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[Reddit] Are We All Equal?


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#1 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 05:52 PM

http://www.reddit.co...e_we_all_equal/

Crazylegsmurphy said:

I don't think anyone will deny that ANet often releases buggy, and/or broken updates. And while this is a completely separate discussion, I want to discuss how it affects fairness.

When the new patches go live, players have between two and four weeks to experience the content. Unfortunately not everyone has the luxury of logging in on day one, and playing for hours and hours.

The problem is that between ANet changing the rules, fixing issues, and designing questionable content, many players find themselves unable to compete/succeed.

Here is an example.  

ANet releases a new patch. In this patch players are required to defeat three main bosses. The reward for their effort is loot and an achievement.

On day one, hundreds of players join up in a giant Zerg, and kill all three bosses. They get their loot, and achievements, and move on. A few days later, ANet decides that's not how they want players to do the event, and so they release a hot fix that discourages this behaviour.

A few days later, other players log in to find a much more difficult task. Not only are they unable to defeat the bosses using the same method as the previous group of players, but they're also faced with the issue that due to scaling issues, they might not even stand a chance.

So, these players now face the reality that they may never see the conclusion to a storyline that they've been participating in for over a year.


My point here is that I don't think ANet understands how detrimental it is for some players, to release content this way. I think it it unfair that unless you have the time to dedicate to being there on patch day, for hours, you risk missing out on content.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Do you feel it is okay for ANet to change the rules of the game after the fact, making it harder for some? Do you feel the events are designed with all players in mind, or just the early adopters?

Top comment:

ryanmr said:

I am college student while working slightly less than part time and my evenings are free occasionally. My friend works full time.

I have completed the stories and the majority of the achievements for all the content in the LS recently. My friend has hardly made a dent. I read reddit here all the time, I know what's happening story wise, community wise, patch wise, and so on. My friend does not.

He told me, logging into a ruined lion's arch without direction a week after the initial wave died down wasn't very fun. He played a little bit and then just left.

We're already into the second week of Scarlet's end. I did that content, my friend has logged in, but these Knights take at least an hour to complete and he rarely has 2+multiple hours to play in a row. He might never get to defeat Scarlet.

Edit: for grammar and sentences making sense.

TLDR: Between hotfixes that alter the nature of the content and the initial surge of activity that trivializes content/achievements due to broken content, players who log in later get a vastly different experience which creates less enjoyment in the content and a smaller likelihood to complete before the 2-4 week time expires because once you've hunted the achievement, unless there's Monty Haul levels of loot, the content's not worth pursuing beyond the achievement.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#2 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 06:04 PM

This is a valid concern. The question "How to fix this?" however is difficult. The simplest method is to, periodically ( weekly ) update the content to make it easier and easier to complete simply because of the notion and understanding that most players will be gone by then anyway. The hotfixes that make the content harder after the majority of persons completed the activity just don't make sense.

#3 Graka

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 07:08 PM

He may never get to defeat Scarlett even though they added a portal requiring the use of an item that costs less than a good to put together to go into your own solo instance against Scarlett and see the end. I'm sorry this guys friend doesn't have a lot of time to play but that's called life. I don't get to watch hockey games which is something I enjoy cause usually I'm working during the time. I don't complain that they should change times so it cN be convenient for me. Only option I have is watching it after the fact when usually I already have heard the score, but again life. Expecting a game to cater to your every whim and time schedule is just ridiculous. You cant have everything you want and it's not Anets job to give it to you.

And just before someone tries to use the ol they should have tested before releasing argument. Any true coder knows you can test all you want you won't find the real bugs till it goes fully live, even ptr's don't find everything . Case and point every game that uses a ptr has issues when the patch goes live and in many cases even worse than anything I've ever seen from anet.

And with are we all equal, no we are not. Sometimes the first day people get luck with events, sometimes not, and sometimes they get nothing at all. Sometimes those that show up later Nd get lucky or not or nothing at all. There are way too many factors to even try to come up with total blanket solutions without living in a fairy tale.

Edit for clarity

Edited by Graka, 10 March 2014 - 07:19 PM.


