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#1 Kuskah

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 05:42 PM

Guild Wars 2 simply doesn't click with me, when it comes to universe/lore/whatever and I can't seem to find the reason why.

Thing is, I like fantasy setting, which GW2 certainly has. All the MMOs I've spent an extended period of time on clicked in when it comes to this.. I wouldn't call it immersion, maybe liking of the universe or whatever. Lineage 2, Aion, WoW, DDO, Ragnarok Online  even Neverwinter, which I've played only a couple of hours of, all gave me this feeling of likable environment or whatchamacallit. GW2 did not.

So I tried to do a checklist of stuff most of those games have and see if it matches with GW2:
☑ fantasy setting
☑ good looking areas
☑ diverse areas (snow/plains/forests/deserts or dry areas)
☑ diverse races
☑ diverse professions/classes

The main points seem to match.

For a while, I thought it was because it doesn't have the so called "Tolkien" races, as in Orcs, Elves, Dwarves etc. But then I noticed, neither does RO (pretty much everyone there has the same character model except for hair). Aion also has only 2 races. I guess some could argue that Asmodians would represent some sort of dark elves but still. So that's probably not it.

As I mentioned above, it's about the universe, not mechanics. I like the way GW2 handles a lot of things, from crafting and gathering to combat.

Anyone else feels like this or could hint at why I may?

#2 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 06:34 PM

One of my biggest issues is how optional the story is; basically, the default way to experience GW2 is to not experience any of the lore. You need to intentionally push yourself to experience the lore, otherwise the game is simply a different take on Tetris. Now, for a guy that absolutely despises reading novel-length dialogues in games, this sounds like a superb match; but it ended up being TOO optional. I think an RPG needs to force a certain amount of lore onto the player and GW2 doesn't force it enough.

#3 RandolfRa

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 01:48 AM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 28 June 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

One of my biggest issues is how optional the story is; basically, the default way to experience GW2 is to not experience any of the lore. You need to intentionally push yourself to experience the lore, otherwise the game is simply a different take on Tetris. Now, for a guy that absolutely despises reading novel-length dialogues in games, this sounds like a superb match; but it ended up being TOO optional. I think an RPG needs to force a certain amount of lore onto the player and GW2 doesn't force it enough.
Well to be fair Guild Wars 2 is a modern MMO and not an RPG. It has little to do with games such as Baldur's Gate, Might and Magic or Mass Effect.
In modern mmos story and lore tend to be more like clutter while in RPGs they are often closely tied with the core game experience.

Edited by RandolfRa, 29 June 2014 - 02:55 AM.


#4 Andemius

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 02:24 AM

I'd agree with the "optionallity" (what on earth kind of abomination of a word is that), of the story leads to missing a lot of the lore.

If you go and do World Exploration you'll probably pick up on a fair bit of it though.

#5 I post stuff

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 02:46 AM

Did you read forums much before joining? Because they can ruin the experience for you a lot.

#6 Mystika

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 03:41 AM

The Lore comes from GW1, and people that played GW1 are more apt to understand the lore of GW2 better than those that did not. GW1 is still active if you want to look into that. Also, the Guild Wars novels offer a lot of insight into the lore, and explain what happened between the time of GW1 and the time of GW2. You might want to look into those also.

#7 dakka dakka

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 05:41 AM

The way Anet has handled the accessibility of lore has been an issue that I hope will be corrected. However until then I suggest watching Wooden Potatoes youtube channel as it has TONS of lore bits and bobs that help players connect with the game.

#8 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 08:20 AM

View PostRandolfRa, on 29 June 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

Well to be fair Guild Wars 2 is a modern MMO and not an RPG. It has little to do with games such as Baldur's Gate, Might and Magic or Mass Effect.
In modern mmos story and lore tend to be more like clutter while in RPGs they are often closely tied with the core game experience.

And I don't like playing those RPGs because how how much they push the story onto me. I absolutely adored just following the green pointer in GW1; all while randomly sampling the lore. The lack of the green arrow was actually my initial concerns for GW2; I dreaded that I'll need to read through walls of text before being able to start/continue my killing spree. But then, just the opposite happened: after completing the training level, the story becomes completely optional. And the problem is made even worse because of how much content one needs to do and how much content one can find in a single map: folks are constantly recommending to explore other races' areas to get the needed XP to be able to continue. But the PS is tied to a map, the map you just left to grind the XP somewhere else.

