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#1 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 07:16 AM

Apatiksremark made a fantastic post on reddit, showcasing the "achievements" that need to be completed to unlock traits under the new system.
http://www.reddit.co...eds_to_be_done/
New characters (created after the patch) now need to unlock each and every trait individually, all (currently) 75 of them. You need to complete dungeon story modes, 100% area exploration, jumping puzzles, champs and story line steps among others.


Also included in the thread, the cost of simply buying the traits:
Posted Image

Quote

The picture shows that cost of traits in a SINGLE attribute line: meaning to unlock all the Guardian's Radiance traits, you need to pay 8,6g and 72 skill points. Thus, to unlock a class by buying all traits you currently need to pay 360 skill points and 43g.

Edited by Baron von Scrufflebutt, 19 April 2014 - 08:06 AM.


#2 Desild

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 10:32 AM

Not sure if brilliant, or horrible design. They could have least made them like skill points, with icons on the map to signal their exact position.

Good thing I've made all the characters I could possibly need...

#3 Improvavel

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 10:58 AM

Another amazing feedback from forums that couldn't keep their mouths shut about "how amazing it was to cap elite skills in GW1".

It wasn't amazing. It was incredible boring, dull and annoying. That is why skill tomes, elite or otherwise, were hot items in GW1.

#4 Datenshi92

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 11:32 AM

View PostImprovavel, on 19 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Another amazing feedback from forums that couldn't keep their mouths shut about "how amazing it was to cap elite skills in GW1".

It wasn't amazing. It was incredible boring, dull and annoying. That is why skill tomes, elite or otherwise, were hot items in GW1.

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm never going to shut up about "how amazing it is", and you know why? Because it all boils down to opinions and it was one the features that I personally loved in GW1. Capturing elite skills was usually a goal to look forward to. Sure, sometimes it was a bit frustrating, as I had to travel across all the continents to capture that very specific one but the adventure for it was what made it unique. Its one of those things that I felt accomplished after getting the one I wanted.

Skill tomes were hot items, not because there was a problem with the capturing feature per se, but rather because no one has the disposition to do the same trials for the 50th time. Its also why every skill you captured was made account-bound and easily obtainable from any skill-trainer for your alts. Since the game offered you more than 2 alternative ways of (re)acquiring them, why does it matter to you whether others love capturing them or not? To each their own, choose your method and leave others to do whatever they want.

Opinions may diverge now because everyone was already used the the "old system". But newbie players will never have such "privilege", they will just think that this is how the game is supposed to be and either hate it, because the prefer the generic trait-tree, or love it because of its uniqueness.


Back on-topic:
I just really, really hope that they don't make us go through any form of PvP to acquire said skills... or at least make it optional, using PvP currency to unlock them for PvE. I have tons of badges that need to be wasted and I just don't know what to use them on.

Edited by Datenshi92, 19 April 2014 - 12:07 PM.


#5 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 12:42 PM

View PostDatenshi92, on 19 April 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Back on-topic:
I just really, really hope that they don't make us go through any form of PvP to acquire said skills... or at least make it optional, using PvP currency to unlock them for PvE. I have tons of badges that need to be wasted and I just don't know what to use them on.

These require WvW:
Arcane Lightning- Befriend the Hylek camp so they will join you as allies.
Map: Eternal Battlegrounds

Earth’s Embrace- Capture Stonegaze Spire.
Map: Edge of the Mists

Strength of Stone- Befriend the dredge camp so they will join you as allies.
Map: Eternal Battle grounds

Arcane Abatement- Complete the Obsidian Sanctum jumping puzzle.
Map: Obsidian Sanctum

Evasive Arcana- defeat the overgrown grub
Map: Eternal battle grounds


At the same time, this also means that WvW players now have 70 traits that they can only obtain in PvE or they need to pay insane prices for them.

#6 Liquidzoil

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 12:44 PM

I don't know.... Makes me think Anet is driving out the hardcore WvW community with this. Those guys don't PVE and just power level in WvW. They'd rather get it than get 360 skill points and spend 40g. Sooner or later, the 3rd highest pop of players will leave. I see it like this, PVE, PVX, WvW, RP, sPVP.


