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Why Healing Power Sucks, By WoodenPotato's (also bad mob design)


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#1 MazingerZ

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 03:42 PM



Reddit thread: http://www.reddit.co...ng_power_sucks/

tso said:

The problem is not the numbers, it is the ham fisted mob design.

We can see this clearly when a mob gets zerg scaled, as it magnifies how ANet designs mobs.

They don't do even damage over time, they do almost no damage for most of the period and then drops a, supposedly telegraphed, spike attack on their target.

This massively favors dodge and player reflexes over character build, as the damage output is specifically tuned to severely punish any build that do not dodge.

WP mentioned seeing tanky builds reaching 30000-40000 health. There have been reports here and on the forum of single attacks by aetherblades doing that much in a AOE. And you can have multiple such mobs spawning in short order in various events.

End result is that the game goes from being a RPG to being a bullet hell action game with a very awkward camera position.

The irony is that if you pop over to the SPVP side, they are screaming their lungs out about invincible tanks spamming conditions everywhere. Meaning that the very same numbers have very different outcomes depending on who you are facing in combat, meaning that the issue is with mob design rather than the numbers flying around.

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#2 master21

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 04:09 PM

First
*snip*
Second
Why pve mechanic based around dodge is bad? Why stacking healing and other "tanky" stuff is good?

Edited by Archaes, 14 March 2014 - 04:55 PM.
Just because it's a quote doesn't make it appropriate.


#3 Konzacelt

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 04:09 PM

"This massively favors dodge and player reflexes over character build, as the damage output is specifically tuned to severely punish any build that do not dodge."

Werd.

#4 Naevius

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 04:39 PM

Law of un-anticipated consequences:

You want more active combat, so you put in dodging. You can't give people unlimited dodges, or it becomes meaningless, so you limit them. But if limited dodges are going to be worth using at opportune moments, there needs to be something worth dodging, so you make mobs do spike damage. But that means there is little or no attrition...

#5 MazingerZ

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 04:53 PM

View Postmaster21, on 14 March 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

First
Second
Why pve mechanic based around dodge is bad? Why stacking healing and other "tanky" stuff is good?

To your second, because it presents the question of why bother including 'tanky mechanics' if they don't matter?

The dodge mechanic isn't bad until its trivialized other forms of damage mitigation like healing, vitality and toughness.  Much in the same way reflects do.

Like back in Vanilla WoW when rogues and DPS warriors discovered that weapon-skill actually eclipsed other stats like attack power and critical strike, because weapon-skill overcame the 'glancing blows' which reduced damage by 25%.  It was easier to get back that lost damage than raising your stats and still losing a bit to that reduction.  It also over-emphasized talent-builds and items that could grant additional weapon-skill.  Its an issue they fixed because of the over-emphasis on one stat over another that was trivializing other items in the game.

Edited by Feathermoore, 15 March 2014 - 01:57 AM.
Removed deleted content

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#6 Gyre

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 04:53 PM

You give it attrition by tying dodging and attacking to the same endurance bar so you can do one or the other in rapid succession but not both.  This also requires: reducing the amount of endurance consumed per dodge, giving enemies more frequent lower damage attacks to encourage dodging over attacking and fixing telegraphs by removing particle effects.  Now where have I seen all this before...

#7 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:02 PM

Is this an assault on healing power in all PvE/Dungeon Coop or just in zergs?

#8 gopeone

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:04 PM

The guy can read a wiki and suddenly  his a master builder.He plays a berserker elementalist,he know jack shit about support.Problem is not the healing,but lack of support.Because support is more than healing,but the proper buffing and removing of conditions.It still has a big problems in guild wars 2,being that they copped the ideas of support and control from Guild wars  but didn't make them work as well.

Edited by gopeone, 14 March 2014 - 05:09 PM.


#9 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:07 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 14 March 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

To your second, because it presents the question of why bother including 'tanky mechanics' if they don't matter?

They do.

The classic way of healing is that we use it as a separate function for survival. In GW2 this is not the case; healing power and toughness are directly intertwined ( vitality is not ) as they simply increase your life expectancy depending on your behaviors. For instance healing power in PvE works passively not by letting you stand there and dish it as you take it but instead rewards you for being mobile and tactical. The reason the enemies attack in 3~4s spikes is deliberately to allow your HoT to work so while in other games your healing was less of a tactical tool and more of a standardized role in this game it's the opposite.