Don't get me wrong: I love the accessibility that comes from not being forced into a very specific lore (For instance, factions in other MMOs are one of the primary reasons why I don't play those games: I get that they create immersion, but I'd rather play with my friends, access all the gold I have on my account or play an engineer sylvari.), but if one is going to create a living world, then players need to feel a connection with said world. And, as I said, I think that this connection is way too optional in GW2.
Keep in mind that this connection doesn't have to mean just restrictions: for instance, I think that giving the players the chance to access the PS from anywhere in the world, by simply pressing a "Start mission"-button in the PS panel would be a decent addition. As would the ability to replay it. It would certainly have to mean certain restrictions, but there's a lot of room between GW2's take on lore and something like Baldur's Gate.

#9 Haggus

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 10:11 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 29 June 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

And I don't like playing those RPGs because how how much they push the story onto me. I absolutely adored just following the green pointer in GW1; all while randomly sampling the lore. The lack of the green arrow was actually my initial concerns for GW2; I dreaded that I'll need to read through walls of text before being able to start/continue my killing spree. But then, just the opposite happened: after completing the training level, the story becomes completely optional. And the problem is made even worse because of how much content one needs to do and how much content one can find in a single map: folks are constantly recommending to explore other races' areas to get the needed XP to be able to continue. But the PS is tied to a map, the map you just left to grind the XP somewhere else.

Don't get me wrong: I love the accessibility that comes from not being forced into a very specific lore (For instance, factions in other MMOs are one of the primary reasons why I don't play those games: I get that they create immersion, but I'd rather play with my friends, access all the gold I have on my account or play an engineer sylvari.), but if one is going to create a living world, then players need to feel a connection with said world. And, as I said, I think that this connection is way too optional in GW2.
Keep in mind that this connection doesn't have to mean just restrictions: for instance, I think that giving the players the chance to access the PS from anywhere in the world, by simply pressing a "Start mission"-button in the PS panel would be a decent addition. As would the ability to replay it. It would certainly have to mean certain restrictions, but there's a lot of room between GW2's take on lore and something like Baldur's Gate.

I think they didn't spread out the PS enough.  They crammed too much into it too soon, which makes it feel meaningless by the time you hit level 50.  I could give two steaming turds, at that point, what Trahearn thinks.  It's all in the writing.  If you're going to have the living story be such a big part of the game, you need to be willing to make it matter more than a few map changes.  Maybe even change up parts of the original story.  I think enough idiots have saved Orr that we can maybe make it start to green up, like after Trahearn stuck his sword in "the source"(talk about sexual imagery with a hammer!).   Since Zhaitan is dead(yeah, spoiler whatever.  anyone reading this should have done that by now.  If not, get off your butt!), How about throwing another baddie into the mix?  Who knows? Maybe that is where the game is headed.  Unfortunately, they're taking their sweet time with it, which kills any desire to do more than maybe log on every so often.

Yes, there are many ways you can find to keep busy; but I want to be interested in the game, not just "keep busy." And guess what? the more interested I am...the more likely I might be to actually spend money in the cash shop.  They can only sell so many games before they have to rely on their big bread winner.

#10 RandolfRa

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 07:38 AM

Quote

Don't get me wrong: I love the accessibility that comes from not being forced into a very specific lore (For instance, factions in other MMOs are one of the primary reasons why I don't play those games: I get that they create immersion, but I'd rather play with my friends, access all the gold I have on my account or play an engineer sylvari.), but if one is going to create a living world, then players need to feel a connection with said world. And, as I said, I think that this connection is way too optional in GW2.
Keep in mind that this connection doesn't have to mean just restrictions: for instance, I think that giving the players the chance to access the PS from anywhere in the world, by simply pressing a "Start mission"-button in the PS panel would be a decent addition. As would the ability to replay it. It would certainly have to mean certain restrictions, but there's a lot of room between GW2's take on lore and something like Baldur's Gate.
It would be nice if people would feel more connected to the world, but I don't know if forcing the story more is going to help. The game has many different players while currently the story offers no dialogue choices and some of the characters have really frustrating personalities. It doesn't help that the player character with his boy scout attitude is the most annoying of them all.
Those features you mentioned would be useful though and in fact you should be able to replay LS season 2 content.

