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DahkMember Since 23 May 2012
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Posted Dirame on 11 November 2013 - 03:38 AM
Of course I've been playing the build for quite a while now and I've modified it greatly from what it started out as. You can check my guide below and you can read Loperdos' guide as well. I use a different set-up compared to him but I believe both are equally valid, it just depends on how you want to play.
Anyway, without further ado, check out the guide below and click the links for the builds and readable guide.
Loperdos' Guide; http://www.guildwars...ling-tormentor/
My SPvP Spec; http://gw2skills.net...XyvswM YJyOgZAA
WvW Spec; http://gw2skills.net...YGzFRrWKgJlGB-w
Posted Thaddeuz on 07 November 2013 - 01:35 PM
Posted Epixors on 05 November 2013 - 07:35 PM
so today I added some parts on the calculator I made to test what would optimize Brazil's 15/15/0/20/20 Hammer build and made it a more general calculator.
I expanded it a bit further so you can now punch in your own build for testing purposes.
Here's a few thing to note:
- The calculator assumes full ascended
- The calculator assumes you're always using scholar runes (it's for DPS Guardians)
- The calculator assumes any DPS buff you list as active is active 100% of the time.
- The calculator doesn't seperate traits based on weapons. If you get Right-Hand Strength and a 2-handed weapon it will still add the crit chance. Might change this, probably will not.
- The traits/points are in the second sheet, bottom-left of the spreadsheet
I tried to make sure everything works together (for example Strength in Numbers will improve toughness, based on that Maintenance Oils improves, etc.)
If you find any bugs/mistakes please tell me about it and I will try to fix it ASAP!
Special thanks to:
- Brazil (started with his Hammer build)
- Nike (Effective Power calculator and listing which foods are useful so I didn't have to think myself)
Posted Chase on 05 November 2013 - 09:31 PM
Author's Note: This is a work in progress. I have deliberately left sections blank while I'm working on them. I noted this as best I could through the guide.
Table of Contents
1. In PvE, the meta refers to the most popular techniques, player builds, team compositions, or speed-clearing strategies. […] The PvE meta represents the community's best guesses as to the most efficient way of playing. In contrast to PvP, good PvE players do not have to read the PvE meta, although most min-max practitioners believe it is foolish to use any but the most efficient tools.
This is what I still believe the term "meta" means for GW2. A meta should explain the build, skills, and tactics along with their purpose and audience so others can evaluate effectiveness. Currently, the 25/30/0/0/15 "meta" for maximum DPS has existed since Aug '12 in the beta weekends (way before Brazil's guide) and will continue to exist past the December 10th balance-patch.
However, not everyone wants to focus purely on DPS for a variety of reasons (e.g. new to the game, bad lag, playing with pugs). That meta is more in-line with organized group comps that practice speed-clearing tactics. I have therefore worked out a base that provides the basis of the near Thief Meta: 0/30/0/0/10.
Having 30 points in Critical Strikes is the backbone of most direct damage Thief builds, and for good reason. You'll have a variety of excellent traits to choose from, two that I rarely change are Side Strike and Executioner.
Lastly 10 points in Trickery provides the two powerful traits that will either provide Fury to the party or add an additional 5% damage when flanking a target (i.e. attacking a target from the side or back).
Where to go from here?
With the buff to Sundering Strikes coming in December, 10 points in Deadly Arts, will be a good idea to start practicing with.
At least 5 more points in Trickery are strongly recommended so the Thief can more comfortably provide control for various encounters (e.g. AoE blinds, AoE/single-target weakness).
Nonetheless, I will quickly outline the various ways to allocate the remaining 30 trait points, so your thief build can provide damage, survivability, or support.
Six templates are loosely organized below, on a spectrum following: "DPS", then "Added Support", and finally "Self-Survivability". Ideally you'll play top to bottom, with the top two being great for organized, practiced group comps, the middle two a healthy in-between, and the bottom two being capable of carrying pugs.
The Advanced DPS
The Classic DPS
The All-Star ★ Thief
The Fifth Horseman
The "DPS" Build (Dysfunctional Party Syndrome)
The Shadow Fighter
Currently my favorite is the All-Star 10/30/0/0/30 as it provides much more party support than the straight DPS builds but still packs a good punch. I also happen to roam/zerg in WvW and play PvP and this build works fabulously in those aspects as well. DPS wise, in a solo position it is ~7.5% worse than the Classic DPS build, and in a perfect party (and I do mean extremely perfect.) it is a ~10% hit to DPS. For the average player, I feel this hit to DPS is an agreeable alternative to the top two builds posted.
However, it should also be noted that both the Advanced DPS and Classic DPS builds can out survive the All-Star build with just a few tweaks to gear. And they both will still offer greater DPS than the All-Star and will have stronger self-survivability.
