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#2095880 GW2 and the Trinity

Posted Skolops on 25 November 2012 - 10:13 PM

The British author GK Chesterton once asked his readers to consider the case of some men wandering through the deep jungle and stumbling upon a modern, western style house in their path.  Not really having any idea what this house was doing there, these people might decide to knock it down so as to clear the path and continue upon their way.  However, Chesterton insisted that this would be the wrong decision.  It would be absurdly irresponsible, he asserted, to raze this building without knowing why it was there in the first place.  

Perhaps the point was made more commonly known at the mouth of Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park as his character admonished John Hammond that he had been so concerned with whether or not he could clone dinosaurs that he never considered whether or not he should do so.

The "trinity," as it's been called, has been around MMOs since MMOs have been around, and in the zeal to eliminate it many have failed to consider that if it has been so common, there must be a reason.  It is simply not likely to be the case that its near universal presence is simply a result of the influence from Everquest, WoW, or any other game.  After all, there are simply an enormous variety of game designs and mechanics in any number of genres.  That the MMO genre would have simply remained so stagnant were there other options available seems improbable at best.

I think, ultimately, that this system has existed for so long because of the intrinsic nature of combat itself.  Any time any two entities battle (be it in video games or even real life) there are three and only three - no more and no less - basic things that can happen: The first entity can cause harm to the second, the first entity can be harmed by the second, and the harm done to one or the other could be alleviated by some means.  There is no way around this inherent aspect of combat.  It is, in large part, what in fact defines combat.If one wishes to make a game where either two players or a player and an AI fight, there exists the possibility of doing damage, of receiving damage, and of healing damage.  

All the "trinity" is, is a set of roles concerned with doing each of these three things as well as possible.  In video games as in life, the act of striving for the greatest success leads to a consolidation of resources.  We don't have firefighter-doctors, because a person who has invested in learning and practicing the arts of medicine and firefighting would be worse at either of them than another person who has invested all of his resources into any one of the two.  Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but as always those exceptions simply prove the rule.

The point here is that in eliminating the trinity system, all GW2 has done is made all characters less efficient at dealing, receiving, and healing damage.  An class which is able to simultaneously heal, tank, and damage must either be inadequate at all three, or be so strong by virtue of its abilities at all three as to make combat meaningless.  The reason that this system simply doesn't seem to have worked as well as many had hoped is because, while the classes themselves are all able to do each of the three roles to some degree, the enemy characters are still dealing damage as do all opponents in combat, and they therefore still follow the basic rules of combat.  

In the end, I think that one of the reasons that so many find this game boring is because given their greater personal skill and the utility of their classes at all three roles, their characters are too strong, or because given their lesser personal skill and the lack of efficient specialization for their class, their character feels too weak or the world too strong.

#2101555 After playing GW2, I decided I'd prefer a sub fee over any cash shop

Posted DuskWolf on 29 November 2012 - 08:06 PM

I don't think this proves what you think it proves at all, OP.

What this proves is that predatorial, exploitative, insidious business models can exist in both pay-to-own and subscription models. What we have to watch out for in the future isn't the financial model, but whether any of the people involved have acted like sharks. I know I won't trust an NCsoft product ever again. Blade & Soul, WildStar, and any future titles are all off my list solely because they're NCsoft. With NCsoft being obviously owned by Nexon at this point, it's clear that future games will only be more predatory, not less.

And I'm not the kind of sheep who'll roll over and take bad punishment up the butt. I actually respect myself enough to not stand for that. So NCsoft isn't getting any more of my money. So long, ArenaNet. It was nice knowing you when you were you. Back when you were the ArenaNet that put together the likes of Prophecies, when you actually believed in your passions, rather than the shameless construct of exploitation you've become today.

#2088290 Did they fix the awful performance?