#4 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 07:17 PM

View PostGraka, on 10 March 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

He may never get to defeat Scarlett even though they added a portal requiring the use of an item that costs less than a good to put together to go into your own solo instance against Scarlett and see the end. I'm sorry this guys friend doesn't have a lot of time to play but that's called life. I don't get to watch hockey games which is something I enjoy cause usually I'm working during the time. I don't complain that they should change times so it cN be convenient for me. Only option I have is watching it after the fact when usually I already have heard the score, but again life. Expecting a game to cater to your every whim and time schedule is just ridiculous. You cant have everything you want and it's not Anets job to give it to you.

And just before someone tries to use the ol they should have tested before releasing argument. Any true coder knows you can test all you want you won't find the real bugs till it goes fully live, even ptr's don't find everything . Case and point every game that uses a ptr has issues when the patch goes live and in many cases even worse than anything I've ever seen from anet

It's not about watching the content, it's about doing it and getting the achievement.  And of course, there are plenty of games that don't do 'temporary content' where you can complete it later and even leave it in without disrupting other players... WoW's phasing tech comes to mind.  ESO will apparently have phasing as well.

Finally, lol "any true coder."  No, obviously you won't find a lot of bugs unless you extensively test all use-cases.  The problem is, these aren't generally bugs in a traditional sense, they are design flaws with scale and an inability to even closely reproduce their live environments.  "This algorithm will work!" except for that one edge-case where it'll become a mess.  They don't have a PTR, they have a much smaller, private invite-only test team that doesn't even come close to reproducing the conditions of a real server on launch night.

But all I honestly took away from your response is... "It's not a problem worth fixing or trying to fix, sucks to be you!"  Wonderful empathy.

Edited by MazingerZ, 10 March 2014 - 07:18 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#5 Konzacelt

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 07:19 PM

Solution: 1) repeatable storyline instances, and 2) storyline that can be played on your schedule

#6 Graka

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 07:24 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 10 March 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

It's not about watching the content, it's about doing it and getting the achievement.  And of course, there are plenty of games that don't do 'temporary content' where you can complete it later and even leave it in without disrupting other players... WoW's phasing tech comes to mind.  ESO will apparently have phasing as well.

Finally, lol "any true coder."  No, obviously you won't find a lot of bugs unless you extensively test all use-cases.  The problem is, these aren't generally bugs in a traditional sense, they are design flaws with scale and an inability to even closely reproduce their live environments.  "This algorithm will work!" except for that one edge-case where it'll become a mess.  They don't have a PTR, they have a much smaller, private invite-only test team that doesn't even come close to reproducing the conditions of a real server on launch night.

But all I honestly took away from your response is... "It's not a problem worth fixing or trying to fix, sucks to be you!"  Wonderful empathy.

Name me one game since 2000 that released on any platform without requiring a patch to fix unforeseen issues when it went live, I'll wait while you try to find one. And no, I have no empathy, you cant have everything you want, this is a fact of life. I don't currently have a legendary, been trying to get one for awhile, but I'm not going to scream that anet needs to give me every piece of content in the game cause blah blah blah I'm special and unique. Sometimes you don't get everything, if you cant put in the time, then these are things you have to accept.

View PostKonzacelt, on 10 March 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Solution: 1) repeatable storyline instances, and 2) storyline that can be played on your schedule

Is a repeatable storyline instance, and is playable anytime in these two weeks of this patch, its on the southwest side of Lions Arch, requires the creation of an exotic bladed backpiece to get inside anytime you want and you can do and see the ending of the Scarlett storyline.

#7 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 07:32 PM

View PostGraka, on 10 March 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

Name me one game since 2000 that released on any platform without requiring a patch to fix unforeseen issues when it went live, I'll wait while you try to find one. And no, I have no empathy, you cant have everything you want, this is a fact of life. I don't currently have a legendary, been trying to get one for awhile, but I'm not going to scream that anet needs to give me every piece of content in the game cause blah blah blah I'm special and unique. Sometimes you don't get everything, if you cant put in the time, then these are things you have to accept.

Really?  Every game has bugs.  We're talking about a design flaw.  IE: the fact that content they thought would be difficult is actually trivialized in a live environment, necessitating a change that radically adjusts the user experience between patches.  We're not talking about fixing a missing texture or a broken animation or even a client crash, but a fundamental game design flaw, not software flaw, they felt they needed to change after everyone else got the reward for the 'broken' content.

Secondly, how would you feel if they decided next patch they were going to remove the ability to create legendaries and remove all non-soulbound ones in the next two-week patch?  Clearly, for all your effort, you're not entitled to one, but you don't think that you should be allowed the option to still pursue it and leave the pathway open?

