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Death and Taxes: GW2


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#1 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:37 PM

Do you think that the Death Penalty and Gold Sinks in the game cost too little? Address each one separately if you wish.

I personally think both are too low; the game is actually too profitable for it's own good and encourages reckless gameplay and frivolous character investments with no particular weight on decision making.

#2 gopeone

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:57 PM

I don't know about taxes,but Death that's yours to have.But who they are going to do?
They can just increase,but will work for the best?They can make it go up as you die,but that can have its own problems.
They can make  price it on the place you died,but will that help? Or they can make places that pay to enter but when you die you get kicked and have to pay again,but that can be its own pain.

Edited by gopeone, 11 March 2014 - 01:00 PM.


#3 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:00 PM

I think that the penalty for dying should be tied to game mechanics, not gold. GW1 did it right IMO.

#4 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:37 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 March 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

I think that the penalty for dying should be tied to game mechanics, not gold. GW1 did it right IMO.
What mechanic though? Experience is frivolous. Revival Sickness?

#5 Konzacelt

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:44 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 March 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

What mechanic though? Experience is frivolous. Revival Sickness?

I would say something affecting abilities, like a 3% stat penalty for 10 minutes.  /shrug

It's hard to say because GW2 scaling balance is more fragile than a glass jaw.

Edited by Konzacelt, 11 March 2014 - 01:44 PM.


#6 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:02 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 11 March 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

I would say something affecting abilities, like a 3% stat penalty for 10 minutes.  /shrug

It's hard to say because GW2 scaling balance is more fragile than a glass jaw.
Perhaps upon death a piece of your armor breaks in totality ( instead of being damaged and then breaking ) and instead of just losing the defense you lose the entire bonus of the armor ( including runes ). That would make dying suck a lot more without having to fiddle with stats directly because you're right, it's pretty fragile.

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 11 March 2014 - 02:03 PM.


#7 Andemius

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:21 PM

I can only think of re-traiting which is a pain, and I think we ought not have to pay for it, and should be able to do it anywhere that's not a dungeon or wvw (outside of combat).

#8 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:24 PM

D3 not only has a 10% durability loss on death, you also damage your gear by simply playing the game. In theory, this is worse than Hitler. In practice, I don't mind it. I'd prefer if it didn't exist, but I can live with it.
In GW2 though, I gave up on using waypoints. Unless I REALLY need to map-travel, I walk. I also won't put myself into positions where I'd die, even if that would save someone else. I also don't retrait.

GW2's penalties and taxes aren't that bad (as mentioned, D3 has a worse penalty for death than GW2), but they FEEL bad.  I've heard this from other players, and I fully agree with it, that GW2 gold sinks make you feel uncomfortable. I don't know: maybe it's because the game does so many things right, that these then feel really bad in comparison, or maybe it's just the fact that the game feels utterly unrewarding and then the game additionally takes shit from you: it's like kicking a guy that's down.



The penalties aren't bad, but they are certainly making the game less fun to play.

#9 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:39 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 11 March 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

D3 not only has a 10% durability loss on death, you also damage your gear by simply playing the game. In theory, this is worse than Hitler. In practice, I don't mind it. I'd prefer if it didn't exist, but I can live with it.
In GW2 though, I gave up on using waypoints. Unless I REALLY need to map-travel, I walk. I also won't put myself into positions where I'd die, even if that would save someone else. I also don't retrait.

GW2's penalties and taxes aren't that bad (as mentioned, D3 has a worse penalty for death than GW2), but they FEEL bad.  I've heard this from other players, and I fully agree with it, that GW2 gold sinks make you feel uncomfortable. I don't know: maybe it's because the game does so many things right, that these then feel really bad in comparison, or maybe it's just the fact that the game feels utterly unrewarding and then the game additionally takes shit from you: it's like kicking a guy that's down.



The penalties aren't bad, but they are certainly making the game less fun to play.

Well this is curious! So you want fewer / no taxes.

Also it's funny you bring up D3 because I was just playing Dark Cloud ( one ) the other day and I swear there's a world of difference between the punishment levels. When an item lost all of it's durability it broke, that's it, gone for ever, done. D1 I think was like that too and a lot of games that were older made you do that kind of thing; in reality modern D3 types with durability and traction equations are pretty friendly. It just sounds scary.