Posted The Comfy Chair on 19 November 2012 - 09:08 PM

Short answer: No
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

#2097708 AMA Post-Mortem Discussion, What You Got Out of It

Posted DuskWolf on 27 November 2012 - 04:33 AM

View Postparadiselight, on 27 November 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

I'm going to keep quoting this wonderful post so that people understand why we are upset.
Why The Stat Cap Is So Important
That is a fairly remarkable post, and there's much I agree with in it.

He was being diplomatic regarding vertical progression, though. I feel that vertical progression is for the young, those who've forgotten how nice it is to reach a culmination. The power plateau is that culmination, and vertical progression is the antithesis of it. I see the power plateau as reaching the last chapter of a really good book. You can then read it again, or go back and casually paw through the pages of your favourite chapters.

If you introduce vertical progression, it's like... having the last chapter of a book dangled in front of your nose. But you have to read the previous chapter 20 times in order to 'earn' it. Then when you get that one, it isn't really the last chapter, it's a bunch of dramatic padding. You feel short-changed and you decide to put in the grinding time to get the next chapter, hoping that one is the ending. Eventually, you do enough of this that you condition yourself to believe that doing this is okay, that just being given a good ending to the book is contrary to what you'd believe is fun.

I'd say that vertical progression is a cancer to game design for that reason, due to endlessly moving goal posts. You can never reach the power plateau and then go and explore all the nooks and crannies of the game at your leisure because you haven't reached the end. You haven't hit that power plateau. And as that power plateau is pushed ever further and further away, and future 'chapters' (future content) is gated behind the endless grinding required to get in, you lose interest.

That's the problem, vertical progression eventually and inevitably leads to gated content. ArenaNet have pretty much told me at this point that they're going to get to a point where there's going to be a lot of gated content that I either have to pay money for gems to enter (likely as well as buying the expansion pack), or I have to grind grind grind my way there. I don't think that's fun. I have a clear idea of fun and that's not it. To me, that seems like a cancer that's eroding good game design amongst MMOs. There should be a power plateau, an end point. All good games have that.

Otherwise it's an incomplete experience. And nothing bothers me more than that.

Furthermore, contrary to the post, there are MMOs out there which actually do have a power plateau, and I enjoy them. Guild Wars 1, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, and so on. Now what this means is that I've dumped GW2 in favour of other games, because I don't want to be chasing goalposts. I want to be able to play the game leisurely. And in my opinion, if you haven't hit the power plateau, the game does punish you with cheap mechanics (like one-shots which are caused purely by a foe's numbers being better than your numbers).

Maybe if GW2 wasn't so obsessed with the notion of my numbers versus those of my foes and was actually a more skill based game (like, say, Mass Effect 3's multi-player), then perhaps the power-plateau wouldn't be necessary. But in a game that fetishises stats to such a profound degree, GW2 needs that power plateau. We were promised that power plateau, that end to vertical progression. That was a lie. Almost hoping someone will have up for that, to be honest, because by saying that they're including vertical progression now, the promise of a power plateau was a total lie.

The post makes a great case for why GW2 needs a power plateau.

But what game doesn't have a power plateau and does decide everything by numbers? Oh, that's right. WoW. Weren't we here because we didn't want to play WoW?

#2094907 Hey Ascended Haters, What's Your First Ascended Item?

Posted TGIFrisbie on 24 November 2012 - 11:30 PM

Torchlight 2.

#2090458 Hello Grind, fancy meeting you here...

Posted Dahk on 21 November 2012 - 05:19 AM

So, a Vial of Condensed Mists Essence dropped for me today.  My first thought was "Awesome! I can make an ascended item!"

...until I looked closer at the mat cost.  Potent bloods are almost 25 silver each and I need 250 of them.  And that's before even counting the ectos.

Now, to give you some background, I don't get a ton of playtime.  Between my family and my job, I don't get to put in nearly as many hours as I was able to do back in my college years, but that's why I came to GW2.  I played GW1 back in the day and I was really looking forward to a game where I can jump in and be judged by how well I played, not how long I played.

