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JGrendahlMember Since 16 Jul 2011
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Posted ExplosivePinata on 19 December 2012 - 09:19 AM
Posted Feathermoore on 11 December 2012 - 07:50 PM
Posted Sinful01 on 29 November 2012 - 09:25 PM
Casuals will never be able to compete in the gold economy. It rewards people that play more, with more, like a job does.
No one can seem to balance a game so casual players get upgrades at a quick enough pace that they don't feel like the whole game is a grind while ensuring non-casuals don't just farm the everloving hell out of things, get maxed out in gear and then demand/require more. Grind is then added for the non-casuals, and it has the worst affect on the casuals. In this case, extra bad. Anyone without exotics before who was saving for them just saw the prices across the board double if not go higher. That dude thinking he only has a week of casual play left (after spending 2 weeks already) saving up for some exotic stuff just saw the goalpost moved.
So, IMHO, Karma is the only current thing. Communist Karma shall set casuals free. Make hideously ugly gear with Ascended stats, and make it cost a reasonable (reasonable for a casual person playing for a few hours a week, tops) amount of karma to purchase. Hell, make it a paper bag with a "I'm Not Hardcore" stamped on it in that "This End Up" font you see on packages IRL.
That way, casual players can purchase their welfare top-tier items and then move on to horizontal progression in the form of making their fugly gear less fugly.... or, if you really want to stick it to people, make the welfare gear un-transmutable.
Non-casual players can continue as the game is.
Posted Alleji on 29 November 2012 - 07:16 PM
Now, on to the conspiracy theory. If you don't feel like reading a wall of text, there's a tl;dr at the bottom.
GW2 is centered around its cash shop, which is not unreasonable, because Anet wants to make money and the cash shop is going to be a significant (if not primary?) source of that. The other one being box sales. Compared to a traditional sell-the-box-and-done games, Anet is committing to keeping up the servers for an indefinite period of time and putting out monthly content updates for free (as opposed to paid DLCs in most other games). So naturally, they'd be interested in players using the cash shop.
Prior to GW2's release I wouldn't bat an eyelash at that. Yeah, sure, if they want to go with a cash shop instead of sub, that's cool. It's cosmetic-only stuff, right? No problem there.
But then I realized just how deeply the presence of the cash shop influences the game design. I'm going to use WoW as a counterpoint here, but people familiar with multiple sub MMOs will find them largely interchangeable.
The basic idea is: Anet wants everyone to stay poor. Because if you don't have enough gold, you can always go to the cash shop and get more. They want you to get more. How did they change the game design to facilitate this?
- Low-scaling rewards. A lvl 10 completing an event will earn about 0.5 silver. A lvl 80 gets 1.5 silver. Compare to a lvl 10 quest in WoW rewarding 3.5 silver and lvl 60 in vanilla about 50 silver (it varied and I can't remember exactly - been a long time). A maxed character in GW2 earns 3x more for doing basic activities than a low lvl character, whereas a maxed character in WoW made 15x more.
- High taxes everywhere. To continue the above example, a waypoint to a nearby place at lvl 10 costs 10 copper. A waypoint at lvl 80 costs 1.5 silver. In other words, a 15x increase, when rewards increase only 1.5x. WoW doesn't have waypoints, but flight paths don't scale with level at all, just with distance (and ones in expansion areas are more expensive, but we're talking no expansions here). Trading post tax is also quite high at 15%, compared to WoW's 5% tax off the profits + variable listing fee, which almost never came close to 10%.
-Lack of a trading function. This very heavily compounds the trading post tax by taking away an option of bypassing it. People would be trading bulk amounts of materials and expensive items such as precursor between themselves, which is less gold taken out of the economy, which is bad for the cash shop.
- Dye drops. There's a thread right now where people are talking about the recently reduced dye drops. Unidentified dyes are fun to open and I can see why people are upset. I'm also upset, but I'll say that it makes sense for dyes to be more rare that they even are currently. Why? Cash shop. Why would anyone buy dyes from cash shop if they're 3 silver on the TP? Anet saw that and patched it up. A sound decision all around, but unfortunately, the simple existence of dyes in the cash shop takes away a tiny bit of fun from the game here: finding and identifying dyes.
- RNG everywhere. I'm not going to go into a detailed explanation here, because I think everyone knows this one. Suffice to say that RNG instead of guaranteed whatever is good for anet because gambling in any form takes the gold out of the economy.
- Inflating prices on the already-expensive crafting components. I first saw this as a simply stupid design decision, but it's actually quite intelligent, if you only look at the bigger picture. Why use piles of t6 crafting materials and ectos to craft the new ascended gear? Well, because those materials are already in demand for creating legendaries! Kill two birds with one stone: create a new gold sink and make the old one bigger by inflating some of the crucial ingredients. Meanwhile, we get a rich orichalcum vein which significantly devalues a semi-rare material that's not really a limiting factor anywhere.
