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Loperdos

Member Since 28 Sep 2012
Online Last Active Today, 01:08 AM

#2205231 An Introduction to S/D Builds and Play Styles [Guide]

Posted Phenn on Yesterday, 10:55 PM

Before Beginning


There have been a few questions on the forum here concerning builds for the S/D weapon set. I have assembled a few of the more common builds, and described the play style that best fits with both the build and with S/D.

These are not the only builds that “work” with S/D, and neither are these builds limited to the S/D weapon set. Also, the builds are not designed with absolute min/maxing in mind. Rather, the following offer a good mix of utility, survivability, damage, and (most important in my book) fun. My hope is to provide a resource for anyone wanting to pick up S/D, and needs a place to start.

An Introduction to Sword and Dagger


(Before I begin, I would like to thank Rachmani for his guide that both introduced me to S/D and provided the foundation of most of my experimentation with the weapon set once hitting 80. I suggest anyone looking for a good break down of S/D read through it. Much of what’s included here comes more or less from him.)

Despite is effectiveness in PvP, S/D has often been considered one of the weaker melee-range weapon sets in PvE. Unlike sets with Pistol Whip and Backstab, S/D has no one skill that dishes out spike damage. Its stealth skill is a crowd control, and its evade, up until recently, had major pathing issues.

That being said, S/D remains a very flexible weapon set—able to tackle, control, and damage multiple enemies at once. S/D has strong, inherent survivability skills, and synergizes well with several different trait lines and builds. Perhaps most importantly, you maintain S/D's base damage even when traiting for a different play style due to the hard-hitting AA. Changing builds and play styles is entirely for pacing and survival purposes.

That being said, S/D builds break down into two general categories: Stealth-based and Mobility-based. Again, this isn’t to say stealth-based builds aren’t mobile, or that mobility-based builds don’t stealth. Rather, each has its particular emphasis for survival.

On one final note, every build will take 30 points in Critical Strikes (CS). S/D is a DPS melee set, and the CS tree is far too important to not take a full 30. Trait choices are pretty straight-forward. CS III (Side Strike), CS X (Critical Haste), and CS XI (Executioner) all synergize well with S/D, but CS VI and IX can be situationally helpful.

The following builds will differ, then, in how they spend the remaining 40 points.

Stealth Builds


The Classic (Leveling Build): 0/30/25/15/0

Spoiler

The Hybrid: 0/30/20/20/0

Spoiler

Thoughts on the Stealth Builds:

The S/D weapon set synergizes well with stealth-heavy builds. You may have noticed, however, that I did not include a build that takes 30 points in SA. There is little benefit in the Grandmaster-tier SA traits, and the five points provide much more when used in Acro. Both the Classic build and the Hybrid take advantage of blind-on-stealth for survival while maintaining decent mobility through the Acro line.

I recommend anyone picking up S/D for the first time try on of these two builds to get a feel for the pace of S/D combat. If you’re used to the speed of D/D, the sword can leave you feeling awkward and vulnerable. These builds will help.

Mobility Builds


The Acrobat: 0/30/0/25/15

Spoiler

The Jumper: 10/30/0/0/30

Spoiler

Thoughts on the Mobility Builds:

The Acrobat and the Jumper builds offer a different S/D play style than the stealth builds. Their strengths lie in evasion and dodging, and simply not being there to take damage. These builds are faster-paced and more user-sensitive than the stealth-builds, but have the potential for a higher payout in the damage-realm. The traits offer good flexibility across weapon sets, and synergize well with varying on-swap sets.

Both of the mobility builds are less forgiving than the stealth-based builds, but can provide a very fun alternative. I recommend that anyone who wants to try something new or different give them a test-run.

Conclusion


There you have it! Four of the more common and tested S/D builds. As I said above, they aren’t meant to be the end-all-be-all of S/D, or even the thief class in general. But they offer a good place to start for anyone looking into picking up S/D for the first time, or wanting to try something new.

I encourage the other thief-users out there to give these builds a go, and let me know how you tweak them for your own play style. If additional builds rise out of these, or if I’ve missed an obvious variant, I’ll happily include them as well. Feel free to ping me in game, too: Phenn.5167.

(And thanks to Loperdos for working through the correctness of the comments/advice/descriptions!)


#2204128 Consortium is Nexon/NCSoft?

Posted Feathermoore on 20 May 2013 - 07:02 PM

Stop with the off topic rants please.


#2204082 Consortium is Nexon/NCSoft?

Posted MazingerZ on 20 May 2013 - 05:28 PM

View PostXunlai Agent, on 20 May 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

I am pretty stunned how many people that should all know better are determined to play into the hands of lordkrall and Gilles VI, if you want to discuss whether there is mandatory grind in GW 2 or not and how the system compares to Guild Wars 1 then please make a thread about it in the Tyrian Assembly stop hijacking this. They want it closed because they don't want these opinions expressed and you are helping them do it.

It's a common method on GW2's official forums as well (employed by the infamous Vayne) to basically derail the conversation so a mod can deem it going off-topic and locking it.

That being said, the links listed are very insightful.

Nexon and NCSoft do not have to have their hand at the helm of every ArenaNet decision.  They only have to state goals.  And if Mike O'Brien wants to keep his job, he'll do his best to meet them.  His entire career is based upon sustaining a model for maximum return for as long as possible.  It's not a game designed with a high skill ceiling, but instead to have a broad appeal, because attrition is the nature of MMOs and the broader your initial base is, the more money you gain over time and the longer the model can be sustained.  The KMMO cash shop model is just milking it at maximum efficiency.