After hearing ArenaNet's manifesto on the game, I thought that's what I would find.

And it was.

Until this latest patch.  

I know to a lot of other people, this mat cost is nothing, but it's sad that it feels like I can't play MMOs and still be competitive anymore.

#2008664 Casual, End Game, Grind, Tilapia, and You: A story of Friends

Posted MFGrady on 10 October 2012 - 04:07 PM


"This game is for casuals, It's too grindy, this Tilapia is too wet".

These are the things I see on this forum, and hell, even on the official forums. If you ask anyone who spouts such non-sequiturs, they more than often have nothing to say but "lol ur a fanboy".

So what is Causal and Hardcore?

General consensus is that a casual player is someone who is generally less skilled and do not min/max or care about the nuances of the meta-game of ANY GAME. Whereas a hardcore player is someone who tries to find the most efficient way to play the game and tend to be more knowledgeable and better skilled than causal players.

This couldn't be anymore wrong.

A casual player is simply someone who does not dedicate as much time your average player, and a hardcore player is someone who dedicates more time than your average player.

What does this mean?

Gaming performance has two components Time investment and skill/mechanical factor. A person with more time investment knows more about the nuances of the game and have honed yourself to be the best as you can. Whether it is Street Fighter and knowing how to frame cancel/interrupt, or Pacman and knowing what the Ghost AI is like before/after running through tunnels, simply playing the game more than someone else will give you an advantage over them. Player performance is also determined by a skill/mechanical factor, where your reaction time and reflexes must be honed to take advantage of the mechanical component of the game. The limiting factor of this relationship in most games is the mechanical component: there comes a point where no matter what you do/think, there's nothing the game can do to translate that into a performance advantage.

Games themselves need some level of performance and competition. Even Co-op games require a level of performance, because your ability to play can effect the enjoyment of others, and human beings REQUIRE that in a game. Every gamer at some point has kicked ass in a single player game and wanted to show the world (Just look at all the "Let's Play" Youtube videos). All games, no matter how simplistic or complicated, are designed with different levels of performance in mind.

RPGs by design have always taken the skill/mechanical factor out of the equation and focused solely on time investment. You know mob strengths/weaknesses, you have more skills, better equipment and higher leveled characters. This is the same for MMORPGs, except with a skill/mechanical factor added, albeit a small one due to latency. For the most part, anyone who can operate a mouse and keyboard can play an MMORPG, but Time investment is still the limiting factor.

So a hardcore MMORPG player is simply a person with more time to invest in the game. They will have access to more skills, more resources, higher level, and more knowledge of the game. To do this in an MMORPG, you had to play for hours on end to farm, meet people, do group content, level up, and get equipment. Games ilke EQ and FFXI had such a great time investment factor that it required hours upon hours of time continuous time investment (4 hour exp parties anyone?) in order to reach minimum performance.

With the advent of WoW, the time investment necessary to gain this has shifted dramatically. Time investment in WoW does not become a performance factor until the end game. You could log on for half an hour and play and make progress, which in other MMORPGs was the amount of time necessary simply to form a party to attempt to do ANYTHING. However, Upon hitting max level, the time investment rears its ugly head and becomes a HUGE factor in determining player performance in the form of gear. People with end game gear are simply stronger than people without it, and some content requires a certain level of performance to complete.

What does this have to do with Guild Wars 2?
So people call Guild Wars 2 a casual game. They are correct.

What does that mean?

It means that Guild Wars 2 is not a game where your performance is primarily determined by your time investment. The strongest gear does not take large time investment and only provides a 13% increase in statistical performance. So someone who plays for 8 hours straight will not see much of an advantage over someone who plays for 30 minutes occasionally.