- This is a bit of an anecdotal evidence, but I think ecto salvages have been stealth-nerfed in November's update. Whereas I was not getting ectos from about 20% of the salvages before, now I'm failing to salvage them from over 30% of rares. (I've actually recorded some stats, but the sample size only around 100 rares and it's in no way conclusive because there may be other factors involved, such as the type of item).
EDIT: Apparently lots of people on official forums thought so too, but it's been statistically proved wrong since. I'm still getting terrible results from salvaging rares.
- Worldwide economy instead of server economies. This serves to largely eliminate a "middle class" : a casual trader or a crafter, who would spend some of his time at the trading post for a profit that's well above average, but not sky-high to the point where he can pay his rent by selling gold. In a worldwide economy, only the most dedicated market players can compete and there's no room for crafting because there's 5000 instead of 50 crafters online at any given time willing to undercut each other. As a result, 0.1% of players (Occupy Lion's Arch!) may become absurdly rich and never need to use the gem store in their life, but the 4.9% that would've been moderately rich are instead locked out of the trading game and kept at a controlled level of income that anyone can get from farming Orr or dungeons or whatever. The remaining 95% are unaffected.
- Lastly, the very existence of the cash-to-gold conversion is bugging me. 300g for a Dusk is a huge amount of gold to me. I have about 100g at the moment and I play quite a bit. Probably about 2 hours a weekday on average and much more on a weekend. So it would take me hundreds of hours to get a legendary, which is working as intended. But, I could put down roughly what I make it 2 days at work and buy that Dusk. (Slightly more if you make minimum wage, but for anyone with a job, with the only exception being that 0.1% professional in-game trader, RL-income is higher than game-income.)
I'm not about to do that, because it feels like cheating and I don't think I'd get much satisfaction out of buying my legendary with cash, but the idea that you can do that certainly diminishes the game as a whole for me. Moreover, there are people doing it and they're increasing the cost for everyone else by taking the gold out of the economy.
TL;DR: The cash shop in GW, although not directly selling power, influences the game in a lot of ways. The existence of the cash shop and gold-to-gem exchange makes it Anet's prerogative to keep players poor so they are tempted to buy stuff or gold with cash.
- Rewards don't scale well between low and max lvl characters
- There are high taxes built into the game in form of AH fees, WP fees, and lack of trading function.
- Drop rates get normalized to be in line with cash shop items, not with "fun". Dye nerf is an example of this. Requiring a ton of t6 mats and ectos to craft the new stuff and deter people from their legendaries is another.
- Global market as opposed to a per-server economy eliminates a "middle class", downgrading them to the baseline income/
- Ability to buy the most desired items in the game with cash via gold-to-gem, which just shouldn't be there.
I wish Anet just charged 15$/month for this game and never had this cash shop.
Posted Geralt Romalion on 06 December 2012 - 11:39 AM
The only other real way is to have bosses drop them.
But that would still mean you have to repeat the instance over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to POSSIBLE get the item you want.
Or Anet could think of more ways to get e-peen so grinding gold for hours and hours won't be the only option.
In GW1 you had e-peen that could be bought with gold, but also e-peen that couldn't.
Services from other players aside, you could not buy your Legendary Vanquisher title or the Zei Ri hero.
You obtained them by clearing maps/completing a very challenging questline in Hardmode respectively.
GW1 also had less goldsinks, making it easier to obtain money in the first place.
I won't say GW1 was perfect, but it had more ways of obtaining your desired e-peen then simply farm gold -> get item ( that ofcourse was still an option, hence all the perma sins in uwsc, but it wasn't the only way ).
Posted Darkobra on 06 December 2012 - 11:33 AM
Posted Geralt Romalion on 06 December 2012 - 11:31 AM
Why do people feel the need to get more e-penis than everyone else without working for it?
I believe the OP doesn't mind working for e-peen, he just dislikes having to do the same thing a million times in a row, in order to simply earn gold to buy this e-peen.
Every form of e-peen boils down to grinding gold in order to buy it.
As such, there is no real sense of achievement, nor is it original.
OP would probably like more ways of getting said e-peen regardless of the amount of time invested, instead of just grind gold->buy item1, repeat until infinity.
Posted Soki on 06 December 2012 - 11:19 AM
Good players are not rewarded for overcoming challenges – the majority of the game’s status symbols and cool items are gained from performing an easy task for an inordinate amount of time. This sums up my opinion, and why I think GW2 is not as good a game as it could be – but I implore you to read the rest of the post if you’re going to add to the discussion.
I believe that Guild Wars 2 was designed with the philosophy of urging players to spend money to buy Gems to convert to Gold – first and foremost; with every system in the game pushing players to spend money on the Gem store for gold.
