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#1 Veji

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 08:21 PM

Honest question.

I've been gaming for years now and one thing that i've seen Blizzard struggle with over the years (or something they try to emphasize on) is to make the player feel "empowered".  Meaning, you feel awesome, playing whatever character in whatever game you are playing (of theirs).

Now, apply the question to GW2:  Do you feel empowered?  Do you feel like a mighty hero?

I know that when i play warrior, yes, i feel empowered.  When i play anything else, not so much.  I'm not talking about the LS or any story elements, but the actual gameplay and feel.  Wehn i hit something as a warrior, it feels like i'm hitting like a truck and that, to me, is rewarding gameplay.

#2 ChuyDog08

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 08:35 PM

I know I do and 5 others near me when I select the #5 Staff skill when running my guardian.


Empower

Sorry, I had to do that.  ;)

I think I have less of a feeling of empowerment in Guild Wars 2 than any other game I have played.  At some point in most games you feel uber.  With GW2 the down leveling takes that fun away.

Also, when you do feel empowered, ANet finds a way to take it away.

Edited by ChuyDog08, 24 March 2014 - 08:36 PM.


#3 Kymeric

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 09:16 PM

I felt empowered in the days when D/D Eles were at their peak.  I didn't PvP, so it wasn't a case of being overpowered.  But in WvW and PvE the skills worked together well so that my Ele was constantly in motion, flipping through attunements, creating his own combos, sliding back, forth and around his enemies.

I think that's pretty much the only time in the game where I've really felt  awesome.  I've played all of the professions, but concentrated on Guardian, Engie, Ele, and Mesmer.  I've probably come close to that on Mesmer at times.  Dropping in and out of stealth, porting around, and churning out clones can feel pretty sweet, but I never got to the point where it really clicked like it did with Ele.

I gotta agree with Chuydog.  The moment I start to feel, "Oh, yeah, this class rocks" is the moment I know ArenaNet is going to be swinging the nerfhammer.  It's too bad, really.  Wish they could get balance out of all professions feeling buff, instead of making sure none do.

Edited by Kymeric, 24 March 2014 - 09:18 PM.


#4 raspberry jam

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 11:20 PM

I never feel empowered in a game unless it's by something that happens as a result of me, the player, doing something good. As such, GW1 managed to make me feel empowered a lot, GW2 almost never.

#5 Desild

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 01:31 AM

Not sure what you mean. Showing Garrosh Hellscream who's boss made me feel pretty empowered.

#6 Andemius

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:02 AM

Very rarely.

In gw1, if I was monking or playing shutdown in gvg or HA, yes, because I had a direct impact on whether we won or lost.

In gw2, rarely, only if I clutch save my team from defeat or similar in team arena.

#7 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:38 AM

I was levelling my ranger in GW1 a few days ago and I DShot Reversal. There has been absolutely nothing about GW2 that would create the same feeling of exhilaration.

#8 MCBiohazard

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 01:04 PM

View PostChuyDog08, on 24 March 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

I think I have less of a feeling of empowerment in Guild Wars 2 than any other game I have played.  At some point in most games you feel uber.  With GW2 the down leveling takes that fun away.

Also, when you do feel empowered, ANet finds a way to take it away.

The zone leveling is one of the things A-Net did half right though, imo. They should have taken the full step and allowed low level players to wander into high level zones anywhere and scale up like they've been doing for the LS open world zones. Then you would have a harder time getting around at lower levels compared to if you were naturally high enough for the zone due to traits and gear, but there wouldn't be a hard wall keeping you from hanging with friends or exploring deep as you're leveling up.

As for the nerf argument, it's necessary no matter how much players complain, especially in MMOs that try to mix PvE/PvP as features. Whether certain nerfs are well received or not is just a matter of PR, which admittedly nobody in the gaming industry is particularly good at. There's two directions you can go with balance, absolute power creep, which does make PvE feel fun up to a certain point where it becomes stale due to lack of challenge and thus lack of tactics required to play. That direction also eventually balances PvP according to the DotA model on the premise that if everything is OP, everyone is on the same playing field. But that is a very niche playerbase that enjoys that sort of all or nothing play with extremely high learning curve. Most people like to have some options when it comes to mitigating player mistakes after the fact.