View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 19 April 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

These require WvW:
Arcane Lightning- Befriend the Hylek camp so they will join you as allies.
Map: Eternal Battlegrounds

Earth’s Embrace- Capture Stonegaze Spire.
Map: Edge of the Mists

Strength of Stone- Befriend the dredge camp so they will join you as allies.
Map: Eternal Battle grounds

Arcane Abatement- Complete the Obsidian Sanctum jumping puzzle.
Map: Obsidian Sanctum

Evasive Arcana- defeat the overgrown grub
Map: Eternal battle grounds


At the same time, this also means that WvW players now have 70 traits that they can only obtain in PvE or they need to pay insane prices for them.
Lol.
Surprise surprise.
I hate how they force their players to content they don't even want to do in every patch.

Edited by Liquidzoil, 19 April 2014 - 12:49 PM.


#7 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 12:49 PM

View PostLiquidzoil, on 19 April 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I don't know.... Makes me think Anet is driving out the hardcore WvW community with this. Those guys don't PVE and just power level in WvW.

It does seem like their plan to "unify rewards" was simply a way to get more players to play PvE.

#8 Liquidzoil

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:01 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 19 April 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

It does seem like their plan to "unify rewards" was simply a way to get more players to play PvE.
This is wrong. It's forced content. I mean, many PVErs are disgusted with the LS having WvW content. Imagine this.
Speaking from a WvWer perspective, I can buy it, but it will take me a long time to get 360 skill points.
Now, speaking from a PVEr perspective, some of the traits require me to go to WvW. I can buy it, but might as well save my dough for the long run.

I'm calling it now, the sky will fall on ANet if they keep it up.

Edited by Liquidzoil, 19 April 2014 - 01:02 PM.


#9 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:09 PM

View PostLiquidzoil, on 19 April 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

This is wrong. It's forced content.
Speaking from a WvWer perspective, I can buy it, but it will take me a long time to get 360 skill points.
Now, speaking from a PVEr perspective, some of the traits require me to go to WvW. I can buy it, but might as well save my dough for the long run.


I definitely agree that it's a very shitty idea: I was just pointing out what type of content (PvE), seems to be promoted with these ideas. It's the same thing with sPvP: the loss of UAX and forcing players to waste 100+ skill points PER CHARACTER (along with gold) to simply unlock traits/skills/amulets, while skill points and gold are very much a PvE currency, shows the same pattern.
As I said, "unifying rewards" seems to have been the codename for "let's get players to do more PvE or at least make their lives harder if they choose not to do it". It's bullshit.

#10 chefwaffle

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:13 PM

View PostLiquidzoil, on 19 April 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

I mean, many PVErs are disgusted with the LS having WvW content. Imagine this.
Anet have become experts in adding more fuel to the fire.

#11 Phineas Poe

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:23 PM

People bitch and moan about how there's nothing to do in GW2, and then they give you something to do and it's all of a sudden a big problem that it's expensive to use the workaround.

It's like players want instant gratification, but then complain when they've got nothing to do.

Side edit: I can relate to WvW players disliking PvE. I think a potential solution to this would be to make them unlockable with badges of honor in place of gold in WvW.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 19 April 2014 - 01:24 PM.


#12 chefwaffle

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:28 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 19 April 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

People bitch and moan about how there's nothing to do in GW2, and then they give you something to do and it's all of a sudden a big problem that it's expensive to use the workaround.

It's like players want instant gratification, but then complain when they've got nothing to do.

Side edit: I can relate to WvW players disliking PvE. I think a potential solution to this would be to make them unlockable with badges of honor in place of gold in WvW.
People like something to do that's not forced content. Not like this, it's like you're forcing a toothless baby to eat a steak or forcing a girl to marry you. Want examples of not forced content? New explorable areas, new dungeons, interesting LS and not a recycled one, etc.

As for the WvW solution, they won't. The goal of this is to get more people to PVE. Oh sorry, I mean, forced more people to do PVE.

Edited by chefwaffle, 19 April 2014 - 01:31 PM.


#13 Shayne Hawke

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:42 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 19 April 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

People bitch and moan about how there's nothing to do in GW2, and then they give you something to do and it's all of a sudden a big problem that it's expensive to use the workaround.

They didn't give players anything to do though.  All the stuff done to unlock traits was in the game before.