The playerbase is very used to the previous modeling where heals were made to prevent, not prolong, the inevitable. You healed because if you didn't you would die. Obviously not taking the signet that heals your class or whatever mechanic it may be will not end your life. You can win all content. There is no "Heal Check". There is no "Party Check". This isn't yo' grandma's WoW anymore.

#10 MisterB

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:15 PM

View PostGyre, on 14 March 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

Now where have I seen all this before...

ArenaNet needs to play Dark/Demon's Souls. Or, you know, there is this old game called Guild Wars with a resource system called "energy" that could have been used (Energy was used in development and abandoned because: potions.) to balance skill activation and dodging. I think that old game even had fewer particle effects.

#11 MazingerZ

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:15 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 14 March 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

They do.

The classic way of healing is that we use it as a separate function for survival. In GW2 this is not the case; healing power and toughness are directly intertwined ( vitality is not ) as they simply increase your life expectancy depending on your behaviors. For instance healing power in PvE works passively not by letting you stand there and dish it as you take it but instead rewards you for being mobile and tactical. The reason the enemies attack in 3~4s spikes is deliberately to allow your HoT to work so while in other games your healing was less of a tactical tool and more of a standardized role in this game it's the opposite.

The playerbase is very used to the previous modeling where heals were made to prevent, not prolong, the inevitable. You healed because if you didn't you would die. Obviously not taking the signet that heals your class or whatever mechanic it may be will not end your life. You can win all content. There is no "Heal Check". There is no "Party Check". This isn't yo' grandma's WoW anymore.

I think you missed the part about mobs that can cleave through even the tankiest character in one-hit.  Healing power mitigates those instances where you end up hit by something that hasn't scaled to OHKO-levels, but otherwise its pretty useless.  Did you watch the video?  Because it sounds like you agree with hits current place in the game.

Edited by MazingerZ, 14 March 2014 - 05:18 PM.

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Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#12 master21

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:21 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 14 March 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

To your second, because it presents the question of why bother including 'tanky mechanics' if they don't matter?

The dodge mechanic isn't bad until its trivialized other forms of damage mitigation like healing, vitality and toughness.  Much in the same way reflects do.


One simple question.
What is harder.
Dodging attacks which can kill you?
Stacking defensive stats and just eat all this damage?

#13 MazingerZ

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:29 PM

View Postmaster21, on 14 March 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

One simple question.
What is harder.
Dodging attacks which can kill you?
Stacking defensive stats and just eat all this damage?

Probably the latter, because you can't do that at the moment? :D

But seriously, that's not the question... the question becomes why have the stats to begin with then?  Why not just remove them and give everyone a base health-line and let them pursue pure damage?

Why have these red-herring stats that apparently don't matter if you apparently cannot dodge?

Seriously, if the game is going to play like a 'bullet hell' action RPG, why hold onto old MMO stats?  They apparently offer nothing or little game-play-wise, outstripped by the dodge and reflect mechanics.  Especially since we still live in a world where the meta is to forsake all passive mitigation for damage.  Think of how many issues would be cleared up in the LFG tool if everyone only wore 'zerkers?

No one's necessarily saying that they need to change the mechanic.  The point being made is... why do we have all this other stuff if we're really just supposed to be dodging?

It's really funny to watch folks get on their hackles when legitimate questions about why systems in the game are maintained (and expanded in the form of new stat sets) if they're being trivialized by another mechanic that the meta has deemed superior above all else.

Edited by MazingerZ, 14 March 2014 - 05:33 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#14 Bryant Again

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:36 PM

Defiant heavily discourages CC, condition damage is 'competitive', healing and 'tough' builds do little against spikes of damage...Build variety is in a very strange place in PvE. And yeup, the enemy opposition definitely has a huge role in this (this was also inferred in the efficiency thread). If the AI wasn't dumb as bricks and did a better job and imitating behaviors and set ups players would have, we'd probably having a very different PvE. As Gyre implied:

View PostGyre, on 14 March 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

This also requires: reducing the amount of endurance consumed per dodge, giving enemies more frequent lower damage attacks to encourage dodging over attacking and fixing telegraphs by removing particle effects.  Now where have I seen all this before...

