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Revenant Worries; GW2 Worries: The Good and the Bad

revenantexpansion article good bad problems worries

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#31 Dirame

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 10:31 PM

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Right, so, he's getting it for free without choice if he's aiming for 6 in that trait line.  That's even less intuitive and active for both player and opponent.  Regardless of its effectiveness, you still can't really argue it's passive nature as a permanent HP threshold bonus.  Besides, what game really plans on players taking damage so consistently that it gives them a passive bonus (with no down-sides) that reduces incoming damage as they are whittled closer to 0 HP?  The concept itself speaks for the game.

You're seriously going to hate on a trait that has very little significance in the grand scheme of things? really? /facepalm

I can agree with you talking about Grandmasters and saying "Hey these traits require little thought!", in fact I have videos about how things could really change for GW2 and how they could go about doing that, but when you start poking at a minor trait that doesn't even factor into much until you try to stack all the passives together, then, to me, you're just complaining for complaining sake.

If you think I'm attacking your personality, I apologize but come on! The minor trait is called "MINOR" for a reason.

Edited by Dirame, 23 February 2015 - 10:32 PM.


#32 Doof

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 12:02 AM

View PostI post stuff, on 23 February 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

In your picture, all I see is "passive proc" repeated over and over. It's a class based on getting hit. So?
A class based on getting hit in a game without a dedicated support class is just going to be a pain for everyone because of how it would still need to get all of its free heals and bonuses from somewhere (otherwise why would anyone play it if it just a free kill like warrior was before it got all of its buffs?)--so in GW2's case, anet decided that the class is just going to generate all of that support by itself, for only itself, via passive procs instead of relying on some other guy that has a clear, consistent purpose in combat and that can be removed temporarily if he and/or his team is bad or makes poor decisions.  This design decision is the reason why we have passive procs at all.

Passive procs aren't clear, they are instant, they aren't typically triggered by active abilities (and if they are, it's very easy to load many procs onto single abilities due to GW2's lack of skill type diversity), and yet they often dictate the direction of combat.  Why can't active player decision making within combat be the dominant governing force?  Why are things like meta traited steal, defy pain, incendiary powder or rune procs/passives allowed to have such an impact?  Why can't active abilities just be dangerous and well-cued?  

You can pretend all I'm saying is "OMG IT'S BAAAD," or you can take a look at the post directly above yours.

View PostDirame, on 23 February 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

You're seriously going to hate on a trait that has very little significance in the grand scheme of things? really? /facepalm
You're not going to question the poor fundamental design concepts behind something just because you think that it'll have a trivial impact on combat?  You would allow something so passive and boring to have impact on combat at all?

View PostDirame, on 23 February 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

when you start poking at a minor trait that doesn't even factor into much until you try to - stack all the passives together -
Oh, so you're saying now that it will have a tangible effect on combat?  Who doesn't stack loads of passive procs together?  GW2 is Passive Procs and DoTs:  The Video Game.  People win fights based on passive procs and DoTs because there are just so many of them going off here and there.

You would allow something so passive and boring to have impact on combat at all?  Answer my question so I can tell if you really care about having a decent game or not.

Edited by Doof, 24 February 2015 - 12:03 AM.


#33 Dirame

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 12:18 AM

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Oh, so you're saying now that it will have a tangible effect on combat?  Who doesn't stack loads of passive procs together?  GW2 is Passive Procs and DoTs:  The Video Game.  People win fights based on passive procs and DoTs because there are just so many of them going off here and there.

You would allow something so passive and boring to have impact on combat at all?  Answer my question so I can tell if you really care about having a decent game or not.

I'm saying it's insignificant on it's own.

I think our disagreement is just a case of me having a lower standard for minor traits and you having a higher standard for ALL traits. I'd prefer we discuss how to improve the traits and make them more profession changing.

#34 I post stuff

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 02:29 AM

I still don't see how passive procs are a bad thing.  

In the end, with how chaotic the combat can be in this game, passive procs work quite well. That being said active abilties and dodges are equally important. I don't think you're thinking this through enough.

They clearly wanted to make a class that has a self sacrifice vibe to it, hence the passives.

#35 Dirame

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 02:51 AM

I don't see how self sacrifice and passives work in the same sentence unless the passives make the character sacrifice health or energy, which they do not.

I hate complaining about passive procs because I think it's the same recycled complaint over and over again. I'd rather just say, "That trait and that trait and that trait could be better, here's how I'd improve them."

Obviously, Anet will never change it but rather they will put what you said in as a new trait entirely.