Reason I respond to that is because you bring up a really, really interesting vantage point I had not thought of: emotions. I think the game is too lenient based on hard mathematical proofs and evidence but I never considered how I "felt" about death and now I can see why people don't like the WP system. I guess it's all frame of reference.

View PostAndemius, on 11 March 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

I can only think of re-traiting which is a pain, and I think we ought not have to pay for it, and should be able to do it anywhere that's not a dungeon or wvw (outside of combat).
I think you're right about this.

#10 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:42 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 March 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

What mechanic though? Experience is frivolous. Revival Sickness?
Yeah revival sickness, as in lowered stats after revival. Loss of traits which can only be regained by visiting a peaceful area or maybe regained over time.

Taking away gold is a nonpenalty which only serves as a very inefficient gold sink.

#11 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:06 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 March 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Yeah revival sickness, as in lowered stats after revival. Loss of traits which can only be regained by visiting a peaceful area or maybe regained over time.

Taking away gold is a nonpenalty which only serves as a very inefficient gold sink.
So how long does it last and how does this work in dungeons? Especially the loss of traits.

#12 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:17 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 March 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

So how long does it last and how does this work in dungeons? Especially the loss of traits.
While in the dungeon you don't get anything back. You only get it back in the main world. Either you have to return to a restful area where you can talk to an NPC for a full return or you can wait, and slowly get it back. Earning xp speeds up the process. Wait, you can reclaim death penalty in dungeons as well, by earning xp, but not by waiting.

#13 Nikephoros

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:18 PM

I would like a system similar to FoW and UW from GW1: costs gold up front to enter dungeon, no way points to revive at if you die.  If the group wipes, you exit the dungeon.  A lot better functionally as a gold sink, and makes the dungeon encounters much less trivial.  Right now the penalty for your mesmer missing the feedback at lupi is 2 silver of repair fees and 30 second spent running back from the waypoint.  If that penalty was the 1g entry fee to the dungeon and having to start all over, many an interesting choice would be made.

#14 Mordakai

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:23 PM

Bah, the true Death Penalty is already too high.

If you die in an event like the Marionette or even the Hologram....  there is no waypoint back to the instance.  So, in Marionette you could only join another lane (with a cooldown that prevented you from entering the gate).

With penalties like that, there is no room for error in certain Living Story events.

#15 MazingerZ

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:32 PM

The system is perfectly fine for the hodge-podge of cooperation they put in the game.  Prior to the unlimited dailies in WoW and gold inflation wasn't that bad, dying with high-end gear was a rather expensive issue.  At that is a game where unless you're doing the extreme end of content, dying shouldn't happen unless you are completely clueless.  And the game facilitated grouping so well that they added a debuff for ducking out mid-run.  That most people gladly ate if it looked like it was going to eat into their gold and time.

For a game that doesn't facilitate grouping anywhere near as well and where most of the content is largely a chaotic clusterfsck of visuals that inhibit performance unless you're in a group that can perfectly choreograph and communicate, penalties for death should be kept at a minimum.

Simply, the issue with the game's lack of sinks beyond WP is that gold is an endless resource that's not limited by time-gating and really only has a few bleeds like the TP tax and Waypoints, or massive purchases such as Cultural Armor because they can't attach too much value to it outside of being the only tradeable currency in the game, which doesn't bleed it off quickly.  It otherwise does little to bleed money in an unobtrusive way like item wear.

Edited by MazingerZ, 11 March 2014 - 03:33 PM.

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#16 Satenia

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:40 PM

Personally I think that a lot of difficulty is removed from (dungeon) content simply by bursting it down before it has much of a chance to react. Yes, I'm talking about the dps/zerker-meta of course and how it trivializes content if executed properly.

Therefore, I actually think that at this point increasing death/taxes would be a step in the wrong direction. With such a move, you'd only promote the above (something Anet seems desperately trying to get changed...) and kill the little variety that still exists today. Additionally, you'd also promote the usual class, gear, ap and whatever else elitism. If there were harder penalties to a wipe, I'd sure as hell be more picky about who I'll bring along. To me, this goes against the whole trinity-less concept.