We can see a pretty good basis of this in Guild Wars 1. However, the AI in it was still as complex as concrete, which helped fueled the 'Build Wars' problem. And to GW2's credit, there are still a handful of bad guys who do provide some gnarly damage on short cooldowns through their autoattacks. They just don't attack while moving, so you kinda just move out of the way while they finish the chain...

Of course, it's not without saying that GW1 is a very different game than GW2, namely in the fact that GW2 puts a huge emphasis on open world content - content that has to scale anywhere from one to a gorillion players. something they're already having issues with. One solution could be more of an emphasis on instanced content that would provide more balanced encounters, but the open-world endgame is their best answer to what makes GW2 one of the most open and "friendly" MMOs. It's also probably the best defense against ascended and vertical progression (can't be kicked for wearing whites in open-world content!)

View Postmaster21, on 14 March 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

One simple question.
What is harder.
Dodging attacks which can kill you?
Stacking defensive stats and just eat all this damage?

I'm not sure why you assumed it was an 'either/or' scenario of picking between healing+tanking or dodging? There's a solution out there, one of the best!

More to the point, if these build choices exist but don't have a longterm purpose in PvE, it needs to be communicated and explained to the players.

Edited by Bryant Again, 14 March 2014 - 05:37 PM.


#15 Nikephoros

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:48 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 14 March 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

Probably the latter, because you can't do that at the moment? :D

But seriously, that's not the question... the question becomes why have the stats to begin with then?  Why not just remove them and give everyone a base health-line and let them pursue pure damage?

Why have these red-herring stats that apparently don't matter if you apparently cannot dodge?

Seriously, if the game is going to play like a 'bullet hell' action RPG, why hold onto old MMO stats?  They apparently offer nothing or little game-play-wise, outstripped by the dodge and reflect mechanics.  Especially since we still live in a world where the meta is to forsake all passive mitigation for damage.  Think of how many issues would be cleared up in the LFG tool if everyone only wore 'zerkers?

No one's necessarily saying that they need to change the mechanic.  The point being made is... why do we have all this other stuff if we're really just supposed to be dodging?

It's really funny to watch folks get on their hackles when legitimate questions about why systems in the game are maintained (and expanded in the form of new stat sets) if they're being trivialized by another mechanic that the meta has deemed superior above all else.

Yes, it does.

https://www.youtube....h?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

As you can see, no dodging is required with tanky builds with high sustain/healing.  

You last point is a bit kooky because it implies that onus is on players who enjoy active, reflex based combat to defend the status quo when the burden of proof is on the person advocating change to properly state their case.

A paraphrase of my comments on the reddit thread: Who says the healing/tanky meta will be more fun?  Is "LF1m CLERICS ONLY" more fun than "LF1M ZERK ONLY"?  What makes you think there would be any more build variety?  If the meta becomes full Zealots, or half zerker half zealots or some other meta, what makes the greater variety?  Whatever the new meta is, that will be the only optimal choice and the other choices will still suck and be looked down on.  That isn't any different than now, only the names will be changed.  Change for the sake of progress is good, change for the sake of change sucks.  Changes to make the combat less reflex and action based are really poor ideas and clearly the fever dreams of people who can't or won't improve.

#16 Desild

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:50 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 14 March 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

But seriously, that's not the question... the question becomes why have the stats to begin with then?  Why not just remove them and give everyone a base health-line and let them pursue pure damage?

Because if the only stats available were passive effects from Attributes, Armor would be useless and purely cosmetic, and the game would lose it's WoW-esque charm and regress to its primodial form.

In other words, they don't want the game to "regress" back to be Guild Wars 1. Despite the former being vastly superior. That, or originally they wanted to do a direct sequel, and added this thing called "stats" which are utterly pointless, as an afterthought.

ArenaNet really hates Guild Wars 1. Didn't you know?

Edited by Desild, 14 March 2014 - 05:51 PM.


#17 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:53 PM

I love Wooden potato vids he is on spot with his observations and explains it so well !
Anyway Healing Power is absolutely useless and it`s direct reflection of GW2 combat system, high movement dodges and no targeting skills (for heals) makes anyone wanting to dwell into Healing just chase people around doing nothing or very little in terms of real heals and support !!!