This does not mean that Guild Wars 2 lacks a performance factor. While Guild Wars 2 isn't a super twitch game, it has a much greater skill/mechanical factor than your average MMORPG.  Having a limited skill bar but a large number of skills for each player to choose from makes combat a balance of proactive and reactive decision making. Dodging allows you to mitigate damage based purely on reaction time. Players have access to all possible skills at level 30 minimum as well, making leveling from 30-80 all about honing ones use at those skills.

In competitive PvP, all players have equal gear from the get go, so time investment in PVP is based solely on knowledge and experience and not resources gained.

End Game

So we've determined that time investment in MMORPGs is generally the determining factor for performance. In a world where time = money, the average human being wants to make the best use of their time. So if one needs to invest time in a MMORPG to increase their performance, they need to make sure that the time the spend gives them the most lucrative reward.

In MMORPGs all things are not equal. In order to display progression, the value of rewards increase with level and difficulty, so higher level characters who do the most difficult content are promised higher level rewards. That being said, high level content will give more lucrative rewards than doing low level content which requires the same time investment. So in order to make a more efficient time invest in the game, you would realistically spend more time partaking in the most rewarding and difficult content in the game. In the Average MMO, this is your end game content.

What does this have to do with Guild Wars?

ANET tell us that the entire game is the end game. How is this possible? Obviously the max level content gives more rewards than lower level content. There is no disputing this. But in the Average MMO, when you out level content, you get NO REWARD. Other than low level enemy drops, high level character cannot gain experience from low level content and in some games, drop rate and resources are reduced dramatically and generally do give little to nothing which can contribute to your performance progression (Read: end game gear)

In Guild Wars 2, you can still get adequate experience and resources from lower level content Though it is not as much as if doing level appropriate content, it still will contribute to end game rewards. Level 35 and up dungeons give tokens and gold which can be used for exotic gear. Events give money and karma which can be used for exotic gear. None of these require you to be level 80 in order to start partaking in, and none of it requires the most powerful gear to complete. So when they say "the entire game is end game" it means that everything you do will affect your performance progression.

So we know that MMORPGs require time investment for performance, and that End Game content provides the most rewards for the amount of time spent and require the highest player performance to complete. So what would a smart person do? They will partake in the most reward content over and over until their time investment pays off!

Well, everyone knows that doing the same thing over and over and over gets boring and tedious. We refer to this as a grind. The closest definition for the word grind as a noun is "A laborious task, routine, or study". The closest definition for the word grind as a verb is "To produce mechanically or without inspiration".

So in an MMORPG, your grind could be a number of things. It can be your activities itself, such as doing raids, dungeons or quests, or it can be how you approach those activities, such as circling a zone from point to point, farming the same mobs and picking the same resources.

Why is Guild Wars 2 so grindy?

Guild Wars 2 can be a grind because of the limited amount of content that is at max level. Frost Sound Gorge and the Orr zones are the most rewarding zones with gathering resources and event rewards, so without variety in the most rewarding content, the content gets repetitive and laborious. The events in said areas are pretty much go from point a to point and kill everything that is in red. If a player wishes to get the most efficient time investment, they will spend all of their time in these zones.


Tilapia is a fresh water fish and is widely available. It is a versatile fish that can be baked, broiled, grilled, sauteed, but sometimes it can be a little moist.

I personally recommend not doing dry rubs on tilapia, especially when grilling, as it tends to trap in most of the moisture. I recommend a nice citrus marinade to take advantage of the naturally moisture of this fresh water delight, allowing it to cook evenly.

Broiled Tilapia with Asparagus. - Serves 2

4 tilapia filets
1/2 cup of lemon juice
2 tbsp spoons of olive oil
1 tsp garlic powder
1 tsp black pepper
1 tsp seasoning salt
2 garlic cloves, whole
1 dozen asparagus spears.