Edited by RandolfRa, 30 June 2014 - 07:43 AM.


#11 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 08:49 AM

View PostRandolfRa, on 30 June 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

It would be nice if people would feel more connected to the world, but I don't know if forcing the story more is going to help. The game has many different players while currently the story offers no dialogue choices and some of the characters have really frustrating personalities. It doesn't help that the player character with his boy scout attitude is the most annoying of them all.
Those features you mentioned would be useful though and in fact you should be able to replay LS season 2 content.

I think if one wants to create a believable world, then one needs to create a bunch of rules that can not be broken; you need to force certain content onto a player for the game to work. That's true for basically any game out there, even real-life games such as soccer, basketball, you name it.
And since a world, that operates on a different set of rules than our reality, is an integral part of the game, I think those rules need to be forced onto the player. But, as I said, there's a difference in the amount of rules that need to be forced onto a player; I think GW2 would benefit from being slightly less open.

#12 I post stuff

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:57 AM

In GW2 your character develops in an unusual way; instead of typical from zero to hero you get this awkward from zero to really, really overpowered zero. Here you are an observer following the great deeds of potatoes, children, cats and lesbians.

That being said it doesn't even matter because they set up a really strong lore backbone for this universe with GW1 and the novels, so pretty much everything you encounter in GW2 will have some kind of backstory.

#13 Datenshi92

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 06:36 PM

To me personally I think one of the main reasons why it didn't clicked was because it doesn't provide you a good enough story or lore to keep going. As it stands, its one of the game's weakest points - it feels "amateurish" and its basically riding on the great lore of GW1 to even get anywhere. But the problem here is that it all comes crashing down if you never even played the first game to start with. Not only that, its not as rich or interesting as the world of Tolkien - that most people probably know a thing or two.

GW2 doesn't start bad, but as you keep going down the line you will come to understand that it was rushed towards release. The Personal Story doesn't end in any form of cliff-hanger or even hints at a continuation, it just abruptly ends like the world ceased to exist from a certain point. Thing is, GW2 is meant to be a continuous story but if we're going to sell a story by parts, we should at least end the previous one with an interesting twist or ending, which they fail horribly at. Zhaitan was one of the most terribly executed and anti-climatic end-boss fights I've ever witnessed in an MMO - not to mention I completely disagree with the approach the devs took on how to defeat a being like a Elder Dragon.

The story gets taken away from your feet, the focus pans away from you and starts pointing at the world in general or other NPCs. Almost everything is surrounded by cliché and you can't help but get carried away by the wave, whether you like it or not. Sometimes I find myself doing stuff in GW2, specially related to the story, and I just ask "Why am I even doing this? Why do I bother?", while in LOTRO that has never really happened to me - I have a reason to do the things I do.

GW2 just doesn't have that appeal. It feels like a gigantic book of random occurrences and we're some by-stander that happens to do and change a few things but we still feel rather insignificant. This isn't our story, like we were told, its the story the devs are trying to tell and we're just some "special mention" in the cast and credits.

Edited by Datenshi92, 30 June 2014 - 07:36 PM.


#14 EphraimGlass

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 08:56 PM

View PostDatenshi92, on 30 June 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

GW2 just doesn't have that appeal. It feels like a gigantic book of random occurrences and we're some by-stander that happens to do and change a few things but we still feel rather insignificant. This isn't our story, like we were told, its the story the devs are trying to tell and we're just some "special mention" in the cast and credits.

Am I right, then, that what you're saying is that we're the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern to ANet's Hamlet?

#15 dakka dakka

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:23 PM

View PostEphraimGlass, on 30 June 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

Am I right, then, that what you're saying is that we're the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern to ANet's Hamlet?

Not quite. We aren't side characters like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. We are the catalyst, the factor that sets the "main" characters in motion.

R and G were largely unimportant to Hamlet whereas without our character Destinies Edge wouldn't have been able to reunite and Trehearne wouldn't have found his courage. Just like in life, there is no "main" or side" characters. All players and NPC's play an important role in furthering the story of the world itself.

#16 Haggus

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 11:33 PM

View Postdakka dakka, on 30 June 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

Not quite. We aren't side characters like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. We are the catalyst, the factor that sets the "main" characters in motion.