Edit: Also wondering if you ever played SWG and was there for when they changed they completely altered the methodology for unlocking a Jedi...  The original path was a massive grind of maxing out each skill tree in a random order.  A heavy, expensive grind. They completely invalidated that path in one patch and put in the Trials of Obi-wan, nullifying every player who was working their way through the grind and putting them back at start.

Again, you have wonderful empathy with the human race.  "Kitten you, got mine!"

Edited by MazingerZ, 10 March 2014 - 07:39 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#8 Konzacelt

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 07:43 PM

View PostGraka, on 10 March 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

Is a repeatable storyline instance, and is playable anytime in these two weeks of this patch, its on the southwest side of Lions Arch, requires the creation of an exotic bladed backpiece to get inside anytime you want and you can do and see the ending of the Scarlett storyline.

Sorry...meant replayable.  Once the 2 weeks is up you can never ever see it again.  Hope you don't have RL emergencies!  Imho, it is easily one of the worst ideas I've ever seen in an rpg.  The amount of hubris required to think players wouldn't dare miss out on a 2-week cycle is astounding.  The LS idea is cool and innovative and all, but it's not rooted in any kind of rational reality.

#9 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 08:35 PM

View PostGraka, on 10 March 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

He may never get to defeat Scarlett even though they added a portal requiring the use of an item that costs less than a good to put together to go into your own solo instance against Scarlett and see the end. I'm sorry this guys friend doesn't have a lot of time to play but that's called life. I don't get to watch hockey games which is something I enjoy cause usually I'm working during the time. I don't complain that they should change times so it cN be convenient for me. Only option I have is watching it after the fact when usually I already have heard the score, but again life. Expecting a game to cater to your every whim and time schedule is just ridiculous. You cant have everything you want and it's not Anets job to give it to you.

And just before someone tries to use the ol they should have tested before releasing argument. Any true coder knows you can test all you want you won't find the real bugs till it goes fully live, even ptr's don't find everything . Case and point every game that uses a ptr has issues when the patch goes live and in many cases even worse than anything I've ever seen from anet.

And with are we all equal, no we are not. Sometimes the first day people get luck with events, sometimes not, and sometimes they get nothing at all. Sometimes those that show up later Nd get lucky or not or nothing at all. There are way too many factors to even try to come up with total blanket solutions without living in a fairy tale.

Edit for clarity
You are actually correct about the requirement to shift the schedule. Anything and everything with a limited timeline plays out like this whether it be anything from playing a game to watching TV. The reality is that the event ends long before the event actually ends; that is to say that the game itself has it's playerbase active for 4 out of 14 days therefore it would be equivalent to being able to watch the hockey game long after everyone has talked about it and all of your friends will look at you like you're an idiot when you show up bringing up severely old news.

However I believe in understanding this reality players who play days 5~14 should be able to somehow benefit from the lack of people present. Just as events scale upwards perhaps it is time they scaled the opposite direction relative to popularity and general populace itself; there is no reason that enemies should be impossible to defeat on day 8 because a casual player with a "real-life" ( whatever that means ) has played slowly and progressively and by-and-large the majority of players no longer do the content.

There is a severe difference between making an unreasonable acquiescence and creating an unreasonable handicap based on things beyond the player's control.

#10 Azure Skye

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:29 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 10 March 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

You are actually correct about the requirement to shift the schedule. Anything and everything with a limited timeline plays out like this whether it be anything from playing a game to watching TV. The reality is that the event ends long before the event actually ends; that is to say that the game itself has it's playerbase active for 4 out of 14 days therefore it would be equivalent to being able to watch the hockey game long after everyone has talked about it and all of your friends will look at you like you're an idiot when you show up bringing up severely old news.

However I believe in understanding this reality players who play days 5~14 should be able to somehow benefit from the lack of people present. Just as events scale upwards perhaps it is time they scaled the opposite direction relative to popularity and general populace itself; there is no reason that enemies should be impossible to defeat on day 8 because a casual player with a "real-life" ( whatever that means ) has played slowly and progressively and by-and-large the majority of players no longer do the content.