#36 Miragee

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 09:31 AM

View PostI post stuff, on 24 February 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

I still don't see how passive procs are a bad thing.  

In the end, with how chaotic the combat can be in this game, passive procs work quite well. That being said active abilties and dodges are equally important. I don't think you're thinking this through enough.

They clearly wanted to make a class that has a self sacrifice vibe to it, hence the passives.

Agreed, passive procs only become a bad idea (in competetive PvP) when they are going of by a chance. Everything that goes of by chance can't be used by the player as a direct measure. He can't rely on it because it's not a stable component. This means you rely on luck for a specific part of the outcome of a fight which is a bad thing.
There are games where passive procs that proc by chance are a fun idea such as PvE based hack'n'slays. But for competetive pvp it's just not a good idea. That being said, I don't see proc chances in the revenant's traits while other classes have them.

#37 Dirame

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 10:08 AM

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Mirage Said:

Agreed, passive procs only become a bad idea (in competetive PvP) when they are going of by a chance. Everything that goes of by chance can't be used by the player as a direct measure. He can't rely on it because it's not a stable component. This means you rely on luck for a specific part of the outcome of a fight which is a bad thing.
There are games where passive procs that proc by chance are a fun idea such as PvE based hack'n'slays. But for competetive pvp it's just not a good idea. That being said, I don't see proc chances in the revenant's traits while other classes have them.

Check again; Rampant Vex, Opportune Extraction, Frigid Precision, Pulsating Pestilence, Enduring Recovery, Destructive Hammer, Rejuvenating Steadfast.

#38 Doof

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 01:22 PM

View PostDirame, on 24 February 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

I'm saying it's insignificant on it's own.

I think our disagreement is just a case of me having a lower standard for minor traits and you having a higher standard for ALL traits. I'd prefer we discuss how to improve the traits and make them more profession changing.
So then you're fine with having passive effects add up onto each other in order to sway combat.  That's all you had to say.  You clearly don't mind if GW2's combat is driven by effects that are not actively triggered or maintained by players.


View PostI post stuff, on 24 February 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

I still don't see how passive procs are a bad thing.  

In the end, with how chaotic the combat can be in this game, passive procs work quite well.
The game's combat is chaotic because of the fact that it's driven so consistently by the effect of instant, un-cued, sometimes ranged and auto-targeted passive triggers.  It doesn't help that many of the "active" abilities that also win fights also activate instantly, faster than people can deal with, or they're just auto-attacks (which aren't effectively mitigated by invulnerabilities--such as dodge--because auto-attacks don't have cool-downs).

View PostI post stuff, on 24 February 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

That being said active abilties and dodges are equally important. I don't think you're thinking this through enough.
Dodges are for avoiding CC in most cases--if it isn't instant cast.  However, since most CC is either instant or very powerful due to the fact that the only real game mode in GW2 is "stack on this point," people trust in stability and passive stats instead.  Yeah, sure, we still get our two dodges, but in the end, they aren't the things that will typically carry us to victory.  

Thief has evasion while attacking, teleporting and stealth.
Mesmer has instant invulnerability and even daze built into its F skills along with stealth, blinks and stun-breaks.
Warrior and elementalist have passive healing, condition removal and stability.
Ranger has invulnerability and deals damage from off screen.
Guardian chains blocks, blinds and their elite together for extended invulnerability.
Engineer has blocks, invulnerability and a super-fast cast healing skill as well as AI from an elite.
Necromancer has an extra HP bar and fear (all but one source of which is instant).

Dodges aren't enough for any class, so we got these things to make up for the fact that we don't have an effective support role on the field.  Now, meta combat is full of bulky point fighters with passive stats, healing and stability except for the thief (and mesmer in some cases) because he already has invuln frames and multiple get-out-of-jail-free cards built into meta utility options which simultaneously contribute to DPS (mostly by being instant or near-instant cast).

View PostI post stuff, on 24 February 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

They clearly wanted to make a class that has a self sacrifice vibe to it, hence the passives.
If they wanted to do that, they would have just made a class focused on moving and dying fast for a big effect like taking someone down with him (which in that case, one could just play thief, because thief gets kills for free or fails to kill, but survives anyway).  There's nothing "self-sacrificing" about taking damage while passive triggers go off uncontrollably--especially in a game where there's nothing really to protect aside from a point which de-caps super fast anyway.

