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Is GW2 dead now or is it just the forums?


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#151 Minion

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 06:02 PM

View PostVeji, on 17 September 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

MMOs don't die, they just drift off into obscurity.  lol

The moment MMOs stop receiving regular updates and skill balances is when they are confirmed dead. Don't fool yourself. Hence: Guild Wars is dead.

#152 I post stuff

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 07:48 PM

View PostMinion, on 24 November 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

The moment MMOs stop receiving regular updates and skill balances is when they are confirmed dead. Don't fool yourself. Hence: Guild Wars is dead.
No.

The game is not dead until all the servers go down.

GW proves it; you can still find fairly impressive clusters of people in certain places ever after years of no updates.

View Postraspberry jam, on 24 November 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Well the thing is. Either you have a game where you feel like you achieved nothing. Or you have a game where you feel like you achieve stuff, but then you also get people that put value into achieving stuff.

"Look at me, noobs, I am the only one here with the Obsidian Phallic Reaver!"

This phrase used to work better in the orinal.

Edited by I post stuff, 24 November 2014 - 07:55 PM.


#153 raspberry jam

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:52 AM

View PostI post stuff, on 24 November 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

"Look at me, noobs, I am the only one here with the Obsidian Phallic Reaver!"

This phrase used to work better in the orinal.
:D hehe

Well, the thing was though, after the first year or so, having elite or even FoW armor as well as some rare-skinned item was so common that you'd basically never be the only one (unless you really had that +30 vamp crystalline or whatever, but yeah). Of course, that didn't stop people from bragging, but I never ever saw a player get kicked or pushed away or whatever for not having the right armor skin. On the other hand, I did see a lot of people being kicked (and I kicked a lot of people myself) from teams for not having the right build (or, worse, not wanting to show the build), or just being obviously stupid/unskilled. That, just like the "elitism" that was found in HA, was just self-preservation: players didn't want to waste time losing because of some noob. In GW2, that's not a problem since you don't have to engage yourself to play the game, but in GW1 you'd actually have to make an effort of playing as a team. If someone wasn't up for that, you'd want to know before you went in.

Heh. I think that that is the entire reason for the "elitism" of GW1. The same things that made it good - focus on team play, and instancing the entire world - also made it appear elitist to some. Funny how something can have a seemingly completely unrelated side effect.

#154 El Duderino

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Posted Today, 01:27 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 25 November 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Heh. I think that that is the entire reason for the "elitism" of GW1. The same things that made it good - focus on team play, and instancing the entire world - also made it appear elitist to some. Funny how something can have a seemingly completely unrelated side effect.

Which is why I dislike the term "elitism," it makes developers want to make games without elitism - which dumbs down content, depth and complexity. Elitism isn't a bad thing in a game; however, it can be difficult for players to find players of similar skill level or when players of vastly different skill levels play each other. That can create the bad reactions that are associated with elitism. Basically, if there is a mechanic to keep people from getting kicked from teams or blown out from competitive scenarios, elitism's problems become near null.

#155 Haggus

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Posted Today, 03:55 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 25 November 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

:D hehe


Heh. I think that that is the entire reason for the "elitism" of GW1. The same things that made it good - focus on team play, and instancing the entire world - also made it appear elitist to some. Funny how something can have a seemingly completely unrelated side effect.
That's the stuff that made it a great e-sport-type game, especially in GvG.  Even when certain skill sets became meta, it was the team with the best cohesion and use of those skills that won.   I would take any one of those GvG tournaments over the stuff offered in PvP in GW2.  

On the PvE side, the HM elite quests and missions were great, as well.  How many times did people kill themselves trying to do Mallyx?  The end stories of the current game pale in comparison.  The dungeons of GW2 can't hold a candle to those in the original game.  The saddest thing is, in those, they can't fall back on it being persistent world issues.  

