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Just something I noticed…


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#1 Arkham Creed

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:45 AM

So Arena Net said that they would be addressing the issue of condition builds being completely outclassed by direct damage builds in all forms of content….

Now they have released a patch featuring three legendary bosses that basically need to be killed at the same time who not only can completely clear full stacks of every condition simultaneously, but also reflect those conditions back at players. This makes players like myself who run condition builds even more of a liability.

/sighs

#2 Phineas Poe

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:54 AM

That's not entirely accurate.

They do have a "Condition Reflect" phase at 100% and 50%. But once you get them to 75% and 25% respectively, they switch to their "Condition Crash" phase and take significantly more damage. For every condition their "power level" is reduced one stack, which reduces the damage they dish out and increases the damage they take.

It's why they melt like butter during those middle phases. Those are conditions reducing their armor.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 07 March 2014 - 03:57 AM.


#3 FoxBat

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:02 AM

In the "crash" phase the bosses take more damage per condition on them, but you don't exactly need dedicated condi toons for a zerg to hit cap either...

#4 RandolfRa

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:50 AM

Note that condition specs are very powerful in wvw roaming, duels and in tpvp. They are weak only in pve and zerg vs. zerg. Nevertheless, they could just lift the condi cap from pve. It serves no purpose.

Edited by RandolfRa, 07 March 2014 - 04:59 AM.


#5 Arkham Creed

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 05:29 AM

View PostRandolfRa, on 07 March 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

Note that condition specs are very powerful in wvw roaming, duels and in tpvp. They are weak only in pve and zerg vs. zerg. Nevertheless, they could just lift the condi cap from pve. It serves no purpose.

Server issue. Or at least that is what Arena Net claims; their server tech can't handle more than twenty-five stacks of a given condition on a single target. Something about it being too much information or too many calculations or something.

#6 Bryant Again

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:32 AM

Condition damage is a very strange thing in PvE. mainly because of the rest of the game taking a very open and friendly approach to multiplayer gameplay. Shared material nodes, shared mob XP, personalized loot, 'anything goes' party layouts - then there's condition damage, and the way it's implemented doesn't fit in at all. I'm really hoping to see more solutions in the near future.. I can't really think of anything that interferes with other players as much condition damage does.

Edited by Bryant Again, 07 March 2014 - 08:44 AM.


#7 Kuskah

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:34 PM

The bosses have been made such a bullshit fight for condition oriented classes. With the latest patch, you can only have 50 people at a single knight, which is immune to all conditions 50% of the time. So if you happen to be a condition necromancer you like what, tickle it with your staff hand until it gets vulnerable to conditions? Or /sit and eat some Zhaitaffys while raw DPS classes attack? Come on, ANet...

#8 Feathermoore

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:51 PM

View PostArkham Creed, on 07 March 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Server issue. Or at least that is what Arena Net claims; their server tech can't handle more than twenty-five stacks of a given condition on a single target. Something about it being too much information or too many calculations or something.

I thought it was that it couldn't handle unique caps for individual players not an increased total cap. Just increasing the total cap really wouldn't have an impact on a zerg. The ideal is to make the cap be for a specific player but the server can't handle it. At least that is what makes sense to me.

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#9 Nikephoros

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 02:57 PM

Condition damage is in a weird place in pve for another reason, namely balance.  Right now, a full condi build can achieve it's max dps by running Rabid or in some cases Dire.  The problem is for a direct damage build to put out acceptable DPS you need to orient al 3 of your gear stats to direct damage, whereas a condi build can max out its potential with only one stat (or two if crit procs are important).  If they made it so that Rampager was Condi/power/pre or Power/pre/condi you would get into a situation where Rampager would significantly out DPS full berserker.  If you remove the condi cap, a team of Rabid Engineers and Necros would significantly out DPS direct damage builds, and they do it while having a defensive gear stat.

tldr; berserker/assassins builds only do good damage by sacrificing all offensive capability to get good dps, whereas a condi build can get reasonably good dps without sacrificing defensive stats.  Any more to make condi damage more powerful in pve could result in a situation where a Dire condi tank is able to out dps a full glass cannon, which is quite paradoxical.