Preheat oven to 350 degrees F
Mix the lemon juice, olive oil, black pepper, garlic pepper, and seasoning salt in a sealable plastic bag and allow to marinate for at least 30 minutes

Place 4 cups of water and the garlic cloves into a pot and bring water to a boil
Blanch the Asparagus in boiling water and remove both the garlic and asparagus
Mince the and separate each garlic clov
Place 2 Tilapia filets and half of the marinade into a foil wrap and top with 6 asparagus and one minced garlic
Cook in pre heated oven for 30 minutes or until marinade has mostly evaporated.
Serve with potatoes or wild rice pilaf

We have determined that your time investment in Guild Wars 2 is not a large determining factor in your performance. If you spend 8 hours on average than another player, the most you can get over them performance wise is a whopping 13% statistical advantage, ONLY in PVE and WvW.

In PvE, a fully exotic Guardian with Vit/Toughness can STILL get one shot if they don't react in time to enemy attacks. In WvW, a single person, even in full exotics, cannot take on a keep of enemies alone.

So What the hell are we getting at here?

So we know that as far as Time Investment, the cap on return as far as individual player performance is 13%, and that even this is not required to complete any content.

So a pose a question to you all.

Why do you wish to maximize your time investment in Guild Wars 2?

Guild Wars 2 is a casual MMO. This does not mean the game is easy, and it does not mean it is a throw away game. It simply means that Guild Wars 2 is not a game where you will not get a noticeable return from a huge time investment. You can grind all you want, but you neither need to or have to. Even more so, you'll get less of an experience from the game by doing so.

When people tell you that when you rush through the game and grind that you are playing it wrong, they are saying you're missing the point of the game. This game is more of a sandbox game than it is an on-rails theme park game. Imagine playing GTA or Skyrim by only doing the main storyline. Can we not agree that these games are boring without their side quests?

Sure, we can agree that all of the events, no matter what zone, is more of the same, so doing events in Gendarren Fields is no different than events in Mount Maelstorm. But whats the difference between healing as a Shaman in ICC than it is in SLAB? What's the difference between fighting Talbot in the lost city than it is fighting the goons in the bar in the Prologue? What's the difference between fighting Magus than it is fighting Yakra XIII? What's the difference between shooting noobs on Blood Gulch than it is in Assembly?

Guild Wars 2 is no different. It's a game that you play for fun. Sure being competitive and the best as you can is fun and rewarding (that's why I play), but Guild Wars 2 is simply not a game where you pump hours of hours of play time for a performance advantage.


  • Guild Wars 2 is a casual game by design
  • Casual games are not automatically simplistic games
  • Grinding the same content over and over does not give you a performance advantage
  • Don't dry rub your tilapia

#1939439 Never have I felt so desperate as a warrior in my life

Posted Shalina on 17 September 2012 - 07:50 AM

I saw that in another thread:

Posted Image

Yep... Explains everything. :lol:

#1975855 Revealed - Redundant Thief mechanic

Posted Baron von Scrufflebutt on 28 September 2012 - 05:25 AM

Delete stealth, thank you very much.

Oh crap, this really seems to be a PvE RP thread. My bad for responding below, I've deleted my post.
You have fun now!

#1981989 Classes need balance the amazing one-shot thread

Posted Skolops on 30 September 2012 - 06:13 PM

People need to stop with this nonsense that the fact that you can dodge makes it OK for an attack to do 100% of someone's HP in a single hit.  This isn't even a class balance issue - its a problem of overall game balance.  It shouldn't be possible and it ruins the game.

I don't even think its necessary to go into all the reasons why "dodge!" is a stupid response, but I will anyways.  First of all, the game is not about 1v1s.  It's about multiplayer battles of various sorts, and so no, you're not always going to be able to dodge everything or even see everything that you ought to dodge coming your way.  Of course, this has been true in MMOs for a long time, but without the 75 - 100%+ HP hits.  If someone can get a good hit on you when you aren't expecting it, good for them.  When someone can 1 shot you or take 2/3 of your HP in one hit just because you aren't expecting it, that's absurd and just isn't either fun or reliant in these least on skill.  Heck, it even takes away from the dodge mechanic itself because, well, now that you're dead you're not going to be doding very much, now are you?  