Every single item that is even remotely neat or hard to get in this game is received from the Mystic Forge.
Not only does tossing a huge amount of trade materials into the forge remove flavor from the items you’re getting; but it empowers players who have a lot of RL capital to spend far more than it should.
The exotics for a fresh 80 are cheap enough – 12g maximum to deck yourself out, inclusive of exotic jewelry. This ignores runes and sigils.
After this, players go for cosmetic gear to transmute their stat-gear into. Here is where the tacky design starts up.
When you transmute gear’s appearence, you lose the actual item you’re transmuting. The two items fuse into one. That means that if you ever want to use that item’s skin again, you need to reacquire it.
After getting the item skins and transmuting your exotics to what you want, what do we, as players, have to strive for? Vanity items, like Mystic Weapons and other neat-looking gear from the Mystic Forge.
Mystic Weapons are Okay. They have a feasible grind attached to them. To make a Mystic weapon, it usually costs between 7 to 12 gold , which is entirely feasible. I wish it were more than a simple grind for gold, but hey, it's from the Mystic Forge. No big deal. ...Or it wouldn't be, if there were unique items to get that were ~not~ tied to the Mystic Forge (and thus, gold).
Check these recipes out:
Most of these unique equipments take an excessive, unfeasible amount of goldto get. No flavor. No quest. No challenge. No adventure. No journey. No ~fun~. Just grind. Plain, boring gold grind.
These equips don’t even have a unique sigil or rune.
With the way the market works, it’s nearly impossible for the average player to amass money at a decent rate without grinding, unless they convert bought gems to gold. Killing a champion in the world does not give you appropriate reward for the effort involved. Aside from this fact, Champions are generally pretty bland – just normal mobs with more health and damage. ~That’s it~.
As you can tell, I am very disappointed with how GW2 turned out – and have seen these sentiments mirrored by many other players. The game’s combat is fluid, and the gameplay is solid – but gameplay should be supported by strong systems that reward good players – and GW2’s economic and legendary/vanity item systems simply do not deliver on that. They reward spending real money on the gemstore and converting to gold; or grinding easy content until you drop.
As far as discussion goes, I’m interested to see what the broad community of GW2Guru forums think about the state of the game; and what they feel about my opinions on the underlying item-acquisition systems of GW2; independent of the gameplay.
Posted Trei on 04 December 2012 - 04:33 AM
Not to say that high, (but still random) chance = good and low chance = bad. Not quite. For example, I think all the various lodestones are ok to have because they can be farmed and eventually the rate at which they can be obtained will average out. For people not actively farming them, they're just a nice bonus.
+ Having an alternative guaranteed path to obtain something that's RNG-dependent fixes the problem in 9 out of 10 cases.
If it had been up to me, I would make short quests or encounters of extreme difficulty, with severe unique profession-based limitations, that a player must solo through to be rewarded with a specific range of precursors.
What comes to mind is something in the direction of the old-school circa.2005 demon encounters for the hunter class-quest weapon Rhok-Delar in WoW (aka "you must solo that demon as a hunter, without your pet, with a melee weapon"), except it would be much shorter, much more difficult and instanced.
These are the kind of encounters I would be totally fine with throwing in all kinds of resist requirements, incidentally.
Then that guy I see shooting flowers all over?
Ah I might chuckle... but I would also know and have to respect the guy, because he managed to overcome a foe of legendary difficulty.
Posted Shroomhead Fred on 27 November 2012 - 05:53 AM
I don't care how they want to spin it, the game was marketed as a revolutionary step for MMOs and the big selling point for me personally was no boring grind. With the latest patch I don't understand how they can say they've stayed true to that statement. The new ascended gear in their current form are a mammoth grind, I don't think anyone can claim otherwise. If it was purely cosmetic, like legendaries, I wouldn't give 2 shits.
This AMA confirms vertical progression and the grind that comes with it are the way of the future and that's disappointing for those of us that expected something completely different.
At this stage I don't really care. I got my 60 bucks worth and will continue playing casually until another game peaks my interest, but I won't be supporting this game any further through the cash shop or future expansions.
Posted DuskWolf on 27 November 2012 - 04:33 AM
Why The Stat Cap Is So Important
He was being diplomatic regarding vertical progression, though. I feel that vertical progression is for the young, those who've forgotten how nice it is to reach a culmination. The power plateau is that culmination, and vertical progression is the antithesis of it. I see the power plateau as reaching the last chapter of a really good book. You can then read it again, or go back and casually paw through the pages of your favourite chapters.
If you introduce vertical progression, it's like... having the last chapter of a book dangled in front of your nose. But you have to read the previous chapter 20 times in order to 'earn' it. Then when you get that one, it isn't really the last chapter, it's a bunch of dramatic padding. You feel short-changed and you decide to put in the grinding time to get the next chapter, hoping that one is the ending. Eventually, you do enough of this that you condition yourself to believe that doing this is okay, that just being given a good ending to the book is contrary to what you'd believe is fun.