Anyone still wonders why everybody doing something a bit harder only wants "zerkers" in their party ?

#18 MazingerZ

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:55 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 14 March 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

Yes, it does.

https://www.youtube....h?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

As you can see, no dodging is required with tanky builds with high sustain/healing.  

You last point is a bit kooky because it implies that onus is on players who enjoy active, reflex based combat to defend the status quo when the burden of proof is on the person advocating change to properly state their case.

A paraphrase of my comments on the reddit thread: Who says the healing/tanky meta will be more fun?  Is "LF1m CLERICS ONLY" more fun than "LF1M ZERK ONLY"?  What makes you think there would be any more build variety?  If the meta becomes full Zealots, or half zerker half zealots or some other meta, what makes the greater variety?  Whatever the new meta is, that will be the only optimal choice and the other choices will still suck and be looked down on.  That isn't any different than now, only the names will be changed.  Change for the sake of progress is good, change for the sake of change sucks.  Changes to make the combat less reflex and action based are really poor ideas and clearly the fever dreams of people who can't or won't improve.

No, they make it their personal crusade to defend it.  Because I'm not necessarily advocating for improving passive mitigation.  Tear it out for all I care.  My point is that its there to begin with, and even ArenaNet says they want to de-emphasize the usage of 'Zerker stats, which means they seem to want to have more emphasis on non-'Zerker, so it must have value to ArenaNet to be in the game, but I can't see it.  And therefore to de-emphasize 'Zerker, they have to somehow make the other stats worth more than they are at the moment.

If you want to go the other route, that's fine, but ArenaNet should at least be truthful and just rip out the other stats and put everyone's vitality/healing power/toughness at some base-line level and build content around that rather than continuing to act like the ability to customize those values adds anything to the game.

Gotta love your last line there, because based entirely on your opinion and value system, that isn't "progress."

Edited by MazingerZ, 14 March 2014 - 05:57 PM.

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#19 Arkham Creed

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:00 PM

I’m just going to jump in and give my two cents on the issue of just removing these passive defense stats.

I think that is looking at it in the wrong perspective; we shouldn’t just remove them because they are useless, they need to be buffed or something else (zerker) needs to be nerfed. That is what balance is; bringing things into roughly equal usefulness one way or another. The fact is these stats were probably supposed to be useful, I highly doubt Arena Net just added a bunch of “red herring” stats that they knew would be meaningless. After all you have to remember that Arena Net didn’t create the meta; developers never do. Sure they can encourage shifts in the meta with some balance patches, but nobody ever really knows what a meta game is going to look like until after the community gets their hands on the game and starts dog-piling on the first “first order optimal strategy” (extra creditz reference) they can exploit.

And make no mistake that is exactly what is happening here; full zerker builds with perma-vigor and constant dodging is an exploit. Unintended. Arena Net has already tried to nerf it by all but killing perma-vigor builds, and have already said (if you read between the lines) that zerker gear is getting a 10% damage nerf, so just wait and see. Is this an easy issue to solve? Obviously not. But does that mean we should just accept the game as is and remove half the stats and gear combinations because the community refuses to abandon the “lol DPS” mindset? Obviously not.

#20 MazingerZ

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:06 PM

View PostArkham Creed, on 14 March 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

I’m just going to jump in and give my two cents on the issue of just removing these passive defense stats.

I think that is looking at it in the wrong perspective; we shouldn’t just remove them because they are useless, they need to be buffed or something else (zerker) needs to be nerfed. That is what balance is; bringing things into roughly equal usefulness one way or another. The fact is these stats were probably supposed to be useful, I highly doubt Arena Net just added a bunch of “red herring” stats that they knew would be meaningless. After all you have to remember that Arena Net didn’t create the meta; developers never do. Sure they can encourage shifts in the meta with some balance patches, but nobody ever really knows what a meta game is going to look like until after the community gets their hands on the game and starts dog-piling on the first “first order optimal strategy” (extra creditz reference) they can exploit.