#10 Kuskah

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:02 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 07 March 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Condition damage is in a weird place in pve for another reason, namely balance.  Right now, a full condi build can achieve it's max dps by running Rabid or in some cases Dire.  The problem is for a direct damage build to put out acceptable DPS you need to orient al 3 of your gear stats to direct damage, whereas a condi build can max out its potential with only one stat (or two if crit procs are important).  If they made it so that Rampager was Condi/power/pre or Power/pre/condi you would get into a situation where Rampager would significantly out DPS full berserker.  If you remove the condi cap, a team of Rabid Engineers and Necros would significantly out DPS direct damage builds, and they do it while having a defensive gear stat.

tldr; berserker/assassins builds only do good damage by sacrificing all offensive capability to get good dps, whereas a condi build can get reasonably good dps without sacrificing defensive stats.  Any more to make condi damage more powerful in pve could result in a situation where a Dire condi tank is able to out dps a full glass cannon, which is quite paradoxical.

Haven't played my necro (full Rabid) in a while but my warrior in full Berserker's can take quite a few hits, so I'd assume that armor type plays quite a big role in defense, more so than Toughness/Vitality stacking.

I just wish they'd make damaging conditions (burning, poison, bleeding...) do somehow calculated direct damage in case the stacks are full or the enemy is condition resistant like the knights.

#11 Nikephoros

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:46 PM

Toughness and Armor together are used to calculate damage reduction.  A condition character in full Rabid or Dire will be extremely tanky and their damage output wouldnt be significantly lower than one in Rampagers.  This is, incidentally, why the pvp condition meta exists and somewhat dumpsters direct damage builds that don't bring OTT condition cleanses.  Condition characters only have to put one stat into damage and can go full tanky for the rest whereas direct damage characters have to go full glass to do any sort of good damage.  

It has been said before that there is some kind of risk/reward trade off in terms of dps, where you get more dps the less tanky you go.  Debating whether or not the current level is a bit skewed is fine, but it would be 10x worse if conditions were buffed to the point where full Rabid did even close to the dps of full zerker.  That would be all reward with absolutely minimal risk.

#12 Brandon the Don

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 05:05 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 07 March 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Toughness and Armor together are used to calculate damage reduction.  A condition character in full Rabid or Dire will be extremely tanky and their damage output wouldnt be significantly lower than one in Rampagers.  This is, incidentally, why the pvp condition meta exists and somewhat dumpsters direct damage builds that don't bring OTT condition cleanses.  Condition characters only have to put one stat into damage and can go full tanky for the rest whereas direct damage characters have to go full glass to do any sort of good damage.  

It has been said before that there is some kind of risk/reward trade off in terms of dps, where you get more dps the less tanky you go.  Debating whether or not the current level is a bit skewed is fine, but it would be 10x worse if conditions were buffed to the point where full Rabid did even close to the dps of full zerker.  That would be all reward with absolutely minimal risk.

And it should never be, exactly as you told in your post there has to be a risk/reward system tied to damage...

Point now is though, in the current PvE as we know it, gimping yourself to do less damage is simply not an option in coordinated groups for the simple reasons that there is no punnishment for stacking and meleeing the crap out of stuff - you don't need the DoT, since you can just maintain direct damage with the help of blinds, reflects or boons which allow you to take more damage or dodge more often...

In order to make condition builds "viable" is a situation where there has to be too much of a risk to engage in close combat all of the time - though I expect people to rage about it when that happens, only resulting in dumbed down content once more (or it is simply never done since the reward is not there)...
I would've wanted to get my hopes up for new dungeons with some kind of a system like this, but looking back at what came after the Fractals patch (what was delivered in the LS), I do not get my hopes up...

Increasing the damage is simply a no no - Then instead of a zerker meta we go to a Condi/Pizza meta, and to be fair, I do not see which one I prefer...




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