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#1 Arkham Creed

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 10:25 PM

A lot of the pay-to-win arguments I’ve seen lately stink of what I call “subjective advantage.” It was summed up best in a recent thread I shall link at the end of this post. In a nut shell the purposed “essence” of pay-to-win was “the personal victory conditions” of each individual player; those personal goals we all set for ourselves within the game such as collecting all the skills, gaining map completion, or crafting a legendary weapon. It was said that any form of “pay-to-complete my personal goals” is a form of pay-to-win. This is a logical error to an extreme degree. You see as an MMO the game has to cater to one degree or another to a majority audience, and as such major changes and monetization should appropriately be based on majority preference. The problem is that these subjective advantages, or “personal victory conditions” are not uniform, and apply only to each individual. As such it is literally impossible to come to a uniform or even majority consensus on what constitutes “pay-to-win” when dealing solely in these subjective opinions and personal goals.

As such these types of definitions are rightly based on objective advantages. That is to say paying real money for an undeniable statistical advantage in an officially competitive play mode. Because of this, to put it simply, paying to have stronger weapons in PvP would be pay-to-win, but paying to acquire a legendary skin slightly faster in PvE is not. This is regardless of the value any individual player places on the speed of acquiring these skins and their place within said player’s “personal victory conditions.” Once again, it is factually impossible to reach even a majority consensus on what is a “fair” or “unfair” rate of PvE cosmetic accusation to dollars spent ratio.

Some players just won’t care about buying skins. Others, like myself, draw the line at paying for specific reward skins but care little about gems-to-gold conversion allowing faster material gathering. Some would reject the concept of any form of impact real world currency might have on the system, and others still would feel that some degree of monetary support of the game should be required for the most prestigious rewards or in-game perks. It is simply not possible to reconcile these differing, yet each equally viable, subjective opinions. And as such high impact monetization decisions that affect the entire game and all players needs to disregard all of these opinions equally; instead basing such decisions entirely upon objective statistical advantages in officially competitive content types only. The only way to be fair is to have every subjective opinion matter equally; not at all.

In the specific case of Guild Wars 2 nothing in the gem store is pay-to-win because nothing therein provides any degree of statistical advantage in a competitive game mode. You could argue this statement based on the gradual cross contamination of PvE and WvW, but WvW is confirmed and designed to be “unbalanced” and by that nature “unfair” to begin with. The only strictly and officially competitive game mode is sPvP, and the gem store has zero impact on it from a statistical perspective. As such Guild Wars 2 is objectively not pay-to-win regardless of the opinions of individual players based on their “personal victory conditions.”

In the end it falls to each player to make the decision if any given game’s monetization system is right for them. And if their subjective desires are not being met, or being contradicted, by that game’s system then it is best for them simply to leave the game rather than unfairly and selfishly requesting these systems be changed to suit their subjective view. And in doing so, it is also only fair, that they acknowledge the difference between a game that is actually pay-to-win, and a game that simply involves monetary systems they don’t like for purely subjective reasons. Put simply saying Guild Wars 2 is “pay-to-win” when what you actually mean is “I don’t like the gem system because people with more money can craft statistically irrelevant skins faster” is not only inaccurate, it is a boldfaced lie.  

The thread that inspired this tangent can be found here;
http://www.guildwars...old-conversion/

TLDR;
My post starts at the top. If you don't want to read you shouldn't be on an internet forum. Stop being lazy.

MOD EDIT I haven't changed anything in this post, but I just wanted to say this is the best TL;DR I have ever read. Well played good sir and thank you for voicing the mindset needed on a discussion forum.

Edited by Feathermoore, 03 April 2014 - 01:56 PM.
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#2 RandolfRa

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:38 AM

Quote

You could argue this statement based on the gradual cross contamination of PvE and WvW, but WvW is confirmed and designed to be “unbalanced” and by that nature “unfair” to begin with.
Is than excuse though? Pay to win is still pay to win even if the game isn't fair by design. Of course you can never have pay to win in a fair environment. There has to be scales that can be tipped to your favor in one way or another. When these scales resonate to money, then it's pay to win. You know, like in the American justice system.