#14 Phineas Poe

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:43 PM

View Postchefwaffle, on 19 April 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

People like something to do that's not forced content. Not like this, it's like you're forcing a toothless baby to eat a steak. Want examples? New explorable areas, new dungeons, interesting LS and not a recycled one.

Okay. As a PvX player that does PvP/WvW and also participates in end-game content like FOTM on a daily basis, I'm going to illuminate a big problem about how GW2 was designed pre-feature that I don't think you're taking under consideration here.

A player could go into WvW and level from 2-80 following a commander, unlocking all of his skills, and having absolutely zero comprehension about his class. This player could do renown hearts and vistas all the way to level 80 and queue up for a FOTM run and have absolutely no idea about party roles or how his class best contributes.

In essence, you have a problem where the game's system doesn't actually make a point to ever make sure that players are learning how to play the game. While it's very possible that same player will just be carried through story mode or will party up with a better player to kill that champ for them, there's at least at its base form some kind of skill check being implemented here. There's also the workaround of being able to outright buy these traits with gold, but because of the addition requirement of skill points, it's not a strictly buy-to-win system.

This system deliberately pushes players into killing champs and doing dungeons so that they are pretty much required to experience this type of content before they reach level 80 and queue up for that FOTM run, or before they join my guild looking to do end-game content like Tequatl and Wurm.

I don't mind teaching new players the ways of the game, but some of the people we've picked up that are looking to do FOTM are just so clueless. And it's not that they're necessarily bad players, it's just that the game doesn't in any way require them to do anything meaningfully challenging before they reach level 80 and are pushed into higher-end content. They never really were pushed to learn anything.

You may argue that in GW1 leveling was meaningless, and that this push to find traits is another form of vertical progression being pushed into the game, but one thing that was in GW1 that wasn't in GW2 was challenge from the get-go, and that to reach the final missions of any campaign you had to complete some relatively difficult content---and have to cap some skills to do so!

So while I understand your position as a hardcore WvWer, and while I do think my suggestion of making badges an alternate currency is something worth considering, "forcing" players to do certain (i.e., more difficult) content than just mindlessly following a blue chip or filling hearts before they unlock the full potential of their class is something that is long overdue and should've been in the game in the first place.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 19 April 2014 - 01:45 PM.


#15 Shayne Hawke

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:53 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 19 April 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

So while I understand your position as a hardcore WvWer, and while I do think my suggestion of making badges an alternate currency is something worth considering, "forcing" players to do certain (i.e., more difficult) content than just mindlessly following a blue chip or filling hearts before they unlock the full potential of their class is something that is long overdue and should've been in the game in the first place.

They will just follow the blue chip or fill enough hearts to farm the gold and skill points necessary to buy the manuals and still give no attention to champions or dungeons.  Or worse, they will just not bother with buying manuals at all and not have traits.  After all, from the perspective of any individual in the zerg, not bothering with traits has little impact on how effective the zerg is as a whole.

#16 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:55 PM

View PostShayne Hawke, on 19 April 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

They didn't give players anything to do though.  All the stuff done to unlock traits was in the game before.

More importantly though: it's not that we object progression (or "something to do"), the problem is that we object to certain kind of progression. We had the same issue with ascended gear: yes, it gave us something to do, but it gave us something to do that was in direct contradiction with what the game was supposed to be about. And it's the exact same issue we've had since launch (and it's the same thing I've bitched about in the content-thread): we bought the game based on the ideas A.Net presented. And those ideas spoke of a game with a certain type of progression and a certain type of grind. Not only that, but they also sold the game as lacking a certain type of progression. Instead, not only did we not get the type of progression that they said we'll get (mostly because it ended up being reserved for the cash shop), we also got the type of progression that they said we wouldn't need to deal with.


Yes, this gives players shit to do. But it's the wrong kind of shit.

#17 davadude

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:01 PM

The only thing that surprises me is that this exact system existed in Guild Wars 1, but it's a problem now in the sequel.  I agree that the prices are too high (removing the skill point requirement would be okay, as you earn coins in all gamemodes), but this update has simply changed traits to be an almost identical version of the elite capture system.

EDIT: Miswrote elite capture entirely...

Edited by davadude, 19 April 2014 - 04:39 PM.