Second, its really not that hard to immobilize or stun someone before landing one of these hits - especially in a multiplayer fight where they may have already had to spend any CC breaks they have.  

I could go on but its not really worth it.  I like this game, but honestly anyone who thinks this isn't a problem has got to be in denial or just practicing fanboyism. It needs to be fixed.

#1967553 How to build a Guardian properly.

Posted ShocknAwe on 25 September 2012 - 04:28 PM

View PostBreck, on 25 September 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Also, building around Consecrations and Spirit Bow isn't that great for dungeons considering the long cooldowns and the fact that most of the time they get wasted because people end up running away from them.

Get better teammates.

#1960785 Harathi Hinterlands Group Event Boss

Posted Akula on 23 September 2012 - 01:35 PM

Or the real problem is that people just love to jump on bandwagons and believe everything they're told!
Here's a video showing what happens if you DON'T kill the hands:

More loot, right...
Now, since there are so many people claiming to have fought that "huge" elemental, I'd really love to see just one showing any kind of evidence like this video or even just a screenshot.

#1918973 Game addiction, or lack thereof.

Posted Pysgasm on 11 September 2012 - 07:40 PM

Meh I'm level 80 and my biggest debate is trying to prioritize my time to get done the things I want to get done. Being a full time worker/husband (even though my wife is pretty generous with my computer time) I simply don't have enough hours in the day. I want to farm mats, I want to farm karma, I want to do SPvP, I want to do WvW, I want to get my exploration done, I want to run through the jumping puzzles I haven't done, etc. Then I finally get logged in after work, get side tracked, and rarely complete anything I originally intended to prioritize.

If I have any complaint its that I grew up and got more responsibilities. I wish I could go back to my highschool days and 48 hour nosleep gaming marathons. I still do occasionally but it means buying my wife a $500+ round trip ticket to go see her mom.

#1926242 Arenanet has scared it's player base?

Posted Aaren on 13 September 2012 - 11:38 AM

Nah. Most people who get banned do something that clearly is against the rules. They then come crying to the forums, making themselves look innocent while Arenanet is the big bad wolf. It's mostly BS.

#1911645 Guild Wars 2, Two sides of the Same Coin

Posted XPhiler on 10 September 2012 - 02:59 PM

I've been reading a ton of posts here on GW2 and sometimes its hard to understand if two people are really actually talking about the same game due to completely opposite claims.

Some people say GW2 is overhyped and is really a bad game while others say that Arenanet Delivered everything they promised. Each side acuses the others of begin Fanboys of GW2 or Fanboys of other games depending on which side you're on. After participating in various threads I think it all falls down to perception,How people play the game can really make one see the same thing in completely opposite ways. Those who say GW2 is amazing are right but those who say its nothing out of the ordinary are also right. Let me start by explaining the point of view of those who like the game, in their views:

Guild wars 2 is an amazing game that

A: Delivers an amazing experiance if you like story and lore
B: Avoids many of the repetition that exist in other MMOs
C: Allows you to play your character in anyway you want
D: Provides you with a rich world to explore
E: Immerses you in so much richness and details that it will blow your mind

But there are catches for this to be true you need to be patient enough that you have to be willing to reach your goals in a fun way rather then the quickest way possible and most importantly you need to be ready to stop and smell the roses.

On the other hand for people who arent willing to slow down, Guild Wars 2 is just like any other MMOs with possibly some of the features players like missing because the game is really not designed to be played with a competitve edge mind set and I am not saying this a crutique, if thats how you enjoy playing that is how you enjoy playing I am not here to tell you how to play but your experience will be different to someone who plays it like the game is meant to be played.

I think this is what has caused this disparity in opinion more then anything else.

Let me elaborate.