Anyway, I don't think gw2 is a pay to win game. I see it being a Skinner's box above all else.

Oh by the way, I like your TLDR;

Edited by RandolfRa, 03 April 2014 - 01:45 AM.


#3 Mordakai

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:08 AM

Life is a skinner box.  :)

Seriously, people throw terms around too loosely.  We play things because they are fun...  so, if hitting buttons gives you pleasure, than yeah I guess all video games are "skinner boxes".

If you mean we are trapped in a box by scientists and our reactions are being studied...   well, that's possible too, but it has nothing to do with Guild Wars.

#4 Arkham Creed

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:59 AM

View PostRandolfRa, on 03 April 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

Is than excuse though? Pay to win is still pay to win even if the game isn't fair by design. Of course you can never have pay to win in a fair environment. There has to be scales that can be tipped to your favor in one way or another. When these scales resonate to money, then it's pay to win. You know, like in the American justice system.

Anyway, I don't think gw2 is a pay to win game. I see it being a Skinner's box above all else.

Oh by the way, I like your TLDR;

Well really you have examine if the gem store does provide an advantage however. At most converting gems to gold will allow players to buy gear off the trading post faster, or to craft their own faster. However I never said that it was pay-to-win in WvW, I said it could be argued it if it was or not because of the above. You can clearly say that being able to obtain max stat armor slightly faster by opening your wallet isn’t pay-to-win in PvE because it isn’t a competitive game mode, but WvW is.

However as we all know you don’t buy this armor directly with real money, and if you are a WvW player you’re obviously going to be getting gold, karma, and badges of honor just by playing that you can use to obtain said armor without real money. So it becomes a question of rate and scale. Does opening your wallet get you that best in slot gear faster than just earning it with badges and karma? And if so how much faster? And how fast is fast enough to be considered an unfair advantage in a game that does its best to scale you without it?

A lot of questions and inevitably a lot of answers, all of them subjective in one way or another. That could easily be a discussion all to itself. Either way, as I said, it can be argued that converting gold to gems is pay-to-win in WvW. As for me, I don’t think it matters that much, but that’s just an opinion. And I don’t really care to get into that argument myself, as I am bias by my nature of being a predominately PvE player.

#5 RandolfRa

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:34 AM

View PostMordakai, on 03 April 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

Life is a skinner box.  :)

Seriously, people throw terms around too loosely.  We play things because they are fun...  so, if hitting buttons gives you pleasure, than yeah I guess all video games are "skinner boxes".

If you mean we are trapped in a box by scientists and our reactions are being studied...   well, that's possible too, but it has nothing to do with Guild Wars.
Check out this short video https://www.youtube....h?v=_ICbcBcXVC0 for what I mean.
Gw2 is full of small scripted rewards that have no gameplay value. These include the daily tasks and the temporary meta achievement grind. They are very artificial and exist just to keep you playing and coming back to the game.
Then you have the RNG boxes that abuse certain psychological phenomena as is mentioned in that video. This kind of design is why I call it a Skinner's box: psychological conditioning and tricks are used to make people behave in desired ways.

Also: contrary to a sandbox, the environment of a Skinner's box is very controlled. That's another reason why I think Skinner's box is a good analogy. I.e. minecraft = sandbox, gw2 = Skinner's box.

Edited by RandolfRa, 03 April 2014 - 06:11 AM.


#6 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:30 AM

View PostMordakai, on 03 April 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

Seriously, people throw terms around too loosely.  We play things because they are fun...  so, if hitting buttons gives you pleasure, than yeah I guess all video games are "skinner boxes".