So the other direction is to nerf outliers and prevent hard counters to any particular situation to keep down power creep and allow more classes to work. In both PvE and PvP you don't get the immediate high of being able to whammo a mob or a player to death in one or two shots but in theory, the health of the game is maintained as long as you remain consistent in balancing towards a desired direction. Whether A-Net has done this or not is entirely up to opinion, however.

tl;dr - Nerfs are the least productive thing to complain about. Unless they're nerfs to your character, then it's okay to complain. A lot.

#9 Minion

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 01:16 PM

You're not supposed to be empowered in GW2. Everyone is the same; the proletariat. You're one player of many, insignificant in the story. You're kept poor because that's how Anet make their money and the combat is not enriching enough to make you feel any button you pressed was crucial to your success.

#10 spockthe40oz

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 05:18 PM

When I was younger gaming used to have that effect on me, but not so much anymore. It's just a fun thing to do to pass the time now.

#11 Kymeric

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 05:24 PM

View PostMCBiohazard, on 25 March 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:


tl;dr - Nerfs are the least productive thing to complain about. Unless they're nerfs to your character, then it's okay to complain. A lot.

I get your point, but it's not completely black and white.

Yes, there's straight power comparisons.  Is a particular profession at a power level that trivializes the content in the game?  Then nerfing makes sense.

But there's also a point where a certain profession really starts clicking because its synergies are working well, and make it capable of doing impressive things.  Then it gets the nerf bat because it is outshining the other professions in PvP, even though it isn't necessarily trivializing the PvE content.

It's very intangible, so hard to articulate, but when people talk about wishing they would raise underperforming classes to the level of the stars rather than nerfing the ones that are playing well, they aren't intending that net power level be increased in an endless spiral upwards.  Raw power is only part of what makes a profession fun to play. Unfortunately, a profession really working well is closely tied into how powerful it can be, and it's trick to disentangle them.

It's related to how ANet keeps doing power tweaks when there are so many bugs in the skills themselves.  This general response to people tired of nerf cycles, that balancing the other direction would just cause power creep, feels a bit like telling people if ArenaNet were to fix all the bugs, the professions would be too powerful.  Yes, fixing bugs that don't work could cause a net gain in power, because people would have access to things that just didn't work before, but it'd be a sad excuse to not fix them.

Trying to reach a place where every profession feels powerful has a power creep component, but it's not one and the same.  And no one plays heroic fantasy games to play semi-gimped characters because that's the easiest way to avoid that power creep.

Sorry for the ramble.  I don't feel like I'm articulating this at all well, but I hope the idea comes through.

#12 Desild

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 06:12 PM

View PostMinion, on 25 March 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

You're not supposed to be empowered in GW2. Everyone is the same; the proletariat. You're one player of many, insignificant in the story. You're kept poor because that's how Anet make their money and the combat is not enriching enough to make you feel any button you pressed was crucial to your success.

I remember the good old days, where a well placed Pain Inverter was all I needed to destroy a boss.

#13 MCBiohazard

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:59 PM

View PostDesild, on 25 March 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

I remember the good old days, where a well placed Pain Inverter was all I needed to destroy a boss.

Then again, I seem to remember people in the guru forums for GW1 complaining a whole lot that the PvE skills from EotN ruined everything. Ursan uber alles and all that jazz. I didn't necessarily agree with them but there were a lot of PvX meta builds that were basically just 'load half the bar with OP PvE-only skills'. Is that good or bad, who knows? It's definitely a YMMV thing.

#14 Desild

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:01 PM

View PostMCBiohazard, on 25 March 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

Then again, I seem to remember people in the guru forums for GW1 complaining a whole lot that the PvE skills from EotN ruined everything. Ursan uber alles and all that jazz. I didn't necessarily agree with them but there were a lot of PvX meta builds that were basically just 'load half the bar with OP PvE-only skills'. Is that good or bad, who knows? It's definitely a YMMV thing.

