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#1 Haggus

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 12:30 AM

http://massively.joy...rong/#continued

There are many things about the game I believe they got right.  However, I do believe this article hits on many of the things that have irked myself and others since release.

Now, things such as heroes/henchmen had to go by the wayside to make this an MMO vs a CORPG like Guild Wars.  Many things, however, including the zone structures, "living story", and the necessity of grinds, ring true.

So, what do you think?  Are these unfounded rants? Or are these areas Arena Net should be worried about?

#2 I post stuff

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 12:55 AM

A-Net should stop trying to fix things that are relatively fine and focus on introducing content that is simply better than what we have already.

#3 Mordakai

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:05 AM

I think if there is the perception (rightly or wrongly) that Anet cares more about the cash shop than the game, that is a big issue.

I worry less about Lama finishers, and more about lack of new skins.  The only new complete armor skins introduced since launch have been cash only.

Worse still, the only way to get Black Lion weapon sets is from luck or paying crazy prices on the TP (if they are available).

#4 Neo Nugget

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 07:17 AM

View PostMordakai, on 11 May 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

The only new complete armor skins introduced since launch have been cash only.

*except ascended ;)

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#5 Feathermoore

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 01:46 PM

What is the typical armor skin addition rate in MMOs though? And I don't mean tiers of armor, I mean unique skins only.

I ask as I don't really care about armor looks for the most part in games and the MMOs that I have played the most in the past never added skins or also only added them to the cash shop with the exception of GW1.

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#6 Shayne Hawke

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 01:53 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 12 May 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

What is the typical armor skin addition rate in MMOs though? And I don't mean tiers of armor, I mean unique skins only.

I ask as I don't really care about armor looks for the most part in games and the MMOs that I have played the most in the past never added skins or also only added them to the cash shop with the exception of GW1.

Is GW really an exception though?  Those extra armor skins only came with the introduction of expansions for which people paid.

#7 konsta_hoptrop

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 01:54 PM

View PostNeo Nugget, on 11 May 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

*except ascended ;)

yeah and ascended set is fugly . Gem store sets are decent

#8 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 02:01 PM

Quote

... but I don't know who buys llama finishers ...

Not today Satan, not today.

#9 Zhaitan

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 02:26 PM

View PostMordakai, on 11 May 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

I think if there is the perception (rightly or wrongly) that Anet cares more about the cash shop than the game, that is a big issue.

I worry less about Lama finishers, and more about lack of new skins.  The only new complete armor skins introduced since launch have been cash only.

Worse still, the only way to get Black Lion weapon sets is from luck or paying crazy prices on the TP (if they are available).

I completely agree. I am fine w/ gemstore armor skins under 100g. But, what bothers me the most is that ANET manipulates the gold to gem conversion cost. It is steadily rising and now, it is at a point where I simply don't find myself motivated enough to grind more gold to get a new skin. So, I have taken a sabatical from GW.

Honestly, this game has pretty much reduced to a mere gold grind for skins.

I don't care if people flame me for that comment - I have 16350+ AP, a dragon, ran fractals countless times, have 90+ AR on my fractals toon. I have never bought a damn thing off gemstore w/ real money except for character slots when the game launched hoping I will get cool birthday minis. So, all in all, I am pretty sure I have played the game enough. And, at this point gemstore skins isn't a great motivator for a customer like me to continue playing this game regularly.

#10 FoxBat

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 02:34 PM

View PostZhaitan, on 12 May 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

But, what bothers me the most is that ANET manipulates the gold to gem conversion cost. It is steadily rising and now, it is at a point where I simply don't find myself motivated enough to grind more gold to get a new skin.

Remember when Ecto were 20s?

As the article suggests, its a symptom of inflation. Not "manipulation."

#11 Katsumi Kei

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 03:03 PM

I view only 3 points as true and the rest are "unfounded rants", as you said.

Like skin collecting? Really? I have no idea how it was in GW1, but it is perfect the way it is in gw2.  Not only the way you collect them, but also changing them on the fly. Yes, they do cost charges, but you earn them via exploration and sPVP and you can buy them from the gem store. I see nothing wrong with paying for that, since I have been playing the game for the last two years without the need of paying for anything. Also they "gave" me 50+ charges with the latest patch.