I'd say that vertical progression is a cancer to game design for that reason, due to endlessly moving goal posts. You can never reach the power plateau and then go and explore all the nooks and crannies of the game at your leisure because you haven't reached the end. You haven't hit that power plateau. And as that power plateau is pushed ever further and further away, and future 'chapters' (future content) is gated behind the endless grinding required to get in, you lose interest.
That's the problem, vertical progression eventually and inevitably leads to gated content. ArenaNet have pretty much told me at this point that they're going to get to a point where there's going to be a lot of gated content that I either have to pay money for gems to enter (likely as well as buying the expansion pack), or I have to grind grind grind my way there. I don't think that's fun. I have a clear idea of fun and that's not it. To me, that seems like a cancer that's eroding good game design amongst MMOs. There should be a power plateau, an end point. All good games have that.
Otherwise it's an incomplete experience. And nothing bothers me more than that.
Furthermore, contrary to the post, there are MMOs out there which actually do have a power plateau, and I enjoy them. Guild Wars 1, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, and so on. Now what this means is that I've dumped GW2 in favour of other games, because I don't want to be chasing goalposts. I want to be able to play the game leisurely. And in my opinion, if you haven't hit the power plateau, the game does punish you with cheap mechanics (like one-shots which are caused purely by a foe's numbers being better than your numbers).
Maybe if GW2 wasn't so obsessed with the notion of my numbers versus those of my foes and was actually a more skill based game (like, say, Mass Effect 3's multi-player), then perhaps the power-plateau wouldn't be necessary. But in a game that fetishises stats to such a profound degree, GW2 needs that power plateau. We were promised that power plateau, that end to vertical progression. That was a lie. Almost hoping someone will have up for that, to be honest, because by saying that they're including vertical progression now, the promise of a power plateau was a total lie.
The post makes a great case for why GW2 needs a power plateau.
But what game doesn't have a power plateau and does decide everything by numbers? Oh, that's right. WoW. Weren't we here because we didn't want to play WoW?
Posted asbasb on 27 November 2012 - 12:52 AM
I cannot play a game that won't let me get over the gear work part, in order to start working towards things I really like(skins/titles). I can't enjoy horizontal progression without having finished vertical progression. It feels like I'm wasting my time if I go for looks over power, even if the increase in power is just 0.1%.
Vertical progression was in the game from the beginning in the form of leveling to 80 and gearing up in exotics, but the process was short enough for me to soldier through/ignore it while I let myself get distracted by events, personal story and the details in the world around me. It also had a definite endpoint, a plateau that we all were sure of is never going to be surpassed. Now, with vertical progression being basically open ended, there's no chance I will ever reach a point where I can stop worrying about working to reach the top.
Posted DuskWolf on 27 November 2012 - 05:51 PM
It's a sad state of affairs when ArenaNet themselves are being as intellectually dishonest as the fanboys. For me, this is the final nail in the coffin. Let me translate, so that you may understand my ire. What he's said is this: A game that doesn't have vertical progression isn't challenging and/or rewarding.
Okay, so... Grand Theft Auto: Vice City wasn't? Saints Row III wasn't? L.A. Noire wasn't? Portal wasn't? Alan Wake wasn't? Left 4 Dead wasn't? VVVVVV wasn't? I'm sorry, but that's like insisting to me that the sky is always the same shade of green no matter what the time of day or night. It's ridiculous. Unless you're touched, you're going to see the obvious truth here. That all of these games were fun, challenging, and rewarding without the necessity of any form of vertical progression.
Here is a truth: Vertical progression is what you do when you're too lazy to create a good game, because there are always weak-willed saps who'll be easily conditioned to believe that they're having fun with vertical progression.
(Bah, this was riddled with typos. Fixed now. That's how much this has annoyed me, really. To say what he's saying is to spit in the face of every awesome game that has done away with vertical progression. He's a bloody charlatan.)
Posted Redhawk2007 on 26 November 2012 - 03:05 PM
This game is becoming a Korean cash shop grinder from Hell. With the exception of karma jugs I can't think of a single thing they have done to improve the gaming experience for players and reduce the typical MMO crap that this game was supposed to be an antidote for, but instead is a major carrier of the disease.
Posted Kymeric on 20 November 2012 - 04:05 PM
The fact is that ANet has stated we needed a gear increase to continue having progression at endgame.
Once they've decided that, there is no stopping. If people need a slight increase over Exotic because they've gotten all of their Exotics, it's ludicrous to think they won't need a slight increase over Ascended as soon as a good portion have achieved a full set of Ascended. Over the life of the game, insignificant increases will eventually add up to significant increases, and then what?
There is no such thing as "almost gear progression". There is either gear progression, or gear plateau.