Well, In my defense, I used Heroes exclusively and they couldn't use PvE skills, but that's another can of worms. People did moan that Heroes ruined everything

#15 MCBiohazard

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:18 PM

View PostDesild, on 25 March 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Well, In my defense, I used Heroes exclusively and they couldn't use PvE skills, but that's another can of worms. People did moan that Heroes ruined everything

I loved heroes also. And people sure liked to complain about them too but when your choice is between an uncooperative jerk player, an uncooperative henchman with idiot AI and a somewhat compliant and malleable hero, I'll take the third option hands down, even if I have to feed and clothe them myself, haha.

#16 Cr0w

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:22 PM

View PostChuyDog08, on 24 March 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

...

Also, when you do feel empowered, ANet finds a way to take it away.

^^ This

With all the nerfs it won't be long before killing a level 2 mob will take as long as killing a champion/elite does now.

Edited by Cr0w, 25 March 2014 - 11:29 PM.


#17 ExplosivePinata

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:05 AM

No, I have 11 toons all at 80 (Ele was the least fun by a country mile for what it's worth). None of which I feel as much of a connection with as my Necro main in GW.

Thanks to GW2's relentless shitty lack of skills that meet the crescendo, the aloof and the ignorant all at once with "You don't have enough gold!"


Edited by ExplosivePinata, 26 March 2014 - 04:04 AM.


#18 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 08:27 AM

View PostMCBiohazard, on 25 March 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

Then again, I seem to remember people in the guru forums for GW1 complaining a whole lot that the PvE skills from EotN ruined everything. Ursan uber alles and all that jazz. I didn't necessarily agree with them but there were a lot of PvX meta builds that were basically just 'load half the bar with OP PvE-only skills'. Is that good or bad, who knows? It's definitely a YMMV thing.

GW2's problem isn't so much that Ursan exists, it's that Ursan is all there is.
GW1 gave us builds of various effectiveness and various difficulty. Sadly, the builds that were more difficult to play weren't always also the more effective ones. Thus, in GW2, A.Net thought to solve this problem by removing difficulty: you still have builds that are more effective than others, but all builds are brain-dead easy to play. (And of course, that's not all down to the fact that the skills are simpler, it's also down to mob design.)

That's why I keep saying that GW2 is the dervish made into a game. Sadly.

#19 raspberry jam

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 08:43 AM

View PostMCBiohazard, on 25 March 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

Then again, I seem to remember people in the guru forums for GW1 complaining a whole lot that the PvE skills from EotN ruined everything. Ursan uber alles and all that jazz. I didn't necessarily agree with them but there were a lot of PvX meta builds that were basically just 'load half the bar with OP PvE-only skills'. Is that good or bad, who knows? It's definitely a YMMV thing.
Heroes might've thinned out the apparent playerbase a bit since people didn't hang around in towns trying to form parties anymore. Instead, they were playing the game. Often together with a friend since the normal party size was 8 and you could only have 3 heroes at first. Heroes didn't ruin the game. PvE skills and the possibility of running missions/dungeons did. Then ANet took that concept and called it GW2.

Edited by raspberry jam, 26 March 2014 - 08:46 AM.


#20 nerfandderf

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:40 AM

No not in GW2 and I think it comes down to the poor implementation of loot distribution and is it fun.

You never get a good drop that can be used - the wow awesome moment where things are realized

Forced to grind gold is the are we there yet mentality and isnt fun and it devalues motivation and when that poor reward does drop it hits harder. This is the issue with GW2 and why Precursor building was fundamentally one of the most important things they could have added to the game.

It would have given the drops required to reward the player and motivate playing and focus on a goal something ascended gear doesnt have.

Edited by nerfandderf, 26 March 2014 - 09:40 AM.


#21 rukia

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 07:34 PM

View PostDesild, on 25 March 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:

Not sure what you mean. Showing Garrosh Hellscream who's boss made me feel pretty empowered.