And make no mistake that is exactly what is happening here; full zerker builds with perma-vigor and constant dodging is an exploit. Unintended. Arena Net has already tried to nerf it by all but killing perma-vigor builds, and have already said (if you read between the lines) that zerker gear is getting a 10% damage nerf, so just wait and see. Is this an easy issue to solve? Obviously not. But does that mean we should just accept the game as is and remove half the stats and gear combinations because the community refuses to abandon the “lol DPS” mindset? Obviously not.

I'm not advocating for either stance at this point, the people disagreeing with me aren't even acknowledging the fact that there's a problem in the system.  The knee-jerk response to even bringing it up is the assumption that we're trying to take away from their precious "dodge is skill."  Let's just admit that the stats have no place in the game as it stands and move on from there.  Their worried that once we have come to that point in the argument, then something has to be done.  And they're worried that we'll raise passive mitigation when we could just as easily remove the stats as anything more than a number to balance the squishiness of each profession as a baseline value.
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#21 gw2guruaccount

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:06 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 14 March 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

I think you missed the part about mobs that can cleave through even the tankiest character in one-hit. Healing power mitigates those instances where you end up hit by something that hasn't scaled to OHKO-levels, but otherwise its pretty useless.  Did you watch the video?  Because it sounds like you agree with hits current place in the game.
I didn't watch the video. It is 24 minutes long.

Anyway the instant death element is only present in zergs. Killing the tankiest characters in one hit ( which is unlikely, a Guardian has a max resting defense of 63% (53% from Knight's stats + armor + traits, 10% from Signet of Justice;  and with protection 93%, excluding external bonuses ) so to OHKO would be, at even 30k, so much damage that if it occurred it would be with hundreds of players scaling the event. ) sounds unlikely. I think people just sort of overreact seeing as "tankiest" and "I took Soldier's" aren't the same thing.

#22 MazingerZ

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:10 PM

View Postgw2guruaccount, on 14 March 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

I didn't watch the video. It is 24 minutes long.

So you have a counter-argument to the argument you haven't even heard?  Glorious.
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#23 Arkham Creed

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:18 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 14 March 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

I'm not advocating for either stance at this point, the people disagreeing with me aren't even acknowledging the fact that there's a problem in the system.  The knee-jerk response to even bringing it up is the assumption that we're trying to take away from their precious "dodge is skill."  Let's just admit that the stats have no place in the game as it stands and move on from there.  Their worried that once we have come to that point in the argument, then something has to be done.  And they're worried that we'll raise passive mitigation when we could just as easily remove the stats as anything more than a number to balance the squishiness of each profession as a baseline value.

Agreed, and I said as much on WP’s video comment section. Healing as a role, as well as tanking, basically don’t exist in the game and players trying to build for them are “as useful to their party as shoes to a man without feet.” So consider us in agreement to the starting point; healing power and other defensive stats are rendered all but completely irrelevant in the current meta by vigor spam, dodging, and the ability to DPS everything down and rally.

Now what needs to be done? Personally I think nerfing zerker DPS is a good first step, but there is more to be done. I outlined some things in another thread that included replacing healing power with “boon power” that directly affected not only the strength of heals but also the statistical effectiveness of every other boon in the game (you can’t stack as much might, for example, without heavy investment into boon power thus resulting in lower statistical effectiveness when might stacking if you’re not built for it) and reworking toughness into a kind of auto-block percentage that could reduce any direct damage received by up to half, making it possible (with some more balance tweaks) to survive any single attack in the game without needing to dodge. Just some ideas I had, I’ll see if I can’t dig up the old post.

#24 MazingerZ

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:24 PM

View PostArkham Creed, on 14 March 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

Agreed, and I said as much on WP’s video comment section. Healing as a role, as well as tanking, basically don’t exist in the game and players trying to build for them are “as useful to their party as shoes to a man without feet.” So consider us in agreement to the starting point; healing power and other defensive stats are rendered all but completely irrelevant in the current meta by vigor spam, dodging, and the ability to DPS everything down and rally.

Now what needs to be done? Personally I think nerfing zerker DPS is a good first step, but there is more to be done. I outlined some things in another thread that included replacing healing power with “boon power” that directly affected not only the strength of heals but also the statistical effectiveness of every other boon in the game (you can’t stack as much might, for example, without heavy investment into boon power thus resulting in lower statistical effectiveness when might stacking if you’re not built for it) and reworking toughness into a kind of auto-block percentage that could reduce any direct damage received by up to half, making it possible (with some more balance tweaks) to survive any single attack in the game without needing to dodge. Just some ideas I had, I’ll see if I can’t dig up the old post.