R and G were largely unimportant to Hamlet whereas without our character Destinies Edge wouldn't have been able to reunite and Trehearne wouldn't have found his courage. Just like in life, there is no "main" or side" characters. All players and NPC's play an important role in furthering the story of the world itself.

Which kinda hits the nail on the head.  We just aren't that heroic.  We get it started, yes; but then we are just along for the ride.  We give a nudge here, a suggestion there.  We aren't, however, necessary.  

Compare it to Nightfall.  In that story, Abaddon doesn't get defeated without us.  Everything we do, from Istan to The RoM, is, story-wise, essential to the plot.  Hell, in Factions, even with Alliance Battles, your fighting determined whether or not you could access Luxon or Kurzick NPCs.   In GW2, the story just doesn't matter, unless you are Jones'ing for Whispers armor.    Hell, you can even skip the whole storyline, and do the Arah quest with the Fab Five, as long as you run down there.  

Game play and graphics can only carry a game so far.   If it's an MMORPG, you gotta make the "RPG" part matter some to the whole of the game.  Even the end game has to be a part.  No, you don't have to force it on us.  What you should do is at least make us WANT to do it.  It's the difference between a good writer and a bad writer; and it's the difference between a "good" game and a great game.

#17 I post stuff

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 11:59 PM

I like it better. It makes no sense when in an MMO you are supposed to be "the chosen one" except there are two million others like you.

#18 Datenshi92

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 01:13 AM

View PostI post stuff, on 30 June 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

I like it better. It makes no sense when in an MMO you are supposed to be "the chosen one" except there are two million others like you.

How much the world turns... I used to have that mindset as well, until I realized just how silly it is.

Technically speaking there's thousands of Geralts of Rivia, Shepards and silent heroes from KoA: Reckoning - do I feel like a tiny cog in those plots just because of the amount of people that play those games? No. In fact, why should that even matter? Why can't I be the chosen one in the canon story? Ins't that the point? If I want to be regular Mary after and make myself a part of the GW2 world, in a different light, then that's my choice as an RPer, but I don't want to be singled out by force from the main story just because of the excuse that there's more people playing this game... or rather, I don't want my efforts hindered by it. I don't want to get a cheap story just because the devs are afraid that someone people might feel left out - either make a game with everyone in mind or focus in treating every one of them as the "chosen one" in their own playthrough.

I consider the main story to be a separated thing from the social aspects of an MMO. An MMO, IMO, is just like a "single-player connected to the internet 24/7" and, metaphorically speaking, the other people are super-advanced AIs that serve a role somewhere in the game (the same could be said about me from their perspective). In fact, there's no better example than GW1 where there was tons of people in there but in no way they ever interfered in your story, ever. I wasn't shadowed by anyone, my efforts weren't hindered by thousands of other people and their choices and in return, they weren't shadowed by mine.

Edited by Datenshi92, 01 July 2014 - 02:40 AM.


#19 Haggus

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 02:18 AM

View PostMystika, on 29 June 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

The Lore comes from GW1, and people that played GW1 are more apt to understand the lore of GW2 better than those that did not. GW1 is still active if you want to look into that. Also, the Guild Wars novels offer a lot of insight into the lore, and explain what happened between the time of GW1 and the time of GW2. You might want to look into those also.

To paraphrase CinemaSins:  The BOOKS...DON'T...MATTER!   I loved Guild Wars.  I loved all the stuff they added after, with Queen Sansa, Gwen and Captain Thackery, and all that.   However, the game is the game.  Most people don't want to feel they have to friggin' study lore to enjoy a game.  If you are saying I have to do work to have fun, then BS to that!   For the most part, the setting of GW2 is filled out enough to create a good canvas.  While it might be neat, and it's interesting, reading the books and playing GW1 aren't needed for this game.  All that stuff is explained in the game, anyway. It's the art being painted on that canvas that's lacking a bit.  

As for being "the one",  It isn't about being the messiah in the game.  However, if you are gonna dumb down the game play, and ZerkWay being the only good option is dumbing it down, then you better have some good writing to keep the people playing.  I'm not dropping a dime into a cash shop if I think the writers shot the best of their load in three books that set up what is supposed to be the whole point.  

I do hope they are gonna dazzle us in the next few months, with some great stories and expansions.  That hope is just tempered with realistic expectations from the past few years.