I felt empowered because he's a terrible character and needed to be taken out of the picture, haha. At least WoW has the ability to give me some feels with their characters whether they are retarded or not. SoO was a great raid though.

OT: In full zerker with food buffs on my thief in typical glass cannon build I can feel pretty damn overpowered. But like another post said ANet will find some way to take that away. 10% dmg nerf across the boards comes to mind when in zerk gear..

Edited by rukia, 26 March 2014 - 07:35 PM.


#22 Minion

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:22 PM

View Postrukia, on 26 March 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:



OT: In full zerker with food buffs on my thief in typical glass cannon build I can feel pretty damn overpowered. But like another post said ANet will find some way to take that away. 10% dmg nerf across the boards comes to mind when in zerk gear..

Try 18%. At least. Anet are muddying the waters a lot with their examples.

#23 MazingerZ

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:33 PM

View PostMinion, on 27 March 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

Try 18%. At least. Anet are muddying the waters a lot with their examples.

This is nothing new.  Same thing happened when they described a "shallow power curve" with Ascended, but pure Zerker Ascended had a rather large percentage increase of damage versus Exotic.  It was only a shallow change when you compared effectiveness to stats that were already shit.

Don't let anyone fool you, the change is laying groundwork to getting better scaling out of Crit Damage because pure percentage increases don't decay with level.

Precision decays with level.  I very much expect Ferocity to do the same.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#24 theoxygenthief

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:11 AM

I left GW2 months ago after maxing 4 chars and almost maxing 2 more. I came back to the forums today to try and get a feel of whether the meta has changed at all since then and your post sums up pretty well why I left (and it seems won't be returning anytime soon). I'd like to add the following: GW2 doesn't reward smart, skillful play. It rewards max dps builds, where you're always one missed dodgeroll away from a party wipe. But hey, a party wipe is not the end of the world, just restart the area and don't miss the dodge roll the next time. This party wipe lack causes a lot of the feeling of disempowerment as it takes away the value of a player and a party's lives, and also takes away Anet's incentive to create balanced content that requires thorough strategy

Edited by theoxygenthief, 11 May 2014 - 10:17 AM.


#25 Zhaitan

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 02:45 PM

View PostVeji, on 24 March 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

Honest question.

I've been gaming for years now and one thing that i've seen Blizzard struggle with over the years (or something they try to emphasize on) is to make the player feel "empowered".  Meaning, you feel awesome, playing whatever character in whatever game you are playing (of theirs).

Now, apply the question to GW2:  Do you feel empowered?  Do you feel like a mighty hero?


Does your hero feel empowered after salvaging lackluster drops to make a legendary weapon that only looks good and whose only legend relates to the xenocide of karkas at southsun cove or countless hours spent on flipping items on T/P?

Your question does not apply to GW2. And therein lies the rub.

Question that should be asked is that whether GW concept should be applied to an MMO or not.

I am pretty sure ANET realizes the fundamental issue of this game lies in the concept. You can't take a competitive PvP oriented game and make a themepark MMO out of it. It's like asking Giselle Bundchen to be like Audrey Hepburn.

After playing both GW1 and GW2 considerably, I am now convinced that GW2 needs a name change and new creative direction to remain relevant in coming years. And when they do, your question will become very relevant.

Edited by Zhaitan, 12 May 2014 - 02:47 PM.


#26 alccode

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:33 PM

View PostKymeric, on 24 March 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

I felt empowered in the days when D/D Eles were at their peak.  I didn't PvP, so it wasn't a case of being overpowered.  But in WvW and PvE the skills worked together well so that my Ele was constantly in motion, flipping through attunements, creating his own combos, sliding back, forth and around his enemies.

I think that's pretty much the only time in the game where I've really felt  awesome.  I've played all of the professions, but concentrated on Guardian, Engie, Ele, and Mesmer.

I get that feeling playing my Thief. Constant movement, dodging, stealthing for repositioning, weaving in and out, constantly on the attack. It's exhilarating. The quick sheath of weapons after the last kill provides the icing on the cake.

(That also answers OP.)




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