In most other MMOs the first thing you do is rush to Max Level and you do that using the path of least resistance. What this translates into when playing GW2 is probably more frastration then enjoyment. Keep reading I will give specific examples of all I mention, yes this is going to be one long post. If you're looking for progression in the sense that you're just looking to get stronger that coupled with trying to get there as quickly as possible will result in one not finding anything to do once they reach max level and worst yet that coupled with what will likely seem as an ordinary game while leveling up will make it very hard to justify to yourself why you should keep playing.

But how can it be that two people have such a completely different and opposite experiance. Let me quote the usual dynamic event I quote: It starts with a treasure hunter who leaves his home to walk to the beach in order to seek artifacts he then intends to sell. He starts by asking the players to help him grab Dwarven artifacts from the bottom of the sea. After he gets a large enough shipment he walks back to his home where he meets his fense. The fense checks out the artifacts and finds one that troubles him. Pirates show up and try to get the artifacts. The players will hopefully push them back and the two talk some more and decide that this one troublesome artifacts needs to be dealt with, luckily the fense knows this guy that should know how to deal with these things so they agree and transport is called. Transport is provided by 2 asura and their dolyak. There is some trouble along the way but finally you get there. The asura has sensed that the troublesome artifact is in fact a summoning stone, he offers to help out as he has experiance with this sort of thing so you all walk out to a field, after a short ritual whatever is in the summoning stone is summoned and players have to kill this nasty demon that has now been unleashed into the world.

Or well thats how the dynamic Event chain plays out but what does someone who's rushing to end level ends up most likely seeing? It depends at what stage they are passing by really. If they experiance the 1st stage all they will experiance is collect these artifacts from the bottom of the sea, kill some annoying skate or pirates that happen to be close to the artifacts and quickly move on seeking some new event to do. If they pass by the second stage they exeperiance kill X amount of pirates. If they come by the 3rd stage its a kill these wolves and worms while walking next to this dolyak and 2 asura, perhaps ressurect one of them if they fall in the fight. If they pass by in the last stage, kill this somewhat challening mini boss. Thats it. They will not stop and talk to the various NPCs they will never know the story or context of each single Dynamic Event they participate and they're ultimately right, without the story or the context Each dynamic event plays out more or less the same and not only the same like other Dynamic Events but the same like every quest in every MMO when you dont bother to read the story behind it. After all what can you do in any quest or dynamic event? Kill, interact or move from point A to point B, its the story and the presentation that makes the difference.

Now conversly how will someone who wants to enjoy the game experiance this event? first things first they're likely to pass by when the event hasnt start or perhaps if they catch it in the middle they will simply look for the start and redo the missing part later on, in any case it will start with a bit of a wait most likely until the event starts. Thats building anticipation, hmm this npc told me he like artificats, this sounds like it could end up badly but i wonder how. That anticipation is likely to enhance your enjoyment ultimately. Then you get started and you get to admire the great attention to detail. Fense calls for transport by actually whistling, you get to see this pigeon fly in, land on the ground, the fense walking to it, knelling next to it as to attach the note, the pigeon flying away and 30 seconds to a minute later this 2 asura with the dolyak walking in. You get to hear funny dialog as the asura and the Norn negotiate for the transport. You get to learn that Asura used to tinker with summoning stones and that that tinkering eventually resulted in a his lab being blown up. This is something that some people enjoy a lot and makes the game come alive for them!

But what's more you get to compare how this would have played out in a traditional MMO. In such an MMO You're likely to get a quest that said hey I collect artifacts go kill pirates and steal their artifacts for me. Then you'd get a quest telling you to go kill another 10 pirates to show them who's boss and ensure they dont try taking the artifacts back. And then you'd be told to take the artifact to this person who'd finally tells you to kill this elite mob that would spawn right next to you.

