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Emphasizing non-DPS roles in GW2


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#1 Arkham Creed

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 09:37 PM

So I decided to set myself a challenge here, and put my money where my mouth is and “fix” the GW2 roles/combat problem in a way that doesn’t bring back the trinity or deemphasize Arena Net’s goals for the game AND that works within the apparent technology limitation of the “25 stack cap.” Then I realized I already did; but the official suggestion forums have been shut down so I need to retype the idea instead of copy/past a link. Oh well, here goes…I’ve “fixed it”, and all it requires is changes to two stats (and related skills), one boss only boon, and add one new boon, and one new condition. That’s it. GW2 combat fixed. I’ll explain.

Defiant!
Spoiler


Healing power/regeneration
Spoiler


Condition Damage/conditions
Spoiler


The new stuff; Immunity and Corruption.
Spoiler

Edited by Arkham Creed, 28 January 2015 - 09:55 PM.

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#2 Datenshi92

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:32 PM

Its true that as long as the game mechanic's remain as they are, there's not much we can do to "force" people to vary from their optimal builds. You don't even have to change a cent of how classes work, just make it so that bosses and mobs in general adapt to different situations, much like players would. Some extra suggestions of mine would be to give bosses (veterans, champions, dungeon bosses) an ability that drains everyone's endurance within their radius. As you are probably aware of, dodging is the biggest damage mitigation in this game so if you take away that, you will have to force people to come up with alternative ways to survive. This will also make toughness, vitality, healing and regen abilities much more useful and desired. You could also make it so that some bosses have an exceptional amount of toughness and the only way to bring them down is through condition damage.

These are just some ideas.
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#3 Sieg234

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 04:34 PM

The problem with "Forcing people to come up with alternative ways to survive" is that it can, in essence, force tankyness-driven "Gear Check" encounters, where either people have x amount of tankiness or they don't. I think that you take things in the right direction, Arkham, but I would change things slightly differently. I think the inherent problem is that other gear stats don't scale with anything in a meaninful manner. The game is about active movement and skill usage, and passive defences are, by game design, meant to be weak. The defensive stats should link with active defence.


1) Link Healing Power with Boon Duration

Spoiler


2) Link Toughness with CC duration

Spoiler


3) Link Vitality with CC Reduction on self

Spoiler


4) Condi Damage buffs:

Spoiler

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#4 Miragee

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Posted 15 August 2015 - 02:47 PM

Its true that as long as the game mechanic's remain as they are, there's not much we can do to "force" people to vary from their optimal builds. You don't even have to change a cent of how classes work, just make it so that bosses and mobs in general adapt to different situations, much like players would. Some extra suggestions of mine would be to give bosses (veterans, champions, dungeon bosses) an ability that drains everyone's endurance within their radius. As you are probably aware of, dodging is the biggest damage mitigation in this game so if you take away that, you will have to force people to come up with alternative ways to survive. This will also make toughness, vitality, healing and regen abilities much more useful and desired. You could also make it so that some bosses have an exceptional amount of toughness and the only way to bring them down is through condition damage.

These are just some ideas.


There are multiple problems to your suggestions:

1. Melees being at a disadvantage compared to range characters.

2. Damage mitigation through toughness is by far not high enough to help you live through some boss attacks or even gold/silver attacks. Even with ultra defensive setups, attacks from silvers can hit you for up to over half your life. The difference of having a lot of toughness and having almost no toughness is not big enough in PvE. However, if you change that than it is going to be a problem in PvP because people can already be really tanky over there. So if you increased the effectiveness of toughness you would also have to increase the damage output by players.

3. Healing and CC will still be as weak as ever with this change.

It's really not that simple and each change throws in other problems. This whole thing can't be solved by just changing one parameter. While I agree that the dodge roll is one of the problems in the current system, doing a change here alone isn't going to help. You have to adress the other problems as well, which are encounter design, movement/attacking, effectiveness of CC/support among others.
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#5 raspberry jam

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 09:25 PM

Obviously a prerequisite to emphasizing non-DPS roles would be to make sure that they would be worthwhile. GW2's entire problem with combat is that there is no point in having non-DPS roles. Since everyone is healing themselves, there is no reason for anyone to do anything but damage (and self-heal).

(Now when I said "obviously", I really mean that literally. It is obivous to anyone who knows anything about GW2's mechanics. You might choose to not see it, but that doesn't make it less obvious.)

Look at GW1, or any classic-trinity game: what creates other roles is necessity. If WoW allowed you to skip the healer and put in one more DPS, that would happen. If it also allowed you to skip the tank and put in yet another DPS, that would also happen. And that is exactly what has happened in GW2.
There is no necessity of any other role, so other roles doesn't exist, since they would slow down the team.