If you guys want to see what decent active traits would be in GW2 (granted there are still some here that are just tack-on bonuses), just reference the traits here:

http://www.guildwars...evenant-reveal/

#39 Dirame

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 08:20 PM

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So then you're fine with having passive effects add up onto each other in order to sway combat.  That's all you had to say.  You clearly don't mind if GW2's combat is driven by effects that are not actively triggered or maintained by players.

Keep throwing those words in my mouth. I haven't eaten today.

#40 Doof

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 09:29 PM

View PostDirame, on 24 February 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

Keep throwing those words in my mouth. I haven't eaten today.

You already admitted that it can have an effect when stacked with other passive procs.  My question to you afterward was "Who doesn't stack passive procs in GW2?" especially give that the vast majority of traits and gear are comprised of entirely passive procs that may or may not even require specific skill usage in order to trigger.

Then you go ahead and say:

View PostDirame, on 23 February 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

but when you start poking at a minor trait that doesn't even factor into much until you try to stack all the passives together

You're just repeating yourself.  Either stop talking or address whether or not you're fine with passives running the show in GW2.  Look at I Post Stuff.  He's clearly fine with it.  I mean, we can argue why it is an awful idea for a game that seeks to be competitive and engaging, but at least he's honest about it.

Edited by Doof, 24 February 2015 - 09:29 PM.


#41 I post stuff

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 09:31 PM

What passive triggers?

#42 Dirame

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 01:19 AM

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You already admitted that it can have an effect when stacked with other passive procs.  My question to you afterward was "Who doesn't stack passive procs in GW2?" especially give that the vast majority of traits and gear are comprised of entirely passive procs that may or may not even require specific skill usage in order to trigger.

Quote

You're just repeating yourself.  Either stop talking or address whether or not you're fine with passives running the show in GW2.  Look at I Post Stuff.  He's clearly fine with it.  I mean, we can argue why it is an awful idea for a game that seeks to be competitive and engaging, but at least he's honest about it.

I know there's really no point to commenting on this topic anymore because you're not willing to have a discussion, you're just all about calling people out and no discussion whatsoever. So I choose to stop talking.

#43 I post stuff

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 08:57 PM

View PostDirame, on 25 February 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:

I know there's really no point to commenting on this topic anymore because you're not willing to have a discussion, you're just all about calling people out and no discussion whatsoever. So I choose to stop talking.

Gaming forums in a nutshell. The discussions we have here have really no significance whatsoever, it's just an egoboosting thing or an opportunity to have a laugh.

#44 Phineas Poe

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Posted Today, 03:02 AM

View PostDoof, on 20 February 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

A full 2-second fear is often enough to effectively kill someone who can't stun-break it given how fast either damage resolves or DoTs build to lethal damage.  A full 2-second fear that also brings the target directly to a foe is going to be even more of a death sentence.  Most classes other than thief and mesmer are already hurting for stun-breaks in this game, and it's not often that we'll see anyone effectively run zerker in PvP other than maybe those two mentioned classes simply because those classes have loads of meta-game level get-out-of-jail-free cards.  For those who either don't have many stun-breaks to begin with or those who like to use stun-breaks actively just for their base effects, adding "reverse fear" to the game is going to make a further mess of things.

Berserker builds aren't popular in high-level PvP, but it has nothing to do with stunbreakers and everything to do with what other amulet options are available. The celestial meta is called the celestial meta because playing builds that make use of the massive statistical advantage that the celestial amulet provides are, as a result, statistically superior. As an engineer I make use of every stat down to healing power and condition damage; and because the celestial amulet gives more overall stats than berserker, that means I'm far more effective as a jack-of-all-trades than building toward a specialty. This is the same for warriors and elementalists, and is why they're the three most powerful classes in PvP at the moment.

I think it is unfair to categorize taunt as a PvE-only skill out of fear of CC saturation when we simply don't have the facts. You're right in one sense: there are a lot more crowd control skills available to several classes than there are stunbreakers available on one's bar, but we don't know the full story on the stability rework or what they fully meant by saying some player skills will grant defiance during the last stream.

Edited by Phineas Poe, Today, 03:17 AM.


#45 Arkham Creed

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Posted Today, 05:21 AM

If I may interject in regards to the stun breaker thing; boo hoo, cry me a river. I'm a ranger, we don't even have basic condition removal on par with other classes. Seriously I can only think of ONE skill that removes conditions off the top of my head; and its not meta approved. So frankly I'm actually looking forward to other classes getting to feel a little of the ranger's pain by suddenly getting crushed by a status effect that you simply don't have a way to deal with due to poor design. My planning to main a revenant (and thus having a class built from the ground up around these new effects) just makes it all the sweeter.





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