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Master Eriko

Member Since 23 Jan 2012
Offline Last Active Jan 26 2014 12:41 AM

#2068665 Guild Wars 2 sPVP - The Death Spiral of Competitive Play (Analysis/Rant)

Posted GammaWolf on 08 November 2012 - 02:54 PM

As several threads have pointed out, it has become very apparent that there has been a major drop-off in the interest in s/tPvP.

Paid tournaments are seeing long queue times even during peak hours, and there seems to be a dwindling number of teams that are taking the game seriously anymore.

There are several reasons for this:
- Stagnant, uninteresting play (bunker guardian, tp mesmer in every comp, few viable builds overall)
- Limited options for solo players
- New or pickup teams have no consistent way to play against other evenly skilled opponents
- The ticket system is placing a barrier in front of people who may actually want to try to find consistent arranged opponents
- tPvP is missing many basic features that even GW1 released with 7 years ago
I elaborate on these points in the following video.



The actual combat mechanics and gameplay are very good, but this system currently in place is not fostering a healthy growing competitive community.

It is my hope that posts and videos like this will spur Anet to take immediate action to save the competitive side of their game as we are dangerously close to losing the critical mass of players that is necessary to sustain competitive sPvP.

QPs Post:
Based on the qualifier point post made yesterday there are ~70 players with 5 points or more which equals 14 teams that have had any sort of consistency if the list is accurate.

That isn’t enough to run 2 fully competitive tournaments at once. If you look at the number of people who have more than 20 points and probably win / farm newer teams consistently, it looks like around 4 teams which can even run 1.

These are Anets own numbers, and should in my view be a red flag for people who would like to see a healthy scene.


#1668287 yes, your guardian is one of the strongest offensive professions

Posted TheKnox on 02 August 2012 - 08:11 PM

Warriors have access to rifles and longbows. This clearly makes them superior against flying creatures.  Since there are no flying creatures in sPvP, the warrior is obviously the weaker class when fighting flightless players. Why would a class that is strong against flying mobs be strong against non-flying mobs too? That does not make sense! But more importantly, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this argument? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this argument! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm talkin' about flying people! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, if people can't fly, you must concede that guardians are excellent damage dealers! The defense rests.


#1655625 yes, your guardian is one of the strongest offensive professions

Posted Psyko on 30 July 2012 - 09:19 PM

View PostRayana1, on 30 July 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

She is not saying that the guardian can’t play another role or even an offensive role.  She mentions this in a context of a competitive PVP tournament with only 5 spots open in the team.

I mentioned that trickle down effect from high end to casual play earlier, and I will mention it again here.  Whether you MEAN tournament PvP or not, the attitude WILL have an effect on other parts of the game.  In that respect, tournament players can not afford to shut out those possibilities, both as a responsibility to the community, and for other reasons I will discuss below.

Also, to illustrate what I am trying to get at lets try an exercise, I will give you three professions, and I want you to give me the role you would place them in based on their "strengths".  And if you are willing to play along, then tell me how those strengths can be applied to the completely opposite situation successfully.

Engineer
Thief
Ranger

Im not trying to provide a trick question, i just picked the first three profs off the top of my head.  My logic is that if the guardian has this one particular THING it is good at to the point that you are willing to ignore it's other functionality, then the rest of the professions should function the same way.  There should be some SINGULAR aspect of their class that makes them tailor made for one SINGULAR aspect of PvP.  That is what is being suggested here, I don't care on WHAT level of play you are talking about. (and I am not trying to be smart either, if these classes really DO function like that, then I don't really see it, so do enlighten me if this is the case)

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The problem is the “out of the box ideas” are the limitations confining ANET themselves as to what the profession excels at and what the profession is weak at.  If this were not the case there would be no names for the profession and no descriptions of the professions.

This does not really demonstrate an understanding with exactly what a "profession" is to Anet, nor how design is really accomplished.  (before we even start, yes, I am a designer, I have five years experience with it, I know how it is done).  A creative designer would have no problem defining, very strictly, what a profession's "flavor" is, then using that flavor as the driving force behind how they accomplish all three aspects of gameplay equally with other professions.  In other words, you are confusing a prof's "flavor" with their "capabilities" and how both of those should affect balance.

For example, the warrior is able to tank a lot of damage, it doesnt need to be as evasive.  A mesmer, on the other hand, can "handle" just as much damge, or more.  The mesmer needs to, it has less health.  But the way it 'handles' this damage is unique to it's "flavor".  It creates illusions that redirects damage from the mesmer to the pets.  Elementalist is in the same boat, but it achieves survivability through the mobility of it's skills.  (i can go farther and say "offensive" is not synonymous with damage, but this post is long already, and I think you are smart enough to make those parallels)

Are there things each of these professions would be better at?  yes, absolutely, but it would not be something on as basic a level of play as "damage, control, support".  It would be how the elementalist is very adept at AoE in just about all of their weapon sets, or how the mesmer's weapons all achieve some sort of illusion effect.  Basically, what I am saying is that assuming the three roles of "damage, control and support" (which are the actual categories btw, not offense support and defense, or whatever three word combination I have seen) need to be OUT of balance for certain classes is a fallacy, and that "class flavor" is a different concept from "class balance".  (whether or not this is achieved in game is a different argument, and if you ask me it is not quite there, but I do believe Anet is, on some level, attempting this level of balance.)

How this is achieved for the guardian is it's unique area denial abilities.  The ones that make them good node defenders can also make them potent offensive professions, but if you do not keep an open mind as to HOW that is achieved, then you shut yourself off to the possibilities.  One quick example is ring of warding.  Great for keeping people off a node, also great for creating a cage match of death.  Line of warding creates space for you to hit them while they are trying to catch up to you (if you happen to be skewed to range), it can also clog choke points, which is more obvious, but not more viable.

All of the blatantly defensive crap going on with the guard's skills doesnt need to happen, and they can have weapons of equal offensive capacity to other profs without negatively effecting balance.  (and you see that change happen as development has been going on, greatsword used to have symbol of swiftness, and leap of faith used to give regen, it is much more offensively skewed now)

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GW2 allows for re-traiting and allows for swapping out weapons and skills to give any profession the option to fulfill any role, but this is more applicable to PVE and to Hot Join PVP.  It is not applicable to optimal team selection with five spots open with 8 professions when you are in a highly competitive environment in a large guild (there are exceptions to this as Anirien pointed out).

Simply saying it is 'not applicable' is trying to shake of a responsibility that all high level people need to consider.  Saying that one level of competition shuts out possibilities is like saying "i have so much money i don't need to think about managing my budget"  especially if managing your budget was HOW you made so much money.  The same idea, if being innovative is what wins you competitions, then high level play cannot afford to have any trace of an exclusivity attitude like the ones found in this thread.

And again, I am not arguing the guardian is completely "there" offensively, but assuming that the support/defense is the only thing it is good at just because, at face value, that is what it's skills are tailored for, is shutting out your ability to see otherwise.



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Good paragraph and you should read the last sentence again.  I think you just talked yourself into trying more support and defensive guardian builds ;)

and in case it passed you by, he was saying that people in this thread are holding the guardian's capabilities up to an unachievable standard by saying it needs to be "better than the best in every category" before we take it seriously.  If you are waiting for perfection like that, then it will never happen.  Now, maybe you knew that, if you did, then I'm sorry, but I don't see any indication that you did.


Edit: closing comments.  I get the feeling some people think the meta of this game is going to be this static min/max situation.  Whether that is true or not can not be determined at this point in time, but you should be prepaired for the possibility that it is going to be a dynamic, constantly changing thing, even if that is just to keep your point of view open.