The only way to "fix" GW2's combat is to make sure teams of all-DPS characters (or rather, all-nonspecialized characters) fail completing content. And then make it possible to specialize characters for healing, cc and DPS (to make up for the lost slot DPS), and possibly for other roles. When I say "specialize" I mean to the extent that these characters would be very poor at anything but their main job.

That would imply a large number of changes to the core design of the combat system, and indeed to almost everything else about the game.

Edited by raspberry jam, 16 August 2015 - 09:25 PM.

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#6 Arkham Creed

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 10:31 PM

That would imply a large number of changes to the core design of the combat system, and indeed to almost everything else about the game.

Edit: Fixed some grammar issues.


I'm not entirely sure that is true. I believe a lot of progress can be made with a simple change to encounter design and enemy AI, both being things coming with Heart of Thorns. Now I won't say that the expac is going to fix the game, but it is a step in the right direction. For example one of the reasons why we don't bother with non-DPS roles is because it is currently far, far too easy to mitigate damage ourselves via our self-heals and dodging. But what happens if we take one of those away, such as the dodge? I don't mean remove dodging, re-balance endurance, or anything like that. But simply rework encounter design and dial up AI aggressiveness to the point that two back-to-back dodges simply isn't enough to avoid the majority of damage like it is now. After all no mount of player skill, learning the content, stacking on a boss, optimizing power, or tweaking a build is suddenly going to give you a third dodge.

Even means of accelerating endurance regen like the vigor boon and traits wouldn't counter that, just soften the blow. If it, through nothing more than adjusting enemy placement, retooling AI, and adding a few new skill types (such as boon striping) to AI controlled enemies, it becomes literally impossible to dodge the same percentage of incoming damage we currently can, then the entire meta shifts and non-DPS roles become much more valuable. Especially since the demand for prolonged vigor/stability/protection up-time would push players into boon-duration stats, traits, and consumables.

I go back on my original idea here; "fixing" Guild Wars 2 does not require any kind of massive overhaul to systems or stats or mechanics or balance; it just requires better enemy AI and Arena Net to get a bit smarter and more creative with how they design creatures and events. The systems are there, the balance is there, the tools are there, the roles are there, we just don't have a reason to use them because of the way current enemies behave and the way encounters are put together.

Edited by Arkham Creed, 17 August 2015 - 02:34 AM.

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#7 Miragee

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 07:03 AM

The only way to "fix" GW2's combat is to make sure teams of all-DPS characters (or rather, all-nonspecialized characters) fail completing content. And then make it possible to specialize characters for healing, cc and DPS (to make up for the lost slot DPS), and possibly for other roles. When I say "specialize" I mean to the extent that these characters would be very poor at anything but their main job.

That would imply a large number of changes to the core design of the combat system, and indeed to almost everything else about the game.


That is what they are planning for HoT though. Not that I believe that they can realise that but according to Colin on stream they are planning on healing and other roles to become necessary for certain areas in HoT to complete. He also said that that always has been the plan for GW2 from the very beginning though. Colin is such a clown.
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#8 Arkham Creed

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 10:17 PM

He also said that that always has been the plan for GW2 from the very beginning though. Colin is such a clown.


It was, clearly. Here check it out.

http://gw2101.gtm.gu.../healing-death/

Nowhere in that article does it say roles won't exist or that they won't be necessary. That is just some, to put it bluntly, bullshit that the community came up with to justify how they were playing. That article specifically calls out the roles in GW2 and explains how they work. The point wasn't that you didn't need roles or that there were no roles; the point was that you wouldn't find yourself sitting around waiting for specific classes or builds; and instead could just get together with your friends and any party comp you want and quickly tweak your builds to cover the roles you need. That is the way GW2 has always worked, until the community found themselves faced with a learn-to-play-issue and universally decided "nah, we'll exploit a noob tactic."

That was the mistake Arena Net made, and while the "blame" for the current state of the game is not fully on them it does rest with them as much as the community. Arena Net put in a FOO Strategy (look it up) to help everyone get grounded, a good thing, but they made it too strong. And seeing how over powered it was the community just latched onto it and gave up on everything else. Hell I'd say the greatest mistake Arena Net made with Guild Wars 2 was not nerfing zerker gear into the ground three months in, but that is just my opinion. And as above I'd rather they elevate content instead of nerfing players. But that doesn't change the fact; roles have always existed in GW2 and have always been viable, even required. It was just the over saturation of pure DPS builds that forms the current meta that ruined it.

Arena Net never intended the zerker meta, but they did screw up and left the door open for it. And just as you can blame them for that, you have to blame the community for so zealously walking through that door.
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