So lets be honest people cant we see the differences clearly right there? Those who like to rush through their game and do events as they come across them rather then seeking them out will do event without having any story and context and ultimately they really end up experiancing what any other MMO does and nothing more, they still just killed pirates and skate to get the artifacts, they still just killed this miniboss etc.. But lets be also honest on the other side of the coin, those who love to experiance the story and the lore, those who are patient enough to do this from start till end get to experiance all that Arenanet promised. This doesnt feel like kill a bunch of wolves in order to get from point a to point b, it feels closer to an interactive movie then anything else! the world truely feels alive! Both experiance are 100% true in my opinion, in depends on how you went through each of them.

Its also not just Dynamic Events, lets take map exploration for example. Someone who just is trying to get to max level quickly is going to do Hearts, skill challenges, POI and all the stuff necessary to get map complition just like anyone else. But doing those challenges just for the sake of getting the XP will alas make them become mechanical. There is no wonder in traveling to a POI, see the name of the area pop out, open the map, make a mental note where the direction of the next POI is and rush in that direction. People who do that and claim there is no real exploration are right ! But what does someone who loves exploration Experiance when doing the same task? So one of the POIs you find in Harathi Hinterlands is the Martyr's tomb. Well okey good to know but who's the Martyr? An investigation around the area will uncover an NPC that will tell you the tomb is allegedly that of Saul D'Alessio and import figure from GW1, The Martyr's tomb already suddenly becomes a lot more interesting and something that has to be explored in detail cause such an important figure might hold further secrets that have to be discovered by the real explorer. Next to his tomb there is the ruin of a statue dedicated to the godess dwayna. Once again thats some nostalgy for players of GW1 but more then that if you interact with the statue you're told that you can see the impressions on the ground where thousands of people used to kneel. There is also a candle you can interact with and if you light the candle and actually make your character kneel the avatar of dwayna will appear to you. It will tell you more about Saul D'Alessio and a particularly fanatical guardian that even in dead still guards the tomb. She will tell you that calling out his name will have him appear to you and that he needs to be stopped as he indiscriminately kills anyone living who happens by. You go back to the same place where you unlocked the martyr's way point and if you interact again with the tomb that previously did nothing, you get this mini boss fight and associated dynamic event that not only rewards you with the usual XP, gold and karma but also drops down a chest!

See the different experiance, someone who rushes will just experiance a sound effect, some XP, a few fight with the surrounding ghosts and nothing else. Can we really blame them if they claim Such an experiance is nothing special? On the other hand however someone who is in it to explore and stops to smell the roses will get Lore, story, XP, karma , coin and Items as well as the satisfaction of having discovered a hidden secret.

Once again for some it will be just like any other MMO for others the amazing experiance of living world they were promised.

So people please once and for all lets stop calling each other names and be more understanding of one another point of views. Its okey to argue points I am sure those who like to take the game slowly will correctly argue that those who rush need to slow down and those who like rushing will also correctly argue that the game isnt anything out of the ordinary for them and that slowing down isnt really a solution because they dont enjoy the wait that entails. Obviously you cant tell someone to play in a way they hate in order to enjoy the game, its not as simple as that for sure!

Diverse opinions are okey but people who like the game like the game for a reason, they are fans because they like the game and not the opposite, they dont simply like the game because they are fans!

Like wise even though for us that like taking the game slow, the game seems amazing and find it very hard to understand how others dont share our same opinion, playing it in some ways can really make it no different than many other MMOs on the market, its natural that such people would not understand how people can ever believe that Arenanet delivered on their promises because in their Eyes they didnt.

Lets all try to keep this in mind and avoid fighting each other and repeating the same arguments over and over again. Lets make sure reading this forum doesnt become grinding cause lately to me personally I started getting this feeling and I blame that on this disparity I talk about in this post. Each side think they're right and they think that by repeating their opinion they will finally get the other side to abandon what they view as bias and change thier ways. Unfortunitely its probably not as simple as that.