Ultimately, this changes nothing for organized groups and ruins everything for PUGs. Not the kind of change I would like to see promoted. I fully expect this game to be more "laid-back" than certain other MMOs, actually this was one of the main reasons I picked it in the first place.

If at some point in the future we actually get build and gear variety that makes several play-styles to be viable, then a GW1-like system with stats DP or entry fees might sound more appealing to me.

(For reference, I loved playing FoW, UW and DoA back in GW1... but only cause I could play the content anytime with my heroes offering a build-synergy through 64 skills consisting out of dps, crowd control, movement, healing, protection, and so on...)

#17 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:50 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 March 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

While in the dungeon you don't get anything back. You only get it back in the main world. Either you have to return to a restful area where you can talk to an NPC for a full return or you can wait, and slowly get it back. Earning xp speeds up the process. Wait, you can reclaim death penalty in dungeons as well, by earning xp, but not by waiting.
This sounds really interesting. So you would likely lose your traits in order of tier which will indeed break some builds. So is it one at a time or a whole level such as all Grandmaster traits first, etc. down until you have none?

#18 Nikephoros

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:59 PM

View PostSatenia, on 11 March 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Personally I think that a lot of difficulty is removed from (dungeon) content simply by bursting it down before it has much of a chance to react. Yes, I'm talking about the dps/zerker-meta of course and how it trivializes content if executed properly.

Therefore, I actually think that at this point increasing death/taxes would be a step in the wrong direction. With such a move, you'd only promote the above (something Anet seems desperately trying to get changed...) and kill the little variety that still exists today. Additionally, you'd also promote the usual class, gear, ap and whatever else elitism. If there were harder penalties to a wipe, I'd sure as hell be more picky about who I'll bring along. To me, this goes against the whole trinity-less concept.

Ultimately, this changes nothing for organized groups and ruins everything for PUGs. Not the kind of change I would like to see promoted. I fully expect this game to be more "laid-back" than certain other MMOs, actually this was one of the main reasons I picked it in the first place.

If at some point in the future we actually get build and gear variety that makes several play-styles to be viable, then a GW1-like system with stats DP or entry fees might sound more appealing to me.

(For reference, I loved playing FoW, UW and DoA back in GW1... but only cause I could play the content anytime with my heroes offering a build-synergy through 64 skills consisting out of dps, crowd control, movement, healing, protection, and so on...)

I disagree,  If the penalty for a wipe is losing gold paid up front and losing progress the "bad zerker" would have to properly evaluate their choices.  I'm sure a lot of them have the stack and dps and if we wipe we can try again mentality, but if there is no "try again" they will have to make careful choices.  I think it would promote people playing more defensive specs, and taking less "balls out" offensive risks.

But you are right, the good players would continue to play dps builds and continue to speed clear.  It would be the people who SHOULDNT be playing dps builds who will have to adapt.  That's good right?

#19 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:59 PM

GW1's system was good IMO.

#20 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:18 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 March 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

This sounds really interesting. So you would likely lose your traits in order of tier which will indeed break some builds. So is it one at a time or a whole level such as all Grandmaster traits first, etc. down until you have none?
I'd take away either 5 or 10 points from each trait line per death (so every time you die every trait line drop one step/half-step), but would need math and playtesting to find exact amounts.

View PostBeyond Freedom, on 11 March 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

GW1's system was good IMO.
Yeah I aim my suggestion at being similar to GW1's.

Edited by raspberry jam, 11 March 2014 - 04:19 PM.


#21 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:25 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 11 March 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

But you are right, the good players would continue to play dps builds and continue to speed clear.  It would be the people who SHOULDNT be playing dps builds who will have to adapt.  That's good right?
No. There is a stark difference between rewarding skill and punishing the lack of and this definitely punishes the lack of. "You're not good enough? You can't play." Since gold is not directly tied to skill the toll does nothing but ensure people never get better at the content because they get never get far enough except through expensive successive runs to actually make something of it.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 March 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

I'd take away either 5 or 10 points from each trait line per death (so every time you die every trait line drop one step/half-step), but would need math and playtesting to find exact amounts.
So at 5 per death you could die a maximum of 6 times before you lost all of your traits. What happens after trait loss?