There is a severe difference between making an unreasonable acquiescence and creating an unreasonable handicap based on things beyond the player's control.
I haven't finished the meta from of the two years for Halloween and Wintersday events. You don't see me crying. i know, it was tough doing all of the achievements at the last minute to get the meta, when you don't have time to do it all before the meta goes away. It gives me mixed feeling to do them in a hurry but you know you have stuff on your plate to validate why you missed, sometime you would understand, it's not about the rewards, it the experience that you liked but that i just only me of course. Yes, i miss all of the meta from the pass two years for Halloween and Wintersday event.

Real Life or other things that are  more important then GW2 > GW2's Meta.

Some people complain when it's to hard or to easy and Anet tries to "fix" the difficulty. There are legitimate reasons and others are bleh. Some want to be holding their hands through the content and others want some difficult content to do. Anet tries to find the middle ground, they try sometimes, they get at times and other times, it just missed the mark.

Edited by Azure Skye, 10 March 2014 - 09:31 PM.


#11 Mordakai

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:37 PM

I think the problem is that these events that require large groups of organized people are made more difficult with random overflow servers.

I really do believe by simply giving a choice of overflows would help players find a group that can finish the event.

As it stands, it really is luck and patience.  (And I am not specifically talking about Scarlets end, which has a backdoor).


#12 Nikephoros

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:49 PM

Why do people with a limited schedule feel entitled to be able to have the same amount of experiences as a no-lifer?

#13 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:55 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 10 March 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Why do people with a limited schedule feel entitled to be able to have the same amount of experiences as a no-lifer?

Because their money as good as a no-lifer?  People who don't feel like they can accomplish anything will stop playing, and player-retention is really the only metric that can allow for predictive revenue returns.  A downswing in player retention will inherently lead to lower revenue.

Going back on your original complaint about the difficulty in the game, the game's designed to hit a certain level of mediocrity to have a rather wide customer-base.  Maintaining interest, even amongst the no-skills and lifers, is paramount over making you feel special.

Edited by MazingerZ, 10 March 2014 - 10:05 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#14 typographie

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 10:24 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 10 March 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

And of course, there are plenty of games that don't do 'temporary content' where you can complete it later and even leave it in without disrupting other players... WoW's phasing tech comes to mind.  ESO will apparently have phasing as well.

Personally, I found myself "disrupted" by WoW's phasing solution rather frequently. It chopped up a zone's population and often resulted in confusing situations in groups where members had to recount quests they had/hadn't done weeks or months before.

I work full time. I have no difficulty finding a few hours to finish my achievements within two weeks' time, and in actuality, we frequently have four weeks. Just my own personal experience.

#15 Veji

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:24 PM

Well, ANet doesn't have to do anything for anyone, tbh.  They put content out and "there ya go".  I don't agree with some of the things they do and i think a ton of it could be more intuitive (daily reset timer being one of these, as reset in prime time is just bad practice).  But i digress, adding a daily that counts towards the LS meta is a step in helping casuals to get where they need to be, so it is what it is.

I feel like they're a relatively young group of devs, so quality of life streamlining isn't where it needs to be in a lot of things.  It took Blizzard many years to get it all streamlined, so all i can do is hope that they follow the same suite at some point.

#16 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:04 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 10 March 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

I haven't finished the meta from of the two years for Halloween and Wintersday events. You don't see me crying. i know, it was tough doing all of the achievements at the last minute to get the meta, when you don't have time to do it all before the meta goes away. It gives me mixed feeling to do them in a hurry but you know you have stuff on your plate to validate why you missed, sometime you would understand, it's not about the rewards, it the experience that you liked but that i just only me of course. Yes, i miss all of the meta from the pass two years for Halloween and Wintersday event.

Real Life or other things that are  more important then GW2 > GW2's Meta.

Some people complain when it's to hard or to easy and Anet tries to "fix" the difficulty. There are legitimate reasons and others are bleh. Some want to be holding their hands through the content and others want some difficult content to do. Anet tries to find the middle ground, they try sometimes, they get at times and other times, it just missed the mark.

It isn't so much a matter of entitlement as it is practicality. Something should not be impossible to do because less than one hundred players are willing to play with you when it comes to temporary content; you cannot defeat the Knights in a normal rabble with only 10 ten people on each Knight for instance. All of the successful runs I've had for this current event have had at least 20 on each Knight or at least 60 people total and even then it wasn't really clean.

#17 Epitaph_Blade

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:13 AM

My thoughts on how this should be "fixed":

- Events (aka Weekly releases, or LS) should leave a new chapter on a "campaign", and there should be a version for massive encounters, that allows you to play with a 5 man group, with less rewards or, tokens.