I would personally love to see more build diversity in the game.  However, I'd be just as content to rip it out.  At least with it dead and buried, it would remove uncertainty as to where to invest in the game and deciding whether to give it up wholesale because that diversity has had the final nail put in its coffin.  As an aside, I think this problem has been allowed to fester so long is because of the "hope hangers" that would like to see the diversity come around.  I think too much development's gone into the game's current metas to change the system without forcing a change in existing persistent content.  It'd be much easier to just say 'Zerker for all!"  But then the bottom would fall out of their player-base, because despite what a lot of people think, being above average just means that a smaller piece of the dev-pie is for  you.
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#25 Nikephoros

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:25 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 14 March 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

My point is that its there to begin with, and even ArenaNet says they want to de-emphasize the usage of 'Zerker stats, which means they seem to want to have more emphasis on non-'Zerker, so it must have value to ArenaNet to be in the game, but I can't see it.  And therefore to de-emphasize 'Zerker, they have to somehow make the other stats worth more than they are at the moment.

Not really.  Their plan is to lower the dps advantage of berseker relative to other sets.  Right now a Full berserker warrior is something like 25% better dps than full Celestial with the same traits.  If they can change it so that Zerker is only like 15-20% better they will have achieved their goal.  Plus, they already said their solution is a nerf to critical damage so there is no point debating about what might be or might not be when we already know the plan.

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If you want to go the other route, that's fine, but ArenaNet should at least be truthful and just rip out the other stats and put everyone's vitality/healing power/toughness at some base-line level and build content around that rather than continuing to act like the ability to customize those values adds anything to the game.

Gear variety adds a tremendous amount of value in PvP and WvW.  Just because it doesn't add anything in dungeon speed runs isn't the end of the world.

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Gotta love your last line there, because based entirely on your opinion and value system, that isn't "progress."

Ofcourse it is my opinion.  I hope you wouldn't expect me to offer someone else's opinion.

#26 Gyre

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:27 PM

View PostArkham Creed, on 14 March 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

full zerker builds with perma-vigor and constant dodging is an exploit. Unintended.

Here's what I wonder.  So for some reason they decided to give differentiation to armor class and base health by profession.  Warrior, as an example, makes out like a bandit on this system getting the best of both.  Why isn't there a movement/endurance penalty associated with armor class?  You could make support/control more valuable instantly if there was suddenly a reason to actually support a player on the team or control a boss to hinder its mobility.

#27 MazingerZ

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:40 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 14 March 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

Not really.  Their plan is to lower the dps advantage of berseker relative to other sets.  Right now a Full berserker warrior is something like 25% better dps than full Celestial with the same traits.  If they can change it so that Zerker is only like 15-20% better they will have achieved their goal.  Plus, they already said their solution is a nerf to critical damage so there is no point debating about what might be or might not be when we already know the plan.

I'd like to see the quote on that being the only thing they were doing, end of story.  Because their quote seems to imply they don't want 'Zerker sitting at the top, which it would regardless of that change.  They're not just going to up-end the entire system because 1) that would be an extreme undertaking that their dev resources couldn't handle in one release and 2) even if they did do it there's a high likelihood that when it all shakes out, they're left with an even bigger and steaming pile.

As to the final point, your opinion was thus: "Changes to make the combat less reflex and action based are really poor ideas and clearly the fever dreams of people who can't or won't improve."

That's an opinion... there're probably multiple reasons for wanting more build diversity that involves something other than damage.  Right now damage is king and the only stat worth investing in.  People just fear any argument that the system is decidedly lop-sided while stats exist implies that they should matter because validation would imply change.
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#28 Arkham Creed

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:51 PM

View PostGyre, on 14 March 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

Here's what I wonder.  So for some reason they decided to give differentiation to armor class and base health by profession.  Warrior, as an example, makes out like a bandit on this system getting the best of both.  Why isn't there a movement/endurance penalty associated with armor class?  You could make support/control more valuable instantly if there was suddenly a reason to actually support a player on the team or control a boss to hinder its mobility.