#20 Krazzar

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 04:02 PM

It goes back and forth between you being "the chosen" and a nobody.  You decide the fate of the orders ("it's up to you initiate to decide the fate of the world!"), but what you choose doesn't really matter.  Lore is sparse and depends on being in the right place at the right time in the open world.  Most of all, the game relies on GW1 lore to make sense of areas, pretty much everything is a reference to something else in GW1.

#21 MCBiohazard

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 05:48 PM

View PostDatenshi92, on 01 July 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

How much the world turns... I used to have that mindset as well, until I realized just how silly it is.

Technically speaking there's thousands of Geralts of Rivia, Shepards and silent heroes from KoA: Reckoning - do I feel like a tiny cog in those plots just because of the amount of people that play those games? No. In fact, why should that even matter? Why can't I be the chosen one in the canon story? Ins't that the point? If I want to be regular Mary after and make myself a part of the GW2 world, in a different light, then that's my choice as an RPer, but I don't want to be singled out by force from the main story just because of the excuse that there's more people playing this game... or rather, I don't want my efforts hindered by it. I don't want to get a cheap story just because the devs are afraid that someone people might feel left out - either make a game with everyone in mind or focus in treating every one of them as the "chosen one" in their own playthrough.

I consider the main story to be a separated thing from the social aspects of an MMO. An MMO, IMO, is just like a "single-player connected to the internet 24/7" and, metaphorically speaking, the other people are super-advanced AIs that serve a role somewhere in the game (the same could be said about me from their perspective). In fact, there's no better example than GW1 where there was tons of people in there but in no way they ever interfered in your story, ever. I wasn't shadowed by anyone, my efforts weren't hindered by thousands of other people and their choices and in return, they weren't shadowed by mine.

Wow, haha, I think we were debating back and forth on this very exact issue in a different thread a month or two ago. That's it, really. The PS is your single player campaign. If you're not the main character in your own story, what's the point? That's why Trahearne derailed the whole thing. He steals your thunder in the most bush league roleplaying narrative no-no way ever. No GM NPC should ever make the player feel unimportant. They can be vastly more powerful or more influential in the bigger scheme of things, but in the end, their purpose in the narrative should be to serve you, not the other way around. To take the Tolkien example, Gandalf the wizard is an all powerful being and Aragorn the ranger is a king but they still don't overshadow the real protagonist of the journey, this dumpy little 4 foot guy with hairy feet and his group of likewise tiny and insignificant friends who turn out to be important after all. It's their story, Gandalf and Aragorn are the side characters for good reason. Like the classic bad Gary Stu, Trahearne takes your mentor's death for himself, your epic quest for himself and the direct leadership that you could have assumed in the fight against the elder dragons all for himself. And everybody in the game loves him for no qualified reason. The dialogue in the aftermath of the Battle of Claw Island where everyone says he made it happen made me want to punch his green ♥♥♥♥plant face over and over. Who took down that giant beastie? It wasn't him. All the decisions you made in the first half of the story get subsumed into his grand adventure when they were your friends you helped, your enemies you fought and your tough choices to make, not his, but he still takes the credit. Why the heck do you have to visit the Mother Tree if you're not sylvari yourself? What's that NPC got to do with you if you're human, Asuran, Norn or Charr? She ain't your mom, why do you need to be told to go fight the dragon when you should have perfectly good reasons of your own to go? Without personal motivation, you're not even a hero in the GW1 sense anymore, you're literally a straight up henchman since you stop having your own story after Trahearne comes in. In GW1, the Ascalonian heroes are all henchmen. As they should be. They've had their adventures already, they're here to help you out this time in Factions and in Nightfall. The heroes in Nightfall and EotN have their own tales but they also rally behind you. As they should. It feels bad to be a henchman in your own adventure before it's over, mang.

The Destiny's Edge dungeon narrative falls flat not because there's a SI in the way though. It's just that you're as others have said in this thread, Rosencrantz and Guildstern in that particular story. You don't actually bring them back together yourself, you just watch them bicker and argue it out until they finally get along by themselves. I mean, I guess it's fine if they were likeable but man, all of them have serious issues and are not really hero-like at all as depicted.