- Living World should be addressed by adding permanent events to the game. Like the scarlet invasions, triple threat, tequatl, etc. So in the end, the game is much richer than when it started. I like events like halloween and wintersday, I don't mind them repeating them, if they make them truly entertaining. Thats a win for casuals, they know that if they miss it this year, they have a chance next year (better than nothing), and also, lets the community build itself around those events.

- Make seasons in the game. If they want the world to be alive, events should last longer, and not be a thing for only 2 weeks. The problem is that they adopted this model because the game itself, is really casual, and after a while, you "don't have things to do", you do, but those things seem boring or grindy. But I think that the more they add content to the game, the periods of time between releases will feel less and less empty, because between those new contents, you will have a pletora of instances ingame, that you can play. Maybe adding more customization would help in extending the amount of things you can do (maybe more cosmetic slots, guild halls with stuff you can build or get to decorate them (or add features), etc) And of course, better pvp.

Edited by Epitaph_Blade, 11 March 2014 - 01:15 AM.


#18 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:17 AM

View PostEpitaph_Blade, on 11 March 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

- Events (aka Weekly releases, or LS) should leave a new chapter on a "campaign", and there should be a version for massive encounters, that allows you to play with a 5 man group, with less rewards or, tokens.
Why extend PUG expectations and barriers to the LS?

#19 Epitaph_Blade

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:43 AM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 March 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

Why extend PUG expectations and barriers to the LS?

Why not?

#20 pumpkin pie

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:07 AM

work 10+- hours daily, play 2-3 hours daily.

I completed the latest living story rewards in 4 days. complete monthly around that time as well. fastest monthly completion (in a weeks time) for me because of all the living story event.

I am very afraid have to say this but, if you are not going to log in to play , you don't get to complaint. yes you bought the game. play it! if not you really don't get to complaint that event is too hard bla bla bla bla.


#21 Datenshi92

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:33 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 10 March 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

Because their money as good as a no-lifer?

I don't want my dedicated hours to the game to be over-looked by some dude who had cents to rub together. If I earned my achievement and rewards then I have the right to flash my rewards around without feeling "cheated". If they want to buy their way through "fame and glory", then let it be something exclusively for them so then we know "this person has money so they bought X, while this one has time so they earned Y."

Games are SUPPOSED to be hobbies, either you dedicate some time into it to get somewhere or you will always be a disadvantage (specially MMOs). Its a no-brainer here. Just because there's micro-transactions doesn't mean you're excused to 'roflstomp' the most dedicated part of a gaming community with your bribes to "victory".

Its not our fault that other's lives are so busy that there's barely enough time to reach the same level of a dedicated gamer. People with no time in their hands want to reach the same level as a dedicated player with minimal effort. Not ok. Ofc they never will and that's the point. No time = no big reward.

Edited by Datenshi92, 11 March 2014 - 10:24 AM.


#22 Arkham Creed

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:00 AM

View PostDatenshi92, on 11 March 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:


Its not our fault that other's lives are so busy that there's barely enough time to reach the same level of a dedicated gamer. Because that's the issue here - people with no time in their hands want to reach the same level as a dedicated player with minimal effort.

That is NOT the issue here. The issue is Arena Net going in and fundamentally altering the very nature of content to the detriment of players who don't have the luxury of a huge zerg to "roflstomp" the content's initial version and thus obtain the rewards with LESS effort. You're defending the wrong camp here; this isn't about casuals wanting to be handed the same prestige as hardcore players. This is about Arena Net over rewarding mindless zergs and then over-buffing that same content AFTER the zerg has moved on. In essence spoon-feeding the sheep and penalizing dedicated and hard working players who have to struggle against the content's intended form and work harder for the rewards that said sheep flaunt like it's nothing because they found an exploit that got fixed. This is no different in my mind than those people shortly after release who found a way to turn tiny bits of karma into massive amounts of gold; and they all got banned, or at least had their ill-gotten loot revoked.