Henchies or heroes , GW1 was an CORPG, not a MMORPG, support npcs were not needed, they did advertise tGW2 for it's cooperative play with random people you see in the world. I prefer doing events with people rather than with NPCs and there are many people in zones.

Upscaling is absent, well just drop the RPG in the back and let's have an MMO only. I am glad they did drop that in the beta.

The world feels so small, no, it is huge and very vibrant. At this point the game needs new zones, since we are already bored with the existing ones, but the world is not small at all.

Dungeons kinda suck - Yes, they do. I liked fractals, since they force some teamplay, but the general dungeons are just there for people to speedrun them make gold and inflate the trade post.
The economy is bad - Yes, it is. Not only it's easier to make gold, but grinding for materials is very punishing too.
So where's that once-promised housing? - Right????

Edited by Katsumi Kei, 12 May 2014 - 03:06 PM.


#12 raspberry jam

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 03:13 PM

I agree with all points in the article, except housing. There's no need for it in my opinion.

View PostFeathermoore, on 12 May 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

What is the typical armor skin addition rate in MMOs though? And I don't mean tiers of armor, I mean unique skins only.

I ask as I don't really care about armor looks for the most part in games and the MMOs that I have played the most in the past never added skins or also only added them to the cash shop with the exception of GW1.
Every MMO is compared to World of Warcraft.

Edited by raspberry jam, 12 May 2014 - 03:14 PM.


#13 Feathermoore

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 03:21 PM

View PostShayne Hawke, on 12 May 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Is GW really an exception though?  Those extra armor skins only came with the introduction of expansions for which people paid.

With respect to my other MMO experiences, yes. Those MMOs never added any skins that weren't a different tier unless they were part of a cash shop of some sort, even in an expansion. But even GW only added them in expansion content so that is another valid point.

View Postraspberry jam, on 12 May 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Every MMO is compared to World of Warcraft.

That doesn't really answer my question at all. Especially as I don't know the armor history of WoW. WoW is considered the typical rate, what is that rate?

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#14 typographie

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:00 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 12 May 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

WoW is considered the typical rate, what is that rate?

As far as I am aware from my 2-3 years of playing WoW, skins were only ever added in major content updates; not just expansions, but major patches every few months as well. The new skins would be for gear with a higher item level, thus representing a partial tier stat increase as well, and usually located in either new dungeons/raids or higher-level PvP rewards.

I don't really feel like its a good comparison at all. In my opinion, GW2 adds new skins at a fine pace, and with the exception of a few reskins they are generally rather good quality. The problem is with the method of acquisition.

Edited by typographie, 12 May 2014 - 04:05 PM.


#15 raspberry jam

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:19 PM

View Posttypographie, on 12 May 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

I don't really feel like its a good comparison at all. In my opinion, GW2 adds new skins at a fine pace, and with the exception of a few reskins they are generally rather good quality. The problem is with the method of acquisition.
Yes, this is true.

#16 Feathermoore

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 05:03 PM

That isn't really my point. Cash shop skins are effectively irrelevant in regard to the addition of new skins. Every MMO that I played with cosmetic only skin additions put them in the cash shop (GW1 once again excluded). GW1 only added skins in expansion content in tandem with huge game updates and new continents. So far, GW2 is following industry standard when it comes to skins and we haven't had a content addition on the scale of an expansion.

The lack of new skins doesn't really have any reason to phase anyone unless it phases you in respect to every MMO out there as well. Which could be a personally valid complaint, as long as it is made across the board since it is the same everywhere else.

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#17 kalendraf

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:04 PM

I agree with a few of the points in that article, but not all:

1) The world feels so small
While it would be nice to eventually see outer areas included, I think the current number of maps offer plenty of area to explore.  GW1 had the luxury of 3 separate campaigns and an expansion to fill out the maps.  The content in GW2 is roughly the size of Prophecies (minus Maguuma Jungle, Crystal Desert, Ring of Fire, but plus Rata Sum, Orr, Southsun).  In addition, each map in GW2 seems a lot bigger, certainly in terms of things to do (Hearts, Vistas, POIs, JPs).  Thus, GW2s available maps don't feel small to me, and they offer a lot more variety (per map) than the maps in GW1 did.