If you mean we are trapped in a box by scientists and our reactions are being studied...   well, that's possible too, but it has nothing to do with Guild Wars.
You seem to grossly misunderstand why people refer to games such as GW2 as Skinner boxes. To start off, the actual name of the "Skinner box" is "operant conditioning chamber". That should give a hint: that the actual boxes were only used in research is beside the point, since they would work to impose operant conditioning even if not watched by a scientist.
And of course there is a lot more to operant conditioning than just "hit button to receive pleasure", even if that is the most basic form of it.

View PostArkham Creed, on 02 April 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

A lot of the pay-to-win arguments I’ve seen lately stink of what I call “subjective advantage.” It was summed up best in a recent thread I shall link at the end of this post. In a nut shell the purposed “essence” of pay-to-win was “the personal victory conditions” of each individual player; those personal goals we all set for ourselves within the game such as collecting all the skills, gaining map completion, or crafting a legendary weapon. It was said that any form of “pay-to-complete my personal goals” is a form of pay-to-win. This is a logical error to an extreme degree. You see as an MMO the game has to cater to one degree or another to a majority audience, and as such major changes and monetization should appropriately be based on majority preference. The problem is that these subjective advantages, or “personal victory conditions” are not uniform, and apply only to each individual. As such it is literally impossible to come to a uniform or even majority consensus on what constitutes “pay-to-win” when dealing solely in these subjective opinions and personal goals.
Subjective advantage is the only advantage there is. Maybe you are totally uninterested in soccer, but can you deny that Spain is the current world champion of it? No, you can't, so victory exists whether you are interested in it or not. If they had bought their way to victory in the world cup, it would be literal pay2win regardless of your own interest in soccer.

In the same way, even if a player is totally uninterested in skins, another player who is interested in skins and pay for a certain skin does get what she wants because she paid, which is pay2win.

But really is there any problem in other people buying happiness and success? No, them winning does not imply that you are losing. The problem is that when pay2win exists, the game devs have an interest in creating situations where people do care about the things that they are selling. And, of course, to sell the things that people care about. So because of pay2win, devs change from being the cool guy who builds an amazing and fun world for you to play in, to the creepy guy who manipulates you into paying him for basically nothing.
I say nothing because pay2win devs spend more time on building structures to manipulate you than they do implementing things to sell to you - when they should be making a ♥♥♥♥ing game.

#7 pumpkin pie

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:49 AM

Conditioning players to buy stuffs is pay to win?

#8 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:15 AM

View Postpumpkin pie, on 03 April 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Conditioning players to buy stuffs is pay to win?
Well, it's an important part of a pay2win business model.

#9 Desild

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:54 AM

View PostMordakai, on 03 April 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

Life is a skinner box.  :)

Seriously, people throw terms around too loosely.  We play things because they are fun...  so, if hitting buttons gives you pleasure, than yeah I guess all video games are "skinner boxes".

As a Psychologist, I believe you are grossly misunderstanding the principles behind Skinner Boxes yourself. Life is not a Skinner Box. Conditioning is a learning mechanism that's key for survival, and it was a trait adquired to increase the rate of survival.

You can condition a rat to pull a lever and get a treat. What people forget is that you can condition a rat to pull a lever to stop the cage from electrocuting it. Conditioning works both to stimulate and supress behaviors. We can go further with Pavlovian Conditioning, in that you don't even need to throw a complete stimuli if the dog is conditioned to associate a sound with food.

What happens in Guild Wars 2 is that rewards overall are bland and almost non-existing. What keeps us going is the occasional "reward" they throw at us in the form of the Living Story, and the limited time rewards tied to it. Then we have the actual treasures in the game, that are gated with token systems or ludicrous amounts of rare items needed to craft them. Rewards are not intrinsic to the game and must be worked hard to achieve, that is fair right?

Then comes the Gem Store, that throws the reward scarcity out of the window and offers instant gratification at the cost of a Credit Card swipe. If the game feels unrewarding, a couple of hundred of gems will fix that up for you. But then you'd say, oh but I can use gold I got from doing content to buy gems, but then we go back to the time gated thing since you only gain so much gold within a short period of time before the game starts cutting your legs.