Despite all its faults, LS1 was actually a slight improvement in that it made you a side character but at least sometimes the narrative tried to include you as an active participant. The B Iconics are less sociopathic and some of the events are clearly being driven by you as a catalyst to mobilize the whole world you know into action. That's the part of the LS that worked. It's just that without the solid foundation of your personal story, you have no reason to care about that world. It pretty much left you behind when Trahearne took your quest to beat a big dragon thing for himself.

We'll see if LS2 can repair some of that damage. If it actually tries to be a continuation of the personal story where you become the main character again, and if they can keep the NPCs from overshadowing you again this time, it might turn out better.

Edited by MCBiohazard, 01 July 2014 - 06:13 PM.


#22 Haggus

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:42 PM

View PostMCBiohazard, on 01 July 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

Wow, haha, I think we were debating back and forth on this very exact issue in a different thread a month or two ago. That's it, really. The PS is your single player campaign. If you're not the main character in your own story, what's the point? That's why Trahearne derailed the whole thing. He steals your thunder in the most bush league roleplaying narrative no-no way ever. No GM NPC should ever make the player feel unimportant....

The whole post is it.  I might add, this is a part of lazy writing.  It's hard to design an MMO where each person playing is the focus of the story, whether they are a soldier or a leader.  It's easier to do what they did with Trahearn: write a POV story about a main character other than yourself.  It's like they started writing well, then around level 50 just wrote a story they wanted to tell, and threw you in it as the observer.  Not just lazy, it's freaking insulting to the player.  Where it's dangerous to longevity is, you take the story away, and the game is just another MMO.  To level, you craft/grind/explore(part of which is grind, thanks to hearts).  The LS barely gives you more standing compared to the new Fab Five.  It's just lazy; and considering what they did with GW, they can do so much better.

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 05:02 PM

No, the real reason is that MMO players want to feel empowered by the story, they simply don't care about realism. This applies to gamers in general but especially to the MMORPG scene where everything is a bit twisted, perverted and exaggerated. That's why the heroic cucumber is universally hated.

MMOs behave like any other game; they are released to a lot of hype only to be forgotten in a few months time by everyone but the die hard fans and nostalgiamongers.

"Look at this vintage gem from 6 months ago I found lost among my 2TB of anime and porn!"

The main difference is that MMO players are much more invested, as such these games face much greater scrutiny.

In the end MMORPGs are just reskins of one another with a few new gimmicks added in, like flying, building ships or dodging.

I think that by trying to make GW2 very casual-friendly (easy content, over-abundance of RNG), A-Net inadvertedly made it very punishing and unrewarding to the crowd that's more on the hardcore side (typical MMO gamer). This is where the feeling of disconnect comes from.

Edited by I post stuff, 02 July 2014 - 05:09 PM.


#24 MCBiohazard

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 03:12 AM

View PostI post stuff, on 02 July 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

No, the real reason is that MMO players want to feel empowered by the story, they simply don't care about realism. This applies to gamers in general but especially to the MMORPG scene where everything is a bit twisted, perverted and exaggerated. That's why the heroic cucumber is universally hated.

Your reason is basically mine in a different coat of paint. I'm coming at it from a storytelling point of view combined with tabletop gaming experience. The audience needs a point of reference in which they can relate to the setting. In a traditional written hero narrative, that tends to be an everyman archetype, somebody they can buy as being like themselves and so they can get invested in what that character experiences because it feels like they could be experiencing it the same way if they were in that guy's shoes. The escapism comes from feeling like they could be in the setting through that guy they identify with. In a roleplaying game, they already are immersed in the setting so the story has to revolve around them otherwise it's too much like real life where some jackhole rich guy does cool stuff and you don't give a crap because you're too busy doing scutwork just to eat on a regular basis. The escapism needs to be empowerment themed because they're experiencing the setting directly instead of being channeled through an everyman. Artificially inserting a character next to you who does everything awesome for you that you could have been doing yourself defeats the purpose of the fantasy. Trahearne is disliked because of that.

Edited by MCBiohazard, 03 July 2014 - 03:16 AM.


#25 I post stuff

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 09:07 AM

Well to be fair in this story you aren't exactly a filthy peasant but second in command of The Lettuce Warriors or whatever that thing is called. I can see how and why this is not enough for some people.

That being said I take all complaints with a grain of salt; for every player that complains for a good reason there are 20 that complain because it's cool.

Edited by I post stuff, 03 July 2014 - 09:13 AM.