As for elitism, in any competitive game, you have to earn your stripes to play with anyone in the harder parts of the game.  Despite what Mommy and Daddy told you, you are not just as special as everyone else.  Those with more skill and experience than you in something are better than you in that thing.  deal with it.  In GW, that was shown in its PvP and elite Missions(Mallyx et al). If you wanted to go casual, fine.  Just don't get pissed when someone wants to see your build.  Your build and weapons choices showed what you knew about your class, and what you knew about synergy.  I wouldn't turn someone away for not having the flavor of the month on their bar.  If they had stuff that looked like they picked the skills at random, or took no account of their energy pool or cast times, I'd give them suggestions.  Most people took those suggestions.  Some were a-holes, and were kicked.  Those are usually the ones who turn around and cry about how "elitist" the game was.  It's not elitism.  It's not wanting to wipe because you decided to run all healing on your monk bar and carry 3 15E skills!

Edited by Haggus, Today, 04:08 AM.


#156 jayson

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Posted Today, 08:13 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 25 November 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

:D hehe

Well, the thing was though, after the first year or so, having elite or even FoW armor as well as some rare-skinned item was so common that you'd basically never be the only one (unless you really had that +30 vamp crystalline or whatever, but yeah). Of course, that didn't stop people from bragging, but I never ever saw a player get kicked or pushed away or whatever for not having the right armor skin. On the other hand, I did see a lot of people being kicked (and I kicked a lot of people myself) from teams for not having the right build (or, worse, not wanting to show the build), or just being obviously stupid/unskilled. That, just like the "elitism" that was found in HA, was just self-preservation: players didn't want to waste time losing because of some noob. In GW2, that's not a problem since you don't have to engage yourself to play the game, but in GW1 you'd actually have to make an effort of playing as a team. If someone wasn't up for that, you'd want to know before you went in.

Heh. I think that that is the entire reason for the "elitism" of GW1. The same things that made it good - focus on team play, and instancing the entire world - also made it appear elitist to some. Funny how something can have a seemingly completely unrelated side effect.

I always hated the word "elite" when used in any context regarding GW as it didn't really apply. Words like "dedicated" or "intensity" were usually more appropriate (but never used) and being "elite" came off as not having an actual reason to group with a person in GW. It would be like saying "Sorry, you're not wearing FoW armor so you can't join." and as you've stated, that was never the case. Absolutely agree with kicking anti social people who won't ping their build or people who do and had horrendously bad bars for HM. For NM? I let a lot slide.

Also I think El Duderino is correct as to one of the reasons why GW2 became the product it did. Dumb it down so there's no bad builds and make every build do the same thing with the only real difference being the cosmetic implementation and everyone is happy...  in theory anyway.

Edited by jayson, Today, 08:14 AM.


#157 raspberry jam

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Posted Today, 09:27 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 28 November 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

Which is why I dislike the term "elitism," it makes developers want to make games without elitism - which dumbs down content, depth and complexity. Elitism isn't a bad thing in a game; however, it can be difficult for players to find players of similar skill level or when players of vastly different skill levels play each other. That can create the bad reactions that are associated with elitism. Basically, if there is a mechanic to keep people from getting kicked from teams or blown out from competitive scenarios, elitism's problems become near null.
Very true - however, not allowing people to filter their teams bring whole new sets of problems with it. Regardless how that filter is implemented, vote kick, leader kick, automatic matching, or no filter at all, there's always someone who will feel treated unfairly, and there will always be some treatment that actually is unfair. I think that GW1's model of having leader kick in a persistent (and co-existent) lobby was nearly perfect: the leader retained some control of the team he was setting up, and the team members could still vote her out, if needed, by simply leaving the team and forming a new one.

Eh, maybe that's not what you meant, haha.

View PostHaggus, on 28 November 2014 - 03:55 AM, said:

That's the stuff that made it a great e-sport-type game, especially in GvG.  Even when certain skill sets became meta, it was the team with the best cohesion and use of those skills that won.   I would take any one of those GvG tournaments over the stuff offered in PvP in GW2.  

On the PvE side, the HM elite quests and missions were great, as well.  How many times did people kill themselves trying to do Mallyx?  The end stories of the current game pale in comparison.  The dungeons of GW2 can't hold a candle to those in the original game.  The saddest thing is, in those, they can't fall back on it being persistent world issues.  