This game offers Instant Gratification in the Gem Store, and conditioned the entire game to only rarely give similar Instant Gratification. Then they conditioned the game to give an advantage to players that pay with moeny than those who pay with time for they gratification, instead of charging us all equally for our time and opportunities in game, like they used to in GW1.

So when you tell me that this isn't P2W, I start to believe we don't have the correct definition for this term. Then I urge us all to come up with a 2W term for the game, like P2A or G2W. Pay to Awesome or Gems to Win.

#10 Mordakai

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:54 AM

As I've said before, I think that the Black Lion Chests are evil.  I've made it a point not to buy keys in the hopes they will get removed or changed with a guaranteed weapon scrap.

I do agree that the weapon skins released only in the BLC  piss me off...  and even if it's not pay to win, it is resources being spent for the sole purpose to entice people to gamble.   You don't have to call it a skinner box, it's just bad for customers, and ultimately bad for GW2 ( because resources spent away from the core principle of the game: everyone should be able to get what they want by  playing the game).

Edited by Mordakai, 03 April 2014 - 12:10 PM.


#11 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:56 AM

View PostDesild, on 03 April 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Then comes the Gem Store, that throws the reward scarcity out of the window and offers instant gratification at the cost of a Credit Card swipe. If the game feels unrewarding, a couple of hundred of gems will fix that up for you. But then you'd say, oh but I can use gold I got from doing content to buy gems, but then we go back to the time gated thing since you only gain so much gold within a short period of time before the game starts cutting your legs.

This game offers Instant Gratification in the Gem Store, and conditioned the entire game to only rarely give similar Instant Gratification. Then they conditioned the game to give an advantage to players that pay with moeny than those who pay with time for they gratification, instead of charging us all equally for our time and opportunities in game, like they used to in GW1.

So when you tell me that this isn't P2W, I start to believe we don't have the correct definition for this term. Then I urge us all to come up with a 2W term for the game, like P2A or G2W. Pay to Awesome or Gems to Win.
Maybe we should call it P2P? As in Pay 2 Progress? There are even players that would support such an idea.

When you described the gem store like that I came to think of an actual Skinner box with a rat and a lever that gave food pellets. And then a big bowl of food pellets in the middle of the room. Of course the rat eats at the bowl and ignores the lever.

#12 pumpkin pie

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:11 PM

Same question, how do you win by buying anything at all from the gem store? what exactly do you win beside loosing some money?

#13 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:08 PM

View Postpumpkin pie, on 03 April 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Same question, how do you win by buying anything at all from the gem store? what exactly do you win beside loosing some money?
Assume that there are players who think that having cool armor skins. For them, getting a cool armor skin is "win". It Is victory. It is what they play for. Assume also that ANet sell skins that blind people think look cool in the gem store. Purchasing such a skin would confer victory to the earlier described class of players.

Or, assume that players play the game in order to get xp, loot, etc. Buying a booster item in the gem store increases the xp, loot, or etc acquisition rate. This is not really pay 2 WIN, but it is paying for what you want to achieve.

And so on.

#14 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:09 PM

View Postpumpkin pie, on 03 April 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Same question, how do you win by buying anything at all from the gem store? what exactly do you win beside loosing some money?

We're not talking about buying from the gem store, keep up.

We're talking specifically about how can convert cash to in-game currency via the gem store.

You win by meeting your own personal conditions for victory or winning in the game.

It's not even about buying a Legendary outright.  Maybe you need the precursor.  Maybe you need some of the materials that go into creating the Legendary.  This is a very specific example, however.  The point is, you can bypass effort with cash->gems->gold.

This creates a profit motive to develop a game with the intention of creating a subset of customers willing to engage in that behavior.

The GDC 2014 conference was very indicative of how this mindset with micro-transactions and exploitation has become pervasive in game development.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#15 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:57 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 April 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

The point is, you can bypass effort with cash->gems->gold.
This ties in with how GW2 is so focused on gold. This is why death penalty is measured in gold instead of in failure. It's why the Mystic Fountain is so annoying. And so on.