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#18 Shayne Hawke

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:06 PM

The way people keep describing this system as being similar as to what was in Guild Wars almost makes me think that you had to unlock attribute levels with your Signets of Capture.

#19 chefwaffle

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:16 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 19 April 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

snip
They can learn it in time. And besides, there are guides everywhere. They can just read that like what most people do. Also, do you really think that the likes of Ogro of Red Guard did some major PVE to figure out and set the meta of his class pre-patch in WvW? I don't think so. As for FOTM, most new players are clueless but not because of karma training. It's because it's all new to them. Give them a week or so, and they'll figure it out.

And as if different builds make a difference in PVE. It's all about the damage. All class feels the same. No complicated builds required, even now with the introduction of ferocity, Zerker is the way to go. So yeah, no need to learn the complications of a class if you're not going to WvW or SPVP. As I said before, there are guides everywhere.

Oh and this. This is from the FAQs.   

Quote

Isn't ArenaNet going to ruin the game by making their game more like all the other MMORPGs?

No. ArenaNet has specifically said that they are not trying to make another World of Warcraft clone. Their core ideals of accessibility, playing how you want to play, the ability to play with your friends, and not having to wait until maximum level to 'begin playing the game' have been prominently mentioned in the press for the game. The game also does not use the conventional "Holy Trinity" system of DPS, healer, and tank, but instead uses a damage, control, and support system. [1]
Playing how you want to play. Not playing how Anet wants you to play, which is happening right now.

Edited by chefwaffle, 19 April 2014 - 02:23 PM.


#20 Phineas Poe

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:48 PM

View PostShayne Hawke, on 19 April 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

The way people keep describing this system as being similar as to what was in Guild Wars almost makes me think that you had to unlock attribute levels with your Signets of Capture.

Well, you're right. It's not a 1:1 translation of the system, but since weapon skills and utility skills already have a system of unlocks, it made more sense to do this with traits.

Tell me: if they did this with utility skills instead of traits, would you feel any differently about the system?

#21 Phineas Poe

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:59 PM

View Postchefwaffle, on 19 April 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

They can learn it in time. And besides, there are guides everywhere. They can just read that like what most people do.

Learn it in time? With their weight on my shoulders, you mean.

I must've had the same conversation with hundreds of engineers over the past 18 months since I began writing guides to the class. I've grown tired of it to the point where I don't update them anymore. I just watch Guanglai and Wolfineer do all the talking. I've grown tired of explaining even the basest elements of this game because the game itself fails to teach them. Because players run around with a condi rifle build all the way to 80 because, why not? The game never forced them into doing anything that shows them that it's a shitty ♥♥♥♥ing setup. They just pick flowers and stare at cliffs to 80.

Tell me: are you an officer of a guild? Do you manage events?

Because from my experience if I tell 150 people to read up a guide on how to do Tequatl that I and other people helped put together, maybe 50 will look at it. Only 25 will probably make it to the end of the page. People play games to play them. Most don't care enough to look at outside literature. You think the majority of people read that kind of stuff, or take the work of others seriously enough? Wurm is a very basic fight at the end of the day, but so many people refuse to actually read up on how to do the fight that you're always set back at square one because someone who didn't bother to read up on the fight chose to afk at a merchant and drew the head away from the wall.

You know how WvW commanders are mocked for yelling and repeating themselves all the time? But if they only said it once people wouldn't do it right. Players individually have poor reading and listening habits, and as a crowd they have the intellectual capacity of a group of fifth graders.

The status quo just is not acceptable, and is driving some of my best players into fatigue constantly teaching people how to just use a fire field. Some of the best players I've had the opportunity to play with have quit the game, not because they were frustrated by a lack of permanent content, but because the average player just is so clueless about how to play the game properly.

But the thing is, it's not their fault. The game just failed to institute a system that teaches them.

This is that system being put into place.

View Postchefwaffle, on 19 April 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

And as if different builds make a difference in PVE ... All class feels the same.

Spoken like a true, ignorant "hardcore WvWer."

Edited by Phineas Poe, 19 April 2014 - 03:05 PM.


#22 davadude

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 03:00 PM

View PostShayne Hawke, on 19 April 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

The way people keep describing this system as being similar as to what was in Guild Wars almost makes me think that you had to unlock attribute levels with your Signets of Capture.