As for elitism, in any competitive game, you have to earn your stripes to play with anyone in the harder parts of the game.  Despite what Mommy and Daddy told you, you are not just as special as everyone else.  Those with more skill and experience than you in something are better than you in that thing.  deal with it.  In GW, that was shown in its PvP and elite Missions(Mallyx et al). If you wanted to go casual, fine.  Just don't get pissed when someone wants to see your build.  Your build and weapons choices showed what you knew about your class, and what you knew about synergy.  I wouldn't turn someone away for not having the flavor of the month on their bar.  If they had stuff that looked like they picked the skills at random, or took no account of their energy pool or cast times, I'd give them suggestions.  Most people took those suggestions.  Some were a-holes, and were kicked.  Those are usually the ones who turn around and cry about how "elitist" the game was.  It's not elitism.  It's not wanting to wipe because you decided to run all healing on your monk bar and carry 3 15E skills!
...or for that matter, monks who thought it would be a good idea to play as an MM "because I am secondary necro", or the warrior that thinks that hey, warriors can use three different types of weapon, so let's cram them all into the same build. Preferably while filling none of the attribute reqs of the actual weapons that he used. Yeah sorry, that won't fly and if that's elitism then I'm sorry but in that case I'll be an elitist.

On the other hand you had the ubiquitous r0 elementalist that turns up in tombs and tries to join your team (that was announced as r9+), insisting that he "can play anything" and that you should "give him a chance". Sure, turning down a guy like that, that just wanted to play and actually might have had a decent build, sometimes felt like elitism. But as El Duderino said, it's not always bad. The team was intended to get to HoH and hold it for some time, not just play around a bit on the first maps, and while he would probably enjoy getting r2 for free on his first visit to real PvP, he'd probably also weigh down the team, making them fail a lot more. It might be elitism, but not unfair such.

View Postjayson, on 28 November 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

I always hated the word "elite" when used in any context regarding GW as it didn't really apply. Words like "dedicated" or "intensity" were usually more appropriate (but never used) and being "elite" came off as not having an actual reason to group with a person in GW. It would be like saying "Sorry, you're not wearing FoW armor so you can't join." and as you've stated, that was never the case. Absolutely agree with kicking anti social people who won't ping their build or people who do and had horrendously bad bars for HM. For NM? I let a lot slide.

Also I think El Duderino is correct as to one of the reasons why GW2 became the product it did. Dumb it down so there's no bad builds and make every build do the same thing with the only real difference being the cosmetic implementation and everyone is happy...  in theory anyway.
Yep, NM was the playground, HM was more serious. Or sometimes playground too, depending on what area we're talking about.

You mention something interesting. I think that you are right that that was the theory, and as we all know, the practice didn't match the theory this time... Well, some people are happy, the ones that liked the original often aren't. So what's the problem? It's the same thing that I harped on so much during the GW1 days, and that so few agreed on back then because back then, it was sort of annoying... If every build is good, there is nothing good about a good build. There needs to be bad builds in order to be good builds. You need to be able to fail in order to succeed. In GW2, you succeed at everything. The only exception is that sometimes, you need to go through the motions of unlocking mechanics or statistics that are throttled by some wholly abstract mechanism ("levels" or "skills" or "fractal levels" etc). If you ever fail, you do so in the very end, because you were unskilled - in a game where you have been taught to just wait for the next level to improve.
Well, they did aim to make a "real" MMO this time. :zip:

#158 Phineas Poe

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Posted Today, 01:59 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 17 November 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

You could play perfect and yet die because the monk stupidly aggroed some bad guy and had to run away instead of staying to heal you. In that case you could lower your own performance to preempt that bad guy so that the monk wouldn't be targeted. Or maybe the team had to split up and act in two different locations, and one sub-team had some difficulty so your team had to send one more guy over to the other side. Or maybe the entire team. And you'd have to decide, on the spot, what to do.

What you're talking about here has existed in Guild Wars 2.

Marionette worked precisely in this fashion. My guild used to coordinate our own maps throughout the LS1 regularly completing these kills. And it would often require shifting our best players around the map because our weaker ones couldn't handle it on their own. I was constantly jumping around the map assisting where it was needed most; we even had a dedicated group of players that would drop what they were doing in one row to jump in and cut the chain for another. They would wait around precisely for this reason.