#16 Feathermoore

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:17 PM

When most people talk about pay to win they are actually taking about "paying to beat other people." There is no way to lose in GW2. There is no advantage over other people gained from spending real money. So yes, from the literal interpretation it is possible to buy your way to your goals in GW2 but this has no impact on other people so it isn't the standard use of P2W. The quote "noone can make you feel inferior without your consent" from Eleanor Roosevelt is pretty relevant here. If you take issue with another person spending money to get something they want faster than you then you are holding a really unhealthy view on the world.

Is game design influenced by the cash shop? Possibly. We don't know what Anet's internal QA standards are in regard to this. It is equally possible that the cash shop is just developing goods that would be sold based on the game design that is already completed. Which came first? Which has more impact on the other? Not possible to say without having access to planning meetings. It most likely is both. And no, this isn't something we really need to talk about as we all know what the argument is.

So really on topic. No, GW2 isn't P2W in the traditional sense as for it to be P2W you must gain an advantage over others in a way that makes you beat them.

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#17 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:36 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 03 April 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

When most people talk about pay to win they are actually taking about "paying to beat other people."
Post #23

#18 Desild

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:41 PM

View Postpumpkin pie, on 03 April 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Same question, how do you win by buying anything at all from the gem store? what exactly do you win beside loosing some money?

Social status is a wonderful thing. It's what diferenciates kings from peasants. That, and the amount of grime that covers their clothing.

A good way to achieve social status, is by having more health invested than your piers. A poor schmuck like me barely has enough for a single Ascended weapon and stands right in the middle of the social foodchain, while there are virtual moguls who have several Legendaries who stand at the top of it.

I could climb several steps of the foodchain if I were to stop investing my pocket money on cups of coffee and other games, and bought Gems, but I refuse. Thus my social status is lessen by this. I'd no doubt have a Foefire Weapon by now if I bought even a single gem.

A paltry of 10€ in Gems today is enough to cover the equivalent of an entire week's worth of running Dungeons and Events. Only out of moral standards that I haven't submitted to this constription. Voting with my wallet is painful at times.

Edited by Desild, 03 April 2014 - 02:46 PM.


#19 I post stuff

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:42 PM

I take it you don't know what real pay 2 win is, or maybe you are very rich irl. ;-)

A legendary item like Eternity will cost you £360 to buy through gem exchange.

Some items like ascended trinkets (which are very important, imo) cannot be bought with real money.

Let me assure you that this game is not p2w at all. :-)

Edited by Ipoststuff, 03 April 2014 - 07:52 PM.


#20 master21

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:16 PM

P2W in gw2? Maybe if we call "pay 5$ and push this button to win and end the game" also a p2w.


Converting gems to gold to gear up is a shortcut for some goal. Shortcut in terms of time most of the time. Hour spent on playing the game does not have the value of hour in work and hour in work here has different value than hour in work there.
Why ppl in general use money in game?
1) Normal ingame way to get this is not fun for them.
Hardcore wvwvw player. He is playing on daily basis but 100% is wvwvw because he love it.
It's hard for him to get Legendary or some ascended armor. WvWvW does not have highest gold/time ratio and also as a hardcore wvwvw players he spends a lot on consumables, arrow carts etc.
For him going for some dungeon farming is boring as hell, but he also want a legendary. He has real life money. For him it's worth this 350$.
Anything bad with this? IMO not. His choice.
2)They are lazy and have a lot of money
PPL with either high e-peen or "I want everything" attitude. Main reason to play mmo is to show off in game how rich they are.
They spent huge amount of money and aside from being best customers in the world they are just jerks. Nobody cares about them, let them pay even more.
Is it p2w? Nope, more like pay to not play a game or pay to show off.
3)Gamers which I would say just want to play more because they like game but they can't because of work/school/family/etc.
They are involved in game. They trying to earn stuff by ingame ways because it's fun and rewarding for them. They don't like shortcuts.
But sometimes they just get hyped.
New cool looking skin in gem store but I don't have enough gold or I had different plans for my gold. New cool finisher. Promotion on bank slots etc.
If they are hyped enough and don't have ingame resources for this they would use wallet. Just it. Like me when collection expander was introduced.
I was waiting for this ages, i wanted it here and now but I also needed my gold for something else (I was in the middle of ascended armor crafting) so I used my wallet. It was worth it.
Does this is p2w? Nope.