As Poe already said, in GW2, skills are unlocked by simply killing three or four foes, and could be likened to the attribute points in GW1.  Where as the elites in GW1 could be compared to the traits in GW2.  Identical.
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#23 Phineas Poe

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 03:10 PM

Sorry it appears I missed this part.

View Postchefwaffle, on 19 April 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Playing how you want to play. Not playing how Anet wants you to play, which is happening right now.

I think this is one of the most misunderstood quotes put forth by ArenaNet. "Playing how you want to play" shouldn't mean completing vistas and POIs to 80 and then rolling your condi guardian build into fractals and being indignant when asked to run something more optimal, sorry.

A game needs to teach people how to play the game. And at the end of the day if you're going to be a PvE player you should at the very least run a dungeon or two before you reach level 80. "Playing how you want to play" doesn't necessarily mean "ignore basic gameplay mechanics."

Edited by Phineas Poe, 19 April 2014 - 03:12 PM.


#24 Shayne Hawke

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 04:13 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 19 April 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

Well, you're right. It's not a 1:1 translation of the system, but since weapon skills and utility skills already have a system of unlocks, it made more sense to do this with traits.

Tell me: if they did this with utility skills instead of traits, would you feel any differently about the system?

My interpretation of such a system adapted to utility skills would be to have specific tasks unlock specific skills with the alternative option of buying the skills for piles of silver/gold and some skill points, more than what they cost now.  To be clear, this would apply to healing skills and elite skills.  The convenience payoff found in the new trait system has no equal with this utility skill system, so there is no trade-off of price or time investment for convenience.

The problem with this system is that it's wholly worse.  You don't even get anything out of changing the current utility skill system to this new one.  Maybe the option of doing a specific thing to unlock the skill rather than pay for it seems like a plus, but doing that one thing will probably cost you more time and effort than what it would take to farm up the skill point(s) you needed under the old system.

Thinking of it another way, if the game had been like that from the start, it wouldn't be such a bad thing as long as it made sense how to get those skills.  PvE players would want a means to get those skills from doing PvE, PvP players from PvP, and WvW players from WvW.  The system in Guild Wars of skills learned in PvE being unlocked in PvP worked because the original design was for players to move from PvE to PvP, so you would expect people to unlock their stuff in PvE before moving on to use it in PvP.  If they just played PvP though, they had a fallback of unlocking the skills through Balthazar faction earned by playing PvP.  In Guild Wars 2, it's anyone's guess what ANet intends players to do, but what has happened is that three separate communities of people who only do one of the three game modes exist.  Each skill would therefore need six methods of unlocks, two for each game mode, one being task-based and the other being a purchasable unlock with currency specific to the game mode, which would then open up the skill for that character in other game modes.  Players that like to experience more than one game mode would be encouraged to unlock everything in a single game mode, because their progress in one mode would not amount to anything in another mode.

After all that, when you then consider changing it to the old system, where utility skills cost a few skill points and everything is automatically unlocked in PvP, everything about that old system feels better, particularly how skill points in themselves can be earned or worked towards for doing all kinds of things in either PvE or WvW, and PvP just gets the skills for free.  The same attitude applies here - if the system now was the system at launch, and we suddenly went to the old system where you buy one book and it unlocks everything in PvE and WvW, and PvP just has their unlocks for free, everything about that feels better, apart from the new re-spec limitations and costs, and then that's what people would be complaining about and asking for the reasoning behind such a change.

View Postdavadude, on 19 April 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

As Poe already said, in GW2, skills are unlocked by simply killing three or four foes, and could be likened to the attribute points in GW1.  Where as the elites in GW1 could be compared to the traits in GW2.  Identical.

"GW2 skills could be likened to the attribute points in GW1" - This is just wrong.  Guild Wars 2 weapon skills are earned haphazardly and are like skills from the earliest of quests in any of the Guild Wars campaigns.  Utility skills in Guild Wars 2 are like any skill you can buy at trainers in Guild Wars.  Attribute points in Guild Wars are like trait points (not traits) in Guild Wars 2.  There is no relation between Guild Wars 2 weapon skills and Guild Wars attribute points.  To say attribute points in Guild Wars are unlocked in the same way as weapon skills in Guild Wars 2 is to say that attribute points are earned by farming mobs in Guild Wars and care nothing of their actual method of acquisition of leveling and point quests.  Statements like these speak volumes of your familiarity with Guild Wars, to the point where I would even doubt you ever touched the game.