There kind of is (sort of) but it is based less or armor type and more on profession skills. Adventurer professions tend to have way more auto-evade skills on their weapons while heavy armor classes tend to have blocks and chase skills instead. Likewise caster professions have superior range and skills that make them directly invulnerable. This shows you what combat is supposed to look like; heavies stay in the thick of things tanking hits, meds are in and out evading attacks, and lights stay away from the action as often possible. The problem, the break in the system, is vigor.

Dodging is supposed to be a panic button, and as someone who rarely ever has vigor on them I can attest that you run out of endurance fast and simply can't "lol just dodge noob" everything there is that can kill you without it. But vigor is the problem; even with vigor spam nerfed it still turns a panic button into a crutch and allows players to abuse it to avoid pretty much everything in the game. Personally I don't think a nerf is going to work here, vigor is by design way too over powered, and it is one of the few things in the game that I would call for a direct and complete removal.

#29 gopeone

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:52 PM

The deal is that if they want to improve the support roll and still keep it engaging they should improve the buff and condition removal systems.More something like http://wiki.guildwar...ki/Weapon_spell and http://wiki.guildwar...chantment_Spell than just http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aura and http://wiki.guildwar.../Blast_finisher .

#30 Arkham Creed

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:53 PM

Ah, here we are. My solution was less “nerf zerker” and more “make zerkers kill themselves” and the changes to support is not fully as I recall it. But hey, it’s been a few months; time enough for ideas to evolve.

View PostArkham Creed, on 12 January 2014 - 04:37 AM, said:

How to fix GW2’s combat system in ten (ish) simple (ish) steps.

Step 1; rework Defiant to have a chance to reflect damage to melee attackers, effectively bundling Defiant with retaliation.

Step 2; rework Defiant to no longer be a permanent buff, but rather a shield that can be removed, overpowered, timed out, and periodically reapplied throughout a fight.

Step 3; rework all heal-over-time and damage-over-time effects to conform to the pip system of the original Guild Wars.

***Step 3A; rework healing power and condition damage to simply increase the number of pips applied by regeneration or conditions, accelerating health loss/gain within a player independent scale.

***Step 3B; balance skills so that no single player can apply beyond a limited number of regeneration/degeneration pips on a single foe at one time.

***Step 3C; allow regeneration/degeneration pips applied by multiple players to stack rather than overwrite; thus making health regeneration and condition damage builds vastly more effective when working in groups, as opposed to the current system of getting in each other’s way.

Step 4; add a skill interrupt effect to all existing control effects. Allow this interrupt to apply to targets normally immune to control effects.

Step 5; refine the existing target prioritizing AI, and better communicate when a player is being targeted and what caused the shift in priority to players. I suggest a special ring under players who currently have “aggro.”

Step 6; rework ranged combat to involve lower direct damage, but include an “armor penetration” stat unique to ranged attacks.

***Step 6A; allow ranged attacks to still do a percentage of their total damage to blocking targets based on their armor penetration attribute. Balance ranged attacks to include variable armor penetration attributes across weapon sets and skills.

***Step 6B; grant armor penetrating attacks a chance to still apply conditions to blocking targets, based on the armor penetration of the skill used.

Step 7; rework toughness to relate to a new “mitigation” attribute, with higher toughness raising the mitigation percentage. Mitigation is a percent based chance to convert any incoming direct damage attack into a glancing blow, reducing it to half damage.

***Step 7A; enable mitigation to affect all direct damage from any source, including the most powerful hits from bosses.

Step 8; establish a hard cap on player health, allowing no players the possibility of exceeding this limit regardless of build, gear, or buffs.

Step 9; establish a hard cap on all direct damage from all sources, including the most powerful boss attacks. Never allow the total damage done from any attack, attack chain, or area of effect to exceed this limit.

***Step 9A; match the above damage limitation to the previously decided player health cap. Thus insuring that a player with sufficient toughness can potentially survive any single attack, attack chain, or area of effect.

Step 10; to avoid abuse of the above, establish a hard limit to player toughness that cannot be surpassed regardless of build, gear, or buffs. Balance this limit as needed to maintain the inherent threat of combat in spite of the above mitigation attribute.





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