#26 MCBiohazard

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 01:10 PM

I'd like to think that my complaint has some merit but hey, what do I really know besides my opinion, right? I thought the Personal Story was a cool idea when I first played and I enjoyed it a lot right up to Claw Island. Hanging out in my racial city was fun, even each member of Destiny's Edge was pretty okay when they weren't next to each other arguing like children. I rolled an alt for each race just so I could see what their personal stories were like in each area. When they consolidated the plotline into the three orders, it still was fun because you at least had the racial differences in plotline leading up to your joining an order and the plotlines and mentors for the orders themselves still made you feel like you were making your way up in the world and making real allies for yourself. Then you go to Claw Island and meet this guy, who if you're not a sylvari you don't even know who the hell he is, and he immediately negates your reason for even being there.

You were there to warn the Lionguard, he's already there warning the Lionguard. You thought you were starting to get to know your orders mentor very well, this guy already knows Tybalt and Forgal and Sieran and they had fun times way before you ever came along and did anything. Stuff happens, your new fast friend and mentor dies in front of your eyes and then this lettucehead starts to follow along while you're trying to pick up the pieces. It's subtle at first, he builds you up saying that your leadership was what saved everyone at Claw Island. Then he asks you to meet his mom and it turns out, he's the one with the epic destiny, not you. Then at every single step after that, whenever you do something, people start praising him instead of you. Battle of Claw Island, this one Priory conversation goes something like blah blah chances of this alliance working are low, then out of nowhere, the other guy in the conversation is like "If that 1000 in 1 chance is Trahearne, I'm taking it." WTF, man.You dig him out of the mess in Timberlake Falls before everyone starts drinking the kool aid for real, and afterwards, they praise him again because he has the leadership to guide us to Orr. He's the decider. He'll take us to war in the wasteland. To Arah and victory.

There's one branch in the storyline right after that which is even more of an insult to the player. The branch you get when you say you fear disgrace was ridiculous. This mesmer sets you up for the fall. Not because you're an important person in the alliance and it would be severely set back without you, but because you're Trahearne's right hand lackey and taking you out would make it easier for Zhaitan to get to him. Zhaitan apparently doesn't even consider you as a prime target, just an obstacle to the real threat. That is annoying.

At least to me anyways.

Edited by MCBiohazard, 03 July 2014 - 01:11 PM.


#27 ilr

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 05:58 PM

It's because almost none of the interesting Stories or Lore ever happened in the center of Tyria
The Searing Cauldron / Foundry of Failed Creations stuff was about as interesting as it got.

OP should keep checking back every few years and hopefully by then they'll have finally brought back "Palawa & Friends"

Edited by ilr, 04 July 2014 - 05:59 PM.


#28 RagiNagi

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 10:26 PM

too many sheets of answers, many ideas, not sure i follow them all. However, I think the lore is enough as it is, If you want to know more, there are always npc's willing to tell you stuff, as well as the dungeons, your personal story and living story. I mean that the lore is there, you just have to look for it yourself.

Also, remember, when gw1 made those untold stories expansion like the "The Tengu Accords" or such. There you could really learn more about stuff that has happened and about the characters that have been surrounding you since the day one. All that talk about gw2 was just jumping to release the game and the lore is not there, could be true, but it is not finished jet. I bet that there are things to come and stuff to be explained.

And besides, this sequel of the game is made around you, you are the center of the story, it has been possitioned like this since the announcement of gw2. The game is nice even without concentrating on the lore, because the world is so rich with stuff like hidden caves, crevasses, jumping puzzles, mini-cities (Skrittstown). This allows you to actually leave some room for immagination thinking - mm.. why is this here, or who made this. And then you stay there for a while longer and some NPC comes looking for mushrooms and such, or you star an event chain of some sort.

It is more about current experience, rather than what has happened before. Nonetheless, game is quite gripping even though most of the events don't affect each other.

RagiNagi

Edited by RagiNagi, 04 July 2014 - 10:27 PM.


#29 Haggus

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 05:35 PM

http://www.reddit.co...hearne/.  Pretty much it, as far as the main storyline is concerned.

Edited by Haggus, 05 July 2014 - 05:36 PM.


#30 I post stuff

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 10:49 PM

Nothing GW1 had to offer in its storyline could beat the battle with Zhaitan. That stuff is just glorious.




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