If you describe win as achieve the goal there probably every game in is a p2w.
You can always just buy an account. You can always pay someone to play for you and do something. You can always even bribe other players so you "win".
You in theory achieved the goal. You have great account, unique item, highest level, won the pvp match. But have you won?

p2w in classic way is to pay x money to get advantage on other players in either pvp or pve. Alternative either does not exists (so you can't get this "buff" in different way) or it's something like 2 month worths of boring as hell grind or 5$ dollars.
It is also a gameplay advantage, better gear, weapon, skills and any other not balanced "cheat" which makes you just plain better at.
What it could be?
Ammunition which instead of 3 hits to kill need 2 or 1.
Consumable buffs which gives you twice as damage or health.
etc

#21 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:21 PM

View Postmaster21, on 03 April 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Anything bad with this? IMO not. His choice.
The bad thing is that game designers want to make money, so they build the game to encourage him to pay. This means that they intentionally insert boring things, blocks, grind etc., and that affects everyone, including those that would never pay.

#22 Krazzar

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:34 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 03 April 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

The bad thing is that game designers want to make money, so they build the game to encourage him to pay. This means that they intentionally insert boring things, blocks, grind etc., and that affects everyone, including those that would never pay.
That is continually repeated but never proven.  Quite simply a myth used to justify and excuse the actual argument: people with a large time commitment dislike that someone else can even the playing field somewhat by using the gem trade.  Get the "resident psychologists" here to chime in on unhealthy attachment to a game.

Edited by Krazzar, 03 April 2014 - 04:37 PM.


#23 RandolfRa

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:37 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 03 April 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

That is continually repeated but never proven.  Quite simply a myth.
Kappa

I mean seriously. Look at say bank size. You really think that's not intentional? Runescape had a bigger bank 14 years ago.

Edited by RandolfRa, 03 April 2014 - 04:42 PM.


#24 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:40 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 03 April 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

That is continually repeated but never proven.
GW2 is proof though

Also, this is a talk by an actual F2P designer in China. It's not some conspiracy myth, it's a working business model.

Edited by raspberry jam, 03 April 2014 - 04:42 PM.


#25 Krazzar

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:12 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 03 April 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

GW2 is proof though

Also, this is a talk by an actual F2P designer in China. It's not some conspiracy myth, it's a working business model.

So your proof GW2 is P2W is a myth and your proof the myth exists is GW2.  Couldn't define a cyclical argument any better.  At least you don't hide your bias or claim to have any grounds for the argument.

Nevermind most games these days monetize, regardless of payment model.  Those concepts apply to nearly every game in every genre. The Battlefield series started offering "shortcut packs" with BF3 and continue with BF4. Does that make BF4 P2W? Even cosmetic options are considered P2W now under these definitions, therefore nearly every game is P2W.  DLC, microtransactions, shortcut packs, lock-out removals; there's no way around it these days.  Games are made to make money, that doesn't mean it's P2W.  If it becomes unbearable you stop playing, but some are far too attached to ever give it up but have enough time to complain about it in multiple threads.

Edited by Krazzar, 03 April 2014 - 05:14 PM.


#26 RandolfRa

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:16 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 03 April 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

So your proof GW2 is P2W is a myth and your proof the myth exists is GW2.  Couldn't define a cyclical argument any better.  At least you don't hide your bias or claim to have any grounds for the argument.