"elites in GW1 could be compared to the traits in GW2" - Barring the new method of unlocking that ANet introduced not even a week ago, please make this comparison of Guild Wars elites to Guild Wars 2 traits.

Edited by Shayne Hawke, 19 April 2014 - 04:32 PM.


#25 chefwaffle

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 04:56 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 19 April 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Snip
So just because you have a "terrible" experience, you assume that all people will be like that? Like I said before, it just takes time to learn these things. Everyone didn't know how to beat the new Teq when it first came out. Days gone by and most of the runs succeed nowadays. Also, that commander analogy is more of a server problem than anything. I'm from BG and well, people listen to the commander. Some don't, but most of them knows what to do. One more thing is that no one asked you to write guides. You're gonna write a guide and offer your help to people then lose get piss at them for not listening. If Guang and Wolfineer can endure it, then the problem is with you, not with the community.

View PostPhineas Poe, on 19 April 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Spoken like a true, ignorant "hardcore WvWer."
First off, I never claimed that I'm a hardcore WvWer. And yeah, I'll stand by my statement that all class feels the same and runs the same build in PVE, which is pure DPS. Shout heal warr, AH guard, Hammer Warr, Condi builds, are not as efficient as the pure damage build in PVE up to now. The people who are using PVT, Knight's, Rabid, etc and the anti-zerkers have all switched to zerker after they got enough experienced running these dungeons.

View PostPhineas Poe, on 19 April 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

Sorry it appears I missed this part.

I think this is one of the most misunderstood quotes put forth by ArenaNet. "Playing how you want to play" shouldn't mean completing vistas and POIs to 80 and then rolling your condi guardian build into fractals and being indignant when asked to run something more optimal, sorry.

A game needs to teach people how to play the game. And at the end of the day if you're going to be a PvE player you should at the very least run a dungeon or two before you reach level 80. "Playing how you want to play" doesn't necessarily mean "ignore basic gameplay mechanics."
This is forced content. Tell me, are you going to eat the food you don't like? Playing how you want to play means that you have the freedom of choice whether to do this or not. Example. Have you played the new Mario 3d? After 5 failed runs, they'll give you a choice whether to use the white tanooki suit which is God mode. Is it forced on them? No. Is it avoidable? Of course! That's "Playing how you want to play."

Edited by chefwaffle, 19 April 2014 - 04:59 PM.


#26 Veji

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 05:59 PM

View PostDesild, on 19 April 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Not sure if brilliant, or horrible design. They could have least made them like skill points, with icons on the map to signal their exact position.

Good thing I've made all the characters I could possibly need...

Yeah, still leveling a Necro and an Engy here, so the change is sucking.  As long as the SP cost is low though, i can just eat the gold cost.

#27 Phineas Poe

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:08 PM

View Postchefwaffle, on 19 April 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

First off, I never claimed that I'm a hardcore WvWer. And yeah, I'll stand by my statement that all class feels the same and runs the same build in PVE, which is pure DPS.

Then you have no real experience doing high-level fractals or open-world raids like Wurm or Tequatl, at least not in the sense where it is your responsibility to train other players or organize and lead this type of content. Otherwise you'd know the intricacy that goes into organizing these events.

Is DPS still a factor? Absolutely. But support skills like reflects, aegis, blinds, and protection are very integral to smooth runs in end-game content. It's not just "pure DPS." If it was, off-hand pistol wouldn't be the go-to weapon choice for thieves in fractals, nor would guardians run the hammer in FOTM 50.

And "every class feels the same?" Really? So you think two necromancers contribute to their groups in the same exact ways that two elementalists do? Or two mesmers? Such oversimplifications are why I can't bother to take you seriously. A warrior will never ever replace a necromancer or an engineer in a condi group at Wurm, nor would you ever see a warrior in a reflect group.

This type of overhaul was needed to force players into doing more when leveling so that they're better prepared for end-game content. This game just caters to casuals at such a basic level that organizing stuff like Wurm/Tequatl is an absolute nightmare. And the solution to this is two-fold. It wouldn't be a problem if:

1. The game forced you in some capacity to group up with other players before reaching level 80 and unlocking the full potential of the class.

