be used extremely infrequently might simply not be worth it, and thus they would give no money for it.

That would basically mean that ArenaNet would have to decide between putting money and resources into new content, or putting less money in that and more in keeping up a double set of LA maps.

This might make sense except

(1) The old LA map has already been made
(2) all personal story uses existing maps
(3) it's actually the Living Story that is going round requiring new maps to be made that people forget about after two months

#28 Lordkrall

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:46 PM

View PostBeyond Freedom, on 22 February 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

This might make sense except

(1) The old LA map has already been made
(2) all personal story uses existing maps
(3) it's actually the Living Story that is going round requiring new maps to be made that people forget about after two months

Yes, it have been made.
But something being made doesn't magically make it take no space.

Due to the details of Lion's Arch I would say it takes a rather large amount server-space. And despite what people seems to think, server-space is still not free.

#29 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:50 PM

View PostBeyond Freedom, on 22 February 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

(1) The old LA map has already been made

That may be.  But the way the game interacts with it.  The way their servers are organized.  The way it is stored in the datafile on your computer.  May make it not so easy to get the game to interact with two different versions of the map.

I know this won't make sense to some people.  "The old map exists.  It's already designed.  Why can't they just USE it?"  But it's not always that easy.

#30 Konzacelt

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:06 PM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 22 February 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

That may be.  But the way the game interacts with it.  The way their servers are organized.  The way it is stored in the datafile on your computer.  May make it not so easy to get the game to interact with two different versions of the map.

I know this won't make sense to some people.  "The old map exists.  It's already designed.  Why can't they just USE it?"  But it's not always that easy.

So...if the game won't interact very well with 2 different versions of the same map, why create content which voids a particular piece of the PS?  I mean, if they knew creating this latest map rework would make the PS not make much sense, and that it would be very hard to "fix it" from a story perspective, then why do it?

That just makes me it seem like they don't think the PS is very valuable an asset to the game as a whole.  Which makes sense from a monetization point of view...the PS doesn't exactly bring in any extra money beyond the sticker price.




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