You can play perfectly at Wurm and fail because of one person. One person can ruin an entire Wurm kill. It's been done. Several times. All it takes is one guy standing on the wrong side during the second phase to steer the boss away from the wall. It may just be a matter of positioning, but if you've ever been responsible for coordinating and managing these types of kills, you know how important it is that everyone works as a team, and to be on Teamspeak and be willing to listen. It's not about just mindlessly hacking away at it.

Tequatl may be on farm status for most organized guilds these days, but I assure you that a year ago that was hardly the case. Coordinating defense groups, teaching players how to knock mobs away from batteries, using turret groups right, and having guardians and elementalists rotating their projectile reflects ... it was all a lot of work.

I'm not saying you're in this crowd, because I know I've talked to you about raid boss content in the past, but there are a contingent of players on this forum that regularly espouse that Guild Wars 2 does not have challenging raid content in this game ... and that simply isn't true. It's just false.

Yes, over a year later Tequatl and Wurm are, I guess, now easy as ♥♥♥♥. Attuned and Ethereal Guardians grouped up together Saturday to do a combined Wurm kill. We barely talked during preparation. Dragon Age Inquisition was the topic at hand up to the final seconds before the Wurm spawned. And despite a few mistakes at Cobalt, we got a clean kill. And yes, you guys can organize your own Tequatl kills in the LFG tool because everyone has been seeing the top 10% players in the game bulldozing Tequatl for the past 14 months and finally learned something.

But there was a time and a place when that content demanded teamplay, organization, and communication.

Edit: And just to kind of pull this all back to the topic at large, if this is why people are quitting, they need to join the right kind of guild and start participating in this content.

Edited by Phineas Poe, Today, 03:37 PM.


#159 Soki

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Posted Today, 02:30 PM

It has significantly less players than I think ANet projected it would after the second 'season' of Living Story started.
Sure hope the expansion makes the game playable and interesting again.

#160 Soki

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Posted Today, 06:02 PM

View PostSoki, on 28 November 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

It has significantly less players than I think ANet projected it would after the second 'season' of Living Story started.
Sure hope the expansion makes the game playable and interesting again.
These forums really are dead. The threads I've responded to have had 0 replies for a solid 4 hours.

#161 Shayne Hawke

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Posted Today, 06:58 PM

View PostPhineas Poe, on 28 November 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

You can play perfectly at Wurm and fail because of one person. One person can ruin an entire Wurm kill. It's been done. Several times. All it takes is one guy standing on the wrong side during the second phase to steer the boss away from the wall. It may just be a matter of positioning, but if you've ever been responsible for coordinating and managing these types of kills, you know how important it is that everyone works as a team, and to be on Teamspeak and be willing to listen. It's not about just mindlessly hacking away at it.

It's not hard because the content is hard to execute on or because the different stages are hard to beat.  It's hard because the people you are playing with are stupid.  Hence why...

Quote

Yes, over a year later Tequatl and Wurm are, I guess, now easy as ♥♥♥♥. Attuned and Ethereal Guardians grouped up together Saturday to do a combined Wurm kill. We barely talked during preparation. Dragon Age Inquisition was the topic at hand up to the final seconds before the Wurm spawned. And despite a few mistakes at Cobalt, we got a clean kill. And yes, you guys can organize your own Tequatl kills in the LFG tool because everyone has been seeing the top 10% players in the game bulldozing Tequatl for the past 14 months and finally learned something.

But there was a time and a place when that content demanded teamplay, organization, and communication.

All that's changed is that enough decent players took the method they used to complete this content and beat it into and shouted it at every noob that came their way.  Wurm and Tequatl get taken down by what are effectively bands of monkeys, only having learned what to do by watching the monkeys before them do it, and it's so easy that any new monkey can walk in and do what all the other monkeys are doing and win.  They're all still stupid, as would be evident by the introduction of any new content of the same style as this.  It would spark the same outcome of everyone tripping over themselves for the first few days, some smart people figuring out how to get things done, lots of noob harassment to make the winning strategies clear to everyone, and then the takeover and farming of the content by monkeys who only need to be smart enough to watch and imitate others.

The content is still just as hard or easy as it was by its latest revision because of how static it is, but everyone can do it now using no more intelligence than a monkey.  That's because the content isn't actually hard, and the people element that makes it feel that way has been dealt with.




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