2. The game forced you to actually do more than complete renown hearts and vistas before reaching level 80.

Because what you have right now is a community full of (1) ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s that don’t have good communication skills because they didn’t ever have to learn any and (2) people who just don’t understand even the basest, most fundamental elements of this game: "I'll just drop my symbol of swiftness on a fire field!"

This results in things like the Wurm being next to impossible to complete outside of guild-organized events. Hell, it makes things like Wurm next to impossible even when it’s a guild-organized event. You argue that it just "takes time" to learn things, but the fact that even TTS can't regularly kill Wurm every day just shows the amount of organization and dedicated required to put that dick on farm status. And that's fine! But the game until this point just hasn't adequately prepared the average player for that type of content.

This is their attempt at preparing them. And if running story mode dungeons is just too much for them, then I guess they can go enjoy their God Mode hand-holding elsewhere.

Edit: Post of a billion edits.

Edited by Phineas Poe, 19 April 2014 - 06:32 PM.


#28 RandolfRa

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 07:46 PM

View Postdavadude, on 19 April 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

As Poe already said, in GW2, skills are unlocked by simply killing three or four foes, and could be likened to the attribute points in GW1.  Where as the elites in GW1 could be compared to the traits in GW2.  Identical.
Didn't gw1 have some pvp skill pack for sale though? It unlocked all skills and everything a pvp player would need. I can't recall how expensive it was.

edit: I checked the price, seems they were 10€ per campaign. Pretty steep. Not much better than what we have here to be honest.

Anyhow, what pvp player really needs all the traits in the first place? Almost all of the new traits are utterly useless in pvp anyway. Of course I'm not a fan of these unlockables but it's all the same as long as there are only one or two competitive builds per profession.

Edited by RandolfRa, 19 April 2014 - 07:57 PM.


#29 Desild

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 07:48 PM

Getting an Elite Skill was game changing. A Trait is so secondary and non-engaging that it doesn't justify the need to furfil certain conditions to unlock it.

Plus it would be cool if they gave traits cool icons instead of numbers.

#30 Improvavel

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 08:54 PM

There is an alternative to fulfill the conditions to acquire traits, which is to pay coin and skill points.

But it seems to me Anet is trying to achieve too many things with the trait system

1) They are giving new objectives for new players - Fine.

2) They are trying to lure players in other type of game play, by dangling a NON OPTIONAL carrot - why, why?
Haven't they learned with GW1?
It is probably really annoying for developers to create content a part of the population ignores, but that is their right as consumers.
People don't want to do PvE, they will not do PvE, People don't want to do PvP, they will not do PvP. Like in GW1 people wanted to play with their heroes/henchmen and they would not play with other people.

3) They are using traits as gold sinks - it seems to target the wrong population.
Players with lot of money probably already have all professions to level 80 (or at least 60) or they are clearly stubborn or a single character and this won't help them make another.

4) They are still listening to the part of forums that will never be happy instead of improving the game for those that like the game (those that like the game want more traits to play with).

View PostDatenshi92, on 19 April 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm never going to shut up about "how amazing it is", and you know why? Because it all boils down to opinions and it was one the features that I personally loved in GW1. Capturing elite skills was usually a goal to look forward to. Sure, sometimes it was a bit frustrating, as I had to travel across all the continents to capture that very specific one but the adventure for it was what made it unique. Its one of those things that I felt accomplished after getting the one I wanted.

Skill tomes were hot items, not because there was a problem with the capturing feature per se, but rather because no one has the disposition to do the same trials for the 50th time. Its also why every skill you captured was made account-bound and easily obtainable from any skill-trainer for your alts. Since the game offered you more than 2 alternative ways of (re)acquiring them, why does it matter to you whether others love capturing them or not? To each their own, choose your method and leave others to do whatever they want.

Opinions may diverge now because everyone was already used the the "old system". But newbie players will never have such "privilege", they will just think that this is how the game is supposed to be and either hate it, because the prefer the generic trait-tree, or love it because of its uniqueness.

Much more interesting than capping skills was to actually use them and try builds.

Non useful skills were ignored unless one was going for the title.




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