2) Upscaling is absent
Having played a few games that allow up and down scaling, I prefer the GW2 method of only downscaling.  While this may seem more restrictive, it helps to set a progress for certain areas.   Without that, there's always the risk that players may stumble into regions far too difficult, but not provide significant feedback about why they are struggling.  Upscaling in GW2 might be tricky - they could easily upscale some numbers (health, dmg, toughness, etc), but it would be unlikely to include traits which at higher levels become a bigger and bigger factor in character performance.  It's better to just not upscale - that way when a low level toon does do something dangerous, like a low level toon crossing from Wayfarer into Frostgorge, they have a very understandable indicator (<level 15 toon vs. level 70+ mobs) of why they are getting facestomped.

3) There are no henchies or heroes
I agree with this to a point.  I loved heroes in GW1, but it would be hard to make them workable in GW2, especially normal PvE content.  However, the author does raise a good point - the PS has something almost like heroes/henchies, and it would be really cool if we could tweak their stats or gear, or even pick alternate ones for different parts of the story.

4) Dungeons kinda suck
Completely agree.  I really dislike dungeons in GW2.  Several paths are too long for my preference.  Also, I dislike that they tied so many skins to these.  You need to grind and grind and grind in order to get tokens.

5) The gear and lockbox situation is frustrating
Completely agree.  Game is sorely lacking for variety in armor skins.  The emphasis on RNG with the black lion chests/tickets is frustrating.

6) The economy is bad, and it should feel bad
Partially agree.  Ease of crafting leads to a situation where there are too many crafters making too much supply of intermediate items, driving down the final cost of items.  There's only a few niche areas for profit.  However, GW2 inclusion of a TP still beats the snot out of GW1's complete lack of a TP, and having to waste hours and hours in Spamadan.

7) So where's that once-promised housing?
I'm on the fence for this.  While it might be nice to see something added, it's way down in the priority list for me.

#18 Hybarf Tics

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:42 PM

View Postkonsta_hoptrop, on 12 May 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

yeah and ascended set is fugly . Gem store sets are decent
Not anymore now they are also ugly and they still have the nerve to ask you for your wallet.
They are also still based on butt capes and trench coat and they couldn't give a Skritt's butt about our opinion.

#19 raspberry jam

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:17 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 12 May 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

That isn't really my point. Cash shop skins are effectively irrelevant in regard to the addition of new skins. Every MMO that I played with cosmetic only skin additions put them in the cash shop (GW1 once again excluded). GW1 only added skins in expansion content in tandem with huge game updates and new continents. So far, GW2 is following industry standard when it comes to skins and we haven't had a content addition on the scale of an expansion.

The lack of new skins doesn't really have any reason to phase anyone unless it phases you in respect to every MMO out there as well. Which could be a personally valid complaint, as long as it is made across the board since it is the same everywhere else.
The difference is that WoW placated the people hunting skins and the people hunting stats at the same time. I mean, yes, they have cosmetic items for purchase, but if you want to get new skins by only doing things in game, it is possible.
GW2 on the other hand placates the people hunting stats by giving them new stat upgrades that those same people say are insignificant anyway (ascended), and tells the people hunting skins to go pay for them.

If you are comparing GW2 to actual F2P games, that says a lot about the new "industry standard". :unsure:

#20 I post stuff

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:28 AM

I don't see anything wrong with the method of acquisition. Some of the coolest skins can either be gained from a few dungeon runs with no RNG attached or bought from cash shop for a fairly affordable sum of ingame currency.

#21 Haggus

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:46 AM

Some comments were made saying the world was large.  The zones themselves, far from being expansive, feel restrictive.  It's block after block of zones, instead of the feel of an organic world.  zoning could have been done better, and the fish bowl effect of mountain barriers everywhere gives the areas a closed-in feel.

View PostNeo Nugget, on 11 May 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

*except ascended ;)

If you like to grind out the crafting.  Like they have tried with WvW: "It's awesome!  You WILL play this part fo the game, or we will make it uncomfortable for you."

#22 Bryant Again

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:47 AM

View PostI post stuff, on 13 May 2014 - 12:28 AM, said:

I don't see anything wrong with the method of acquisition.