Nevermind most games these days monetize, regardless of payment model.  Those concepts apply to nearly every game in every genre. The Battlefield series started offering "shortcut packs" with BF3 and continue with BF4. Does that make BF4 P2W? Even cosmetic options are considered P2W now under these definitions, therefore nearly every game is P2W.  DLC, microtransactions, shortcut packs, lock-out removals; there's no way around it these days.  Games are made to make money, that doesn't mean it's P2W.  If it becomes unbearable you stop playing, but some are far too attached to ever give it up but have enough time to complain about it in multiple threads.
Sounds like it wasn't a myth after all.

#27 Krazzar

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:23 PM

View PostRandolfRa, on 03 April 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

Sounds like it wasn't a myth after all.

A myth when applied to GW2.  Those features exist with other games to be sure, but they don't all exist in GW2 and there's no evidence in GW2.  Items have not become more difficult to get, they have not added more obstacles, if anything they've removed and reduced obstacles. It's hard to complain the game is too easy, has nothing to do, and has too many obstacles to get what you want in the same breath.

And in case you haven't been paying attention, monetization does not mean P2W, which was clearly stated, unless you're saying nearly every game out there now is P2W because you can spend more than the box price on it.

Edited by Krazzar, 03 April 2014 - 05:26 PM.


#28 Bryant Again

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:25 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 03 April 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

The bad thing is that game designers want to make money, so they build the game to encourage him to pay. This means that they intentionally insert boring things, blocks, grind etc., and that affects everyone, including those that would never pay.

It still blows my mind that any game labeled an 'MMO' and set in a fantasy world cannot exist without being bogged down by 'make $$$' mechanics (for lack of a better term). All the more reason I want them headed towards the expansion model, since I feel it can (can, not will) intrude into gameplay the least, unlike this 'F2P hell' that it's currently stuck in. There was a lot of things I was expecting of GW2, but a 'free-to-play' model was absolutely not one of them.

#29 Craywulf

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:32 PM

Have you ever said "I beat that game." when responding to conversation about a specific game...like Zelda? Which basically implying you "won". So you pretty much stop playing and move on to the next game. Having said this...when you use gems to "pay to win"...do you consider it "beating the game"? Do you move on to the next game? No...so calling the purchase of gems "pay to win" is misnomer. Especially in reference to GW2.

Using gems to bypass time sinks is not winning, but simply a way of leveraging their time invested, because we don't play MMOs to beat them, we play for contentment of our leisurely time. Even when we are achievement oriented in our play, we play MMOs to be part of something, to feel inclusive or even exclusive. But it's never a case of beating the game and walking away to call it a victory. There are players who have achieved everything there is to offer in World Of Warcraft, or GW2 and yet they are still playing. They play will their guildmates, they play to participate and satisfy a desire to be part of something.

Gem purchasing is merely a form of time-sink management, it's definitely not winning.

Edited by Craywulf, 03 April 2014 - 05:34 PM.


#30 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:56 PM

View PostCraywulf, on 03 April 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

snip

That's because theoretically, new challenges are added to the game further down the line.  If GW2 didn't have the Living Story adding new Achievements and new shininess (Ascended gear), then suffice to say, there are probably people who would either be willing to grind because there's ultimately nothing else to do in the game as far as achieving anything or WvW until they got bored of it.

You do not beat, or become victorious, in an MMO in its entirety.  You defeat bits of it.

And to that bit about WoW and GW2, I only know of one guy who actually got all the Achievements in WoW on one character... its not really the same as completing it, because there are like 10 other classes to do it on.  As far as GW2, I'd love to see that.

People set their own conditions for victory and achievement in a game.  Its why a high-end raiding guild never bothers to become the top rated PvP guild.  They hit the wall and take a hiatus.  There are plenty of people who do log in for the social bit, but you'd have to find me the person who's going to avoid playing new games because all his friends are entrenched in the old ones, even when there's nothing new for him to achieve in the old game.


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