#22 Nikephoros

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:28 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 March 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

No. There is a stark difference between rewarding skill and punishing the lack of and this definitely punishes the lack of. "You're not good enough? You can't play." Since gold is not directly tied to skill the toll does nothing but ensure people never get better at the content because they get never get far enough except through expensive successive runs to actually make something of it.

You thought FoW and UW were failures, then?

#23 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:42 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 11 March 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

You thought FoW and UW were failures, then?
Different game. Different rules. In my time as a player of many games and a solver of many puzzles I have learned not to make the mistake of comparing different systems. The mechanics were far more conducive to a toll system in GW1.

#24 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:46 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 March 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

So at 5 per death you could die a maximum of 6 times before you lost all of your traits. What happens after trait loss?
Either you keep losing other stats or you get booted from the dungeon and have to restart.

Of course in many cases this would require a restructure of dungeons.

Edited by raspberry jam, 11 March 2014 - 04:47 PM.


#25 Konzacelt

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:56 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 March 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

Different game. Different rules. In my time as a player of many games and a solver of many puzzles I have learned not to make the mistake of comparing different systems. The mechanics were far more conducive to a toll system in GW1.

That's a cop out.  He's merely asking if you should punish bad play.  What's wrong with doing it like that?

Edited by Konzacelt, 11 March 2014 - 04:57 PM.


#26 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:09 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 11 March 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

That's a cop out.  He's merely asking if you should punish bad play.  What's wrong with doing it like that?
Punishing bad play requires the player to want to play. An upfront cost is nothing more than a "Do Not Enter" for players who are not confident. They never try because they know they may fail. On the other hand the good players are not exactly the shining beacons of love and peace as we can see with the huge LFG system problems therefore the odds that they will just "take on" those who are not outfitted as they see fit with X ability in skill just shrinks the odds of people getting in even more.

What was one thing you could do in GW1 that you cannot in GW2? Bring your own heroes. Worried about synergy? Don't.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 March 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Either you keep losing other stats or you get booted from the dungeon and have to restart.

Of course in many cases this would require a restructure of dungeons.
It sounds fun. Well I say that now but the moment I lose Grenadier ...

Edited by gw2guruaccount, 11 March 2014 - 05:09 PM.


#27 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:20 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 March 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

It sounds fun. Well I say that now but the moment I lose Grenadier ...
And the next moment you go talk to a guy in town and then you have it back. The main thing is that you need to restart from the beginning of the dungeon. IMO death (not dying once but proving to be a failure) should mean that you have to start over. The removal of your progress into the dungeon should be the actual penalty. It should be like "you lost, get out of here!". Focused on the game and what happens in the game.

Edited by raspberry jam, 11 March 2014 - 05:20 PM.


#28 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:27 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 March 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

And the next moment you go talk to a guy in town and then you have it back. The main thing is that you need to restart from the beginning of the dungeon. IMO death (not dying once but proving to be a failure) should mean that you have to start over. The removal of your progress into the dungeon should be the actual penalty. It should be like "you lost, get out of here!". Focused on the game and what happens in the game.
I do agree with that. The aspect of losing time as punishment is a strong deterrent. It also wouldn't scare the new away.

I guess the only change I would make is to allow the person at the dungeon entrance to wipe away your penalties instead of going back to town just because.

The One-Shot Challenge is a good thing. While I am aware that it still will cause LFG issues I think it would be viable.

#29 Nikephoros

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:28 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 11 March 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

Different game. Different rules. In my time as a player of many games and a solver of many puzzles I have learned not to make the mistake of comparing different systems. The mechanics were far more conducive to a toll system in GW1.

That is a pretty insubstantial response.  There is no real reason why ressing at waypoints is allowed in the gw2 except to make the dungeons easier.  An entry fee would be debatable, because it greatly discourages pugging, but I don't see a particular reason to allow waypoint ressing besides making the dungeons significantly easier.

#30 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:18 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 11 March 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

That is a pretty insubstantial response.
So we went from the entry fee to the WP thing. The WP thing being removed is fine thus the focus on the debatable part.




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