#23 Corsair

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:30 AM

View PostDatenshi92, on 11 March 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:

I'm sorry but that's just the harsh truth.
Is it fair? Nope and the world was never fair to start with.
But this isn't real life, this isn't the world. The worlds created in fiction and in games tend to be fairer than life. The plucky hero gets their significant other, saves the day, and beats the big bad. In games you are given feedback which informs you of the possible effects and consequences of your decisions before they are made and rarely have something completely blindside you without warning. There are exceptions to all of these rules, of course. But by and large they stay true. Fiction imitates life, and is often a more perfect version. And since games are designed, they can be designed to let casuals keep up to some degree.


Now, there has to be a balance. The hardcore player (for the sake of argument I'm using playtime as the deciding variable) will play more and get more done, and should have content/achievements aimed at them. Maybe for doing it a specific number of times or for not getting hit by a specific attack etc. Things of competency and time input. But the base level should be accomplish able by the more casual player, as they should be able to experience the content itself and accomplish it. It sounds like the issue is that it doesn't scale down enough, as the player population drops and there isn't enough for others to complete it.

Solutions are for players to organize and head to a specific server(s) to do it as to ensure it's completion and allowing the content to scale further down than it does at the moment. The first one is essentially herding cats, but not undoable. The second would mean a bit more work for the developers which costs them more money. It would be interesting to see if spending that extra bit would increase casual user fun/satisfaction and possibly revenue.

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#24 MazingerZ

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:25 AM

View PostDatenshi92, on 11 March 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:

I don't want my hard work to over-looked by some dude who had cents to rub together.

You miss the point of my statement.  ArenaNet is interested in paying customers first, and players second.  If you aren't paying, you at least serve the function of making the game populated, but you may as well be a park employee in a mouse suit working for free food and beverages.  ArenaNet's not going to create content intentionally with the intent on segregating the community based on skill, and nominally, time availability.  They're interests lay in maintaining a balance of acceptable challenge to low-barrier to completion to maximize player retention.

The simple fact is that bad players outnumber good players, and their money is just as good as your own.  Developing content for the broader audience is going to get more resources, but that's not to say that hardcore content may not happen.  It just doesn't take as much of a priority.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#25 Satenia

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:38 AM

View PostArkham Creed, on 11 March 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

That is NOT the issue here. The issue is Arena Net going in and fundamentally altering the very nature of content to the detriment of players who don't have the luxury of a huge zerg to "roflstomp" the content's initial version and thus obtain the rewards with LESS effort. You're defending the wrong camp here; this isn't about casuals wanting to be handed the same prestige as hardcore players. This is about Arena Net over rewarding mindless zergs and then over-buffing that same content AFTER the zerg has moved on. In essence spoon-feeding the sheep and penalizing dedicated and hard working players who have to struggle against the content's intended form and work harder for the rewards that said sheep flaunt like it's nothing because they found an exploit that got fixed. This is no different in my mind than those people shortly after release who found a way to turn tiny bits of karma into massive amounts of gold; and they all got banned, or at least had their ill-gotten loot revoked.

Spot on. Ironically, the "no-lifers" (not saying they are, just using previously mentioned terms) being able to sink a good amount of hours into the LS right after its release are the ones getting off easy. They can simply ride on the huge zerg created by the novelty of the content.

The current LS is the perfect example: Initially, you could zerg down the knights with infinite (as much as the map holds) players, the 6-min achievement was bugged as in getting wrongly awarded - where is the challenge?

But when you try to do the event now, you can either camp the map to get into a somewhat organized main-server, or you'll end up in a random overflow that most likely cannot muster enough players to take down all three knights simultaneously.

Personally, I don't get Anets recent obsession with huge open-world encounters. The game doesn't offer the means to actually have a controlled open-world environment, instead we'll just end up with random players in random overflows. Why? They used to pride themselves (still do?) for their event scaling, so why don't the knights scale down properly so they can be done with 10 players per? At least this would still give latecomers a chance to also get the achievements completed...

#26 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:26 AM

As usual the problem is that ANet is closing doors for people. And this time players don't even get a 2 week window, but rather maybe a 3 day window. Can't do it in time? Sucks to be you. Of course there is some value to the point that a player who can't play as much will simply not be able to get as much (achievements etc.), but for those players it's usually ok because in most games they still have something to aim for. Not so in GW2.