The reason I still stick to the All-Star, in spite of this fact, is that I often play in uncoordinated parties. The fury and vigor uptime on the All Star are in my opinion a much stronger alternative. That being said, if you find you don't need twice the dodging or greater uptime on fury, then adding some defensive stats to the first two builds are an excellent method of surviving better in tough single-player situations or a quick-fix for a bad pug (Think valkyrie armor or cavalier trinkets such as earrings).
For the Dysfunctional Party builds and the Shadow Fighter, condition removal is basically coming from stealthing in the first 10 points of Shadow Arts or from Sword 2, Shadow Return (Step), or Signet of Agility. Choose either method based on whether you believe stealth on the self or extra dodging for you and the party is the safer method. Personally I would opt for extra party dodges -- about every 4s for yourself and 5-6s for your party -- compared to a dodge every 10s without vigor on the Shadow Fighter.
In general, the highest DPS to worst DPS usually goes something like: Critical Strikes, Deadly Arts, Trickery, Acrobatics, and lastly Shadow Arts. You can see from the above list of template builds that this kind of general guideline is also followed. (Mainly it has to do with what stats are being affected and the number of damage modifiers that a tree provides. Damage modifiers can make a huge difference!)
The reasons for such are explained:
In Deadly Arts:
In Critical Strikes:
In Shadow Arts (Only listed up to 10 points):
In Acrobatics (Only listed up to 15 points)
Regardless of what traits you end up choosing, a thief is capable of reproducing all of the following (unless noted otherwise). I've added videos where I can to show an example.
(Blank as I figure out how code formatting works on the forums)
* Weapon Skill Spreadsheet
* Build & Stat Comparison Tool (or for the actual Google Doc)
Nov 20th, 2013 - Finished and added v1.0 gear spreadsheet. Increased general information on gearing. Wrote a broad guideline to damage traits. Changed weapon sets to "Gear" and added some broad information. Made a quick note on flanking vs backstab. Deleted the Legend from traits (I don't think it helped anyone). Revised the traits to show best to worst from a DPS standpoint. Compared DPS of Shadow Fighter and "DPS" builds and re-organized them based on the DPS, Party Support, Self-Survivability tree. Planning to change 0/30/0/20/20 "DPS" build to 0/30/0/15/25 after December 10th patch. Working on tables for the reference section.
Posted Phenn on 05 November 2013 - 09:00 PM
It's frustrating when you don't see good strong arguments being accepted, but don't give up.
Yeah--I'm really not all that confrontational, I just get worked up over injustices. I'll keep at it. It's one of those things that is broken at a fundamental level, so I marvel at how easily it can be ignored.
Thanks for the input/encouragement.
Posted Ship Soo on 05 November 2013 - 06:22 PM
Can't people just acknowledge that both people don't all come in one flavor and that both sides are valid, even if you don't agree with them?
An I think that is a great way to end the thread.
1) do what you find fun
2) respect others, even though the internet makes to so easy to inflict grief
3) ignore things that annoy you
Thanks to all in the thread who were civil. Let's take this into other threads as well.
Posted Epixors on 05 November 2013 - 04:12 PM
- Assassin's Legs and Head
- Perception/Night Hammer. In case Night doesn't apply the next best option is Force, Accuracy after that (assuming keeping up the 25 stacks). I don't want to put both Bloodlust and Perception stacks in a single build because well, go down once and it's gone.
- Curry Butternut Squash Soup > Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash > Active Dragon's Breath Bun > Butternut Squash > Truffle Steak >
- Slaying Potion > Sharpening Stone > Maintenance Oil (any other useful utilities I may have overlooked?)
These calculations assume the following:
- 25 might
- 25 vulnerability
- fury up
- Frost Spirit
- Banner of Discipline
- Banner of Strength
EDIT: Misread food, Curry Butternut Squash Soup appears to be be best.
Posted Epixors on 04 November 2013 - 07:27 PM
Posted Epixors on 04 November 2013 - 03:23 PM
however, inner fire does not proc from torch 4 and is hence a terrible trait; blind exposure is much better.
You should listen to what he says first of all.
Breaking down my critics on the build:
- Inner Fire is terrible, get Blind Exposure, it helps with stacking vuln alot
- The torch is pretty much meh, because you're a DPS build you're a bit squishy and the blocks, blinds and regen from Focus really help when you're in a pinch (and also stacking vuln through Blind Exposure with #4)
- A staff can be useful, but generally isn't worth taking over the Greatsword for bursting except when it helps in some skips and control situations.
- Empowering Might is only able to keep up ~3-4 stacks of might with sword from my testing, not really worth spending 10 points for because if you run with a PUG you'd rather be a bit more survivable and if you run with an organized group others should take care of stacking might, it's not really the Guardians job (tho they do provide Fire Fields and blasts if they're hammer-specced)
- Sigil of Battle is pretty bad for a Guardian for the same reasons mentioned above, probably take a Greatsword with either Night, Force or a Dungeon Specific one. If you don't run with warriors/rangers for Spotter/Banner of Discipline perhaps it's smart to carry one around with Sigil of Perception to increase your crit chance somewhat more.