Take out any means of spending real-life cash on the game - sans the box price - and the acquisition methods don't make a whole lot of sense. It's interesting you bring up dungeon tokens because that's my favorite example of 'no sense make' regards to reward progression: A minimum of 20 dungeon runs for a full set of armor is nigh absurd.

#23 I post stuff

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:09 AM

View PostBryant Again, on 13 May 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

Take out any means of spending real-life cash on the game - sans the box price - and the acquisition methods don't make a whole lot of sense. It's interesting you bring up dungeon tokens because that's my favorite example of 'no sense make' regards to reward progression: A minimum of 20 dungeon runs for a full set of armor is nigh absurd.
Uhm what? 20 dungeons?!

You need 1380 tokens for full set of armor, that 7 and a half full runs.

I personally don't find it obsurd. Had to get a full of those things a few times, most recently CoE, and it didn't bother me much.

In other MMORPGs I played it took hundreds of runs to get a piece of good dungeon armor.

Edited by I post stuff, 13 May 2014 - 01:13 AM.


#24 RandolfRa

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:27 AM

View Postkonsta_hoptrop, on 12 May 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

yeah and ascended set is fugly . Gem store sets are decent
To be honest the human medium female set is pretty cool. :P Too bad none of my characters can use it.

Edited by RandolfRa, 13 May 2014 - 01:29 AM.


#25 Bryant Again

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:27 AM

View PostI post stuff, on 13 May 2014 - 01:09 AM, said:

Uhm what? 20 dungeons?!

You need 1380 tokens for full set of armor, that 7 and a half full runs.

More specifically, 20 dungeon path runs. A best case scenario could be 7 and a half full dungeon clears, but it's all heavily dependent on the dungeon and who you're able to find to run it. And it's still an oddly specific and drawn-out amount of dungeon tokens, but if you're fine with it we'll agree to disagree. But would you be against a different and/or improved manner of acquisiton?

#26 Andemius

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:30 AM

Quote

Small group dungeon gameplay is an obnoxious exercise in flopping around trying not to die and hoping that your AoE support skills land somewhere useful, not in methodical or skillful execution of team tactics, as you'd expect.

This is what I'd expect from a completely new player. While I do not wish to dismiss the validity of the review, as a reasonable portion, I agree with - this simply shows the author's lack of experience and/or ability to play the game at anything resembling high level.

#27 I post stuff

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 09:17 AM

View PostBryant Again, on 13 May 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

More specifically, 20 dungeon path runs. A best case scenario could be 7 and a half full dungeon clears, but it's all heavily dependent on the dungeon and who you're able to find to run it. And it's still an oddly specific and drawn-out amount of dungeon tokens, but if you're fine with it we'll agree to disagree. But would you be against a different and/or improved manner of acquisiton?
Yes I'm 100% fine with it right now, it doesn't bother me at all. Let's agree to disagree.

Every dungeon is puggable, trust me. If you want to get all the paths done on daily basis to get your armor asap, my advice would be to run some kind of support build that would allow you to get the dungeon done reliably regardless of what kind of 'Zerker you're in a party with.

In some dungeons, you can actually buy a path or two and break even thanks to the daily reward. This should reduce the time spent getting the skins even further.

#28 Bryant Again

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 10:00 AM

View PostI post stuff, on 13 May 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Every dungeon is puggable, trust me.

No need, I've pugged Dungeon Master. They're not hard. The hard/boring part was grinding the same TA path nearly 20 times in a row.

Edited by Bryant Again, 13 May 2014 - 10:01 AM.


#29 Katsumi Kei

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 11:16 AM

Oh, yes, going 100 times on raids in any other MMO to try getting some item on RNG is far less absurd than doing 20 dungeon runs for a FULL SET. Your logic makes little sense. Dungeons are bad because you can skip almost anything, stack on corners to maximize dmg and blast trough the content with full dps gear. The reward system is fair, 1 day = 180 tokens = gloves/boots/shoulder pads. Getting stuff for free is not as "fun" as people believe it is.

#30 Cube

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 11:54 AM

Wow, I honestly agree with everything written in this article. I'm fine with there being no heroes, but everything is major points that need to be addressed.




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