View PostDatenshi92, on 11 March 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:

I don't want my hard work to over-looked by some dude who had cents to rub together.
(...)
I'm sorry but that's just the harsh truth.
Is it fair? Nope and the world was never fair to start with.
Two points:

1. Your "hard work" hahahAHAHAHA NEWS FLASH IT'S NOT WORK YOU WERE PLAYING A GAME THE WHOLE TIME :lol:

2. If it's not about being fair then why should your efforts not be overlooked?

#27 Kamatsu

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:07 AM

View PostArkham Creed, on 11 March 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

That is NOT the issue here. The issue is Arena Net going in and fundamentally altering the very nature of content to the detriment of players who don't have the luxury of a huge zerg to "roflstomp" the content's initial version and thus obtain the rewards with LESS effort. You're defending the wrong camp here; this isn't about casuals wanting to be handed the same prestige as hardcore players. This is about Arena Net over rewarding mindless zergs and then over-buffing that same content AFTER the zerg has moved on.

This is the way I read what the OP brought up - the fact that core mechanics of an encounter were changed sometime after release, so that those who came after the patch have a harder time completing it than those who were there at the start. The way I view things like this is: If all things are equal, then anyone should have an equal chance at completing the goal. What do I mean by this? Quite simple - Given the same factors, an event should be equally completable no matter what time the content/event is attempted.

So this means that if a zerg of 100 players is able to easily complete an event at the start of a patch's life-cycle, then a similar zerg of 100 players (all geared, skilled, traited, etc approx the same as the 1st 100) should be able to complete the same event with the same ease at a later time in the patch's life-cycle.

However, what appears to have happened is that at some point after the release of the current patch, the mechanics of the 3-Knight fight were changed to make it harder to complete, due to how easily the zerg was completing it at the start. This means that all things being equal (ie similar # of players, all approx geared the same, etc), the player who now tries this event will find it a lot more difficult to complete.

This issue has nothing to do with casual vs hardcore. It's all about "all things equal, everyone should have the same chance at completing something" IMO. Yes people who come in later and/or play less will naturally have a harder time (due to less ppl trying the events, less ppl around, etc)... but they should still have equal chance (based on mechanics of the event) at completing it. This is no longer the case, and I believe ANet needs to take a look at what caused this, why it happened and what they can do to ensure it does not happen again in the future.

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#28 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:15 AM

View PostKamatsu, on 11 March 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

This issue has nothing to do with casual vs hardcore. It's all about "all things equal, everyone should have the same chance at completing something" IMO. Yes people who come in later and/or play less will naturally have a harder time (due to less ppl trying the events, less ppl around, etc)... but they should still have equal chance (based on mechanics of the event) at completing it. This is no longer the case, and I believe ANet needs to take a look at what caused this, why it happened and what they can do to ensure it does not happen again in the future.
The sad thing is that they don't care. Colin already said that people who miss out on LS content missed out on it and that's that - what's there to stopping them from extending that to "LS content that the zerg is at right now"?
I don't see the profit motive in improving the design that much just to keep the stragglers and I don't think that ANet will either, especially since most of them stay on the game anyway.

#29 Datenshi92

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:19 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 March 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

1. Your "hard work" hahahAHAHAHA NEWS FLASH IT'S NOT WORK YOU WERE PLAYING A GAME THE WHOLE TIME :lol:


I KNOW I'm playing a game, it was a metaphor to describe dedicated hours to the game. Just because I'm not being paid for it doesn't mean I can't consider it some form of "work", if it's some form of challenge to obtain then I, and everyone else, can call it work. Mastering art can be considered a form of "work" yet it may or may not give me a paycheck at the end of the month. Its the effort into it that gives its name.

Tssh, grammar nitpickers... :P

Edited by Datenshi92, 11 March 2014 - 10:25 AM.


#30 rusticgamer

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:20 AM

I don't really get why people qq about stuff like this. The game isn't perfect... nothing and noone is. You have to accept the situation and make the most of it. I've been at the release of the patch and guess what the knights were bugged and I spent 3h doing it and I didn't even get on top of the breahmaker or all the drops that I should've gotten. I also attent 2 universities and time is precious for me. But did I qq or get annoyed or upset? No! It's just how it is! Nothing more nothing less. And btw anet is trying to remove the zerg mentality lately in case you haven't noticed. And if peopel don't complain that it's too "hard" they complain that it's too easy. I guess what I'm trying to say is that people will always find something to complain about. Just take it as it is.

Also you only need the 1st version of the spinal backpiece which is really easy, fast and cheap to get to finish the story and the prime light content that you need is not that big or amazing to have an importance in the storyline...




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