- You should at least put 10 in virtues for Master of Consecrations, probably 20 so you have stronger regen from Virtue of Resolve and can remove conditions.
- You should swap out Smite Condition for Purging Flames. Purging Flames removes more, can be used almost like a Null Field with a bit of effort, is a valuable Fire Field, decreases condition duration, does more damage and is on just a bit longer cooldown (28 sec traited).
- You shouldn't really be using "Save Yourselves!", you should remove them from your allies instead of bombing yourself with them. I suggest you always have "Retreat!", aegis and swiftness are very valuable. Also always have Purging Flames for the condition removal. I usually swap out my third slot (sometimes "Retreat!" but I ususally like leaving it there, if I need a lot of reflect tho I might take both SoA and WoR) with Hallowed Ground/"Stand Your Ground!" (depends on where, if I want to be able to move out of the circle, how long I need stability, etc.), Wall of Reflection and Shield of the Avenger. Others I use very rarely.
Hope that helps you
EDIT: Spelling errors, MORE TO COME!
Posted Chase on 04 November 2013 - 01:51 AM
The way I came up with the 20 30 0 0 20 build is that I started with the classic gc meta, and added utility to it (the master trait in trickery, just 5-10 points from DA). I suppose if dagger/improvisation isn't that important, the Lead Attacks would be better. The 15 points in DA could let SB4/dagger auto attack chain provide 25% uptime on weakness. However, I noticed with no 20 Acro or 15 DA that you can easily stack 15 seconds of weakness on a boss (24-30s on veterans, I'm assuming it's halved). To blast finish the poison field on SB I'm finding an easy 15+ seconds of weakness as well. Not sure the 4 seconds are gonna really help on these aspects.
I may have to concede that the 0 30 0 15 25 build is the one. The only one I'm holding onto now is the 0 30 0 0 30 because the cooldown on Steal goes from 28 to 21 seconds. With the hits to Vigor coming soon, the only reason I'd recommend the lower CD is for more crit chance. At 28, you give 7% crit chance to the party; at 21 you provide 9.5%. Considering fury can come from other sources, besides thieves, would the last 2.5% even be worth it? I'm not sure. I'm guessing not.
Posted Epixors on 03 November 2013 - 09:47 PM
Yes, once you learn the fights, once you have mastered all the content, berserker gear will be more efficient, but it takes a lot of hours to get all that accomplished.
Start with defensive gear. Pick up those defensive talents. Don't shed them until you learn all the encounters, unless you want to spend most of your time waiting for your teammates to get out of combat so you can waypoint.
There's a reason that DnT people run with no defense. They've played this game a lot. Dinging 80 and expecting to be on the same level of playing as them just isn't realistic, even if striving to get to that point is wise.
Yeah it won‘t be smart to go full DPS right from the start, just explaining why you‘d eventually want to go (near) full DPS. You make a good point though, forgot to mention the eventually part
However don‘t fall into the trap of going some full-sentinel AH build and then expecting it‘ll go smoothly when transitioning. Find a sweet spot, practice, replace more with berserker when you can handle it, rinse and repeat.
Posted Tessa Avery on 31 October 2013 - 07:44 AM
Thought I'd share this build, it's a combo of yours and one I found from about a year ago. It has amazing burst and I am still comfortable with it's survivability. I agree with your assessment on centaur runes. I know people will argue about shadow refuge, but when I can kill almost anyone with 1-2 secs I personally feel it offsets that disadvantage. I have done 20k+ damage in under 2 secs with this build on single target (2 pistol whips, I can usually do three with devourer keeping them from moving and haste making pistol whip very much quicker), The strength of this build though imho is aoe damage The difference between your and this one is only in 2 elite skills. I hit my personally high in kills in a hot join with this build at 19.
See for my play style I will never use haste just because it puts you in a bad spot with no endurance. Also I don't focus on insta ganking because IF your opener fails you are in a bad spot since you use your utilities to help kill people fast opposed to surviving. I prefer to just outplay my opponents without having to jump and insta kill them but how you use the thief class is completely up to you and if it works for you keep on using it. Thanks for the input though I appreciate it!
Posted Desild on 28 October 2013 - 09:55 PM
And while it feels zealous about what aggressive comments might be, it might be more helpful for them if they simply shoot down comments that boil down to "living story sucks". ArenaNet isn't known for having thick skin, sadly, after 6 years of mass adorarion from its fans.
This coming from me is worth it's weight in gold. I'm all about skepticism and spite. Hope it doesn't stain my street cred.
Posted Desild on 23 October 2013 - 11:44 PM
Posted cyclopsje on 25 October 2013 - 11:52 PM
Fortunately, you don't actually have to put up with these people. You can either:
1) Ignore them and/or kick them immediately.
2) Ignore them and kick them at the end of the run and sell the empty slot for some free gold.
point 1 yes i agree.
the second point is just childish and anyone doing that is just pathetic.