#2204072 Consortium is Nexon/NCSoft?

Posted Xunlai Agent on 20 May 2013 - 05:04 PM

I am pretty stunned how many people that should all know better are determined to play into the hands of lordkrall and Gilles VI, if you want to discuss whether there is mandatory grind in GW 2 or not and how the system compares to Guild Wars 1 then please make a thread about it in the Tyrian Assembly stop hijacking this. They want it closed because they don't want these opinions expressed and you are helping them do it.

On Topic:
Here are the best links relating to the subject for those of you viewing the thread after it has been locked:
https://forum-en.gui...um-NCsoft-Nexon

http://www.reddit.co...spiracy_theory/

https://forum-en.gui...-for-Help/first


http://www.bizjourna...2/06/08/NY21443
http://www.mmorpg.co...exon-Investment


#2204024 Consortium is Nexon/NCSoft?

Posted Ritualist on 20 May 2013 - 03:12 PM

Like I said, the fact that you like a game does not mean it can not be grindy.
On top of that, there was a LOT of things wrong with GW1. Grind being one of them. (Although, as mentioned, it wasn't as bad as GW2 grind: GW1 had much less mandatory grind, and probably the same amount of optional grind as GW2.) But the important thing is that we defined those things as "wrong", as mistakes. And the problem with GW2 is that a lot of things that should be considered mistakes simply aren't: they are considered the game's building blocks.

Having said that, this probably isn't the thread to discuss this subject.


EDIT:
SY! was beyond good. You guys might have not used it, but that doesn't mean it's not one of the most insane skills ever. (Of course, we should mention that the skill maxed out at r10 and, if I am not mistaken, one of A.Net's last updates was to make PvE skills max out around half-way through the title, thus massively reducing the grind needed to be at max power. Still, the grind is still there.)


#2204005 Thief DAGGER/PISTOL (Not D/D, not S/P, not anything else) and Shortbow Build....

Posted Rachmani on 20 May 2013 - 02:42 PM

To add to that... I'd rather not be considered an authority. The same rules apply to everyone. Listen to what they say, try it out, think, and draw your own conclusions. Just like Soki said.


#2203821 Need some Advice (Playstyle+Experience, D/D in high fractals)

Posted Rachmani on 20 May 2013 - 03:16 AM

First of all, I'd advice you to trait differently. It appears to me as if you're low on health, but relatively high on toughness. This is a very dangerous combination. Some ranged mobs will target you because of low hp, some melee mobs because of "high" toughness.
Your toughness ain't even HIGH per se, but a group in which you're the only melee probably lacks a high toughness target anyway.

What I did was simple. I bought myself a soldier set and started to working on meleeing everything. You probably just need good dodge routines which need just two basic things. Good visual awareness, and good reflexes. You don't even need soldier armor, just some toughness so you aren't oneshot material until you're comfortable with D/D in that region of difficulty. With 1200-1250 in both vit & toughness should be fine 'til 38 something. Also, to make things easier for you, you should consider both 15 acrobatics & 20 Shadow Arts. The former greatly helps with dodges, the latter gives access to blind on stealth, which is a key element for relearning D/D in high fractals.

From looking at your build I have the feeling that you're trying to compensate soaking damage through regen and stuff. My experience tells me, however, that avoiding damage is key for a successful thief. Three things will help you on that:
Dodge, Blind & "not being there" aka good positioning.

Should you be interested I'll post a userfriendly melee build later on (don't have time right now) and explain a bit.


#2203848 Consortium is Nexon/NCSoft?

Posted draxynnic on 20 May 2013 - 05:48 AM

View PostLoperdos, on 17 May 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

I think that's part of the point. :)   The OP posted something that seems like it MAY be over the top and very tinfoil hat~ish, and its fun to get a laugh about these sorts of theories.  The problem is that while there is no solid evidence that this instance is true or false, there are enough coincidences that seem to point in a particular direction that it makes people start to wonder....
One would also need to consider is that if this is what's going on, ArenaNet would have to make sure it's at a level where NCSoft and Nexon can at least pretend they don't see what's going on. If it was something that was obvious enough to all that it wasn't even a little bit tinfoil-hatty, NCSoft would probably have to take action, and such action may involve firings.


#2203301 Thief DAGGER/PISTOL (Not D/D, not S/P, not anything else) and Shortbow Build....

Posted Rachmani on 18 May 2013 - 05:23 AM

View PostSoki, on 18 May 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

I don't have GW2 installed anymore.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at, though. I mention "dungeonmaster" because it's the typical measure a lot of people use for "Oh they must know their shit" - despite it just meaning that you've slogged through all the paths ANet's pushed out.

I'm glad you acknowledge that you may be too attached to S/D to see S/P's superiority. S/D can feel fun to leap around and feel like a swashbucklin' pirate - but for a player like me who is very result-focused, the lustre dies as soon as I see that the weapon set offers nothing in PvE.
That's a difference in playstyle and ways of enjoying the game. Neither is inherently better. GW2 is so loosely tuned that you can run any old incoherent build/gear set and pass most of the game's content without too much effort - but working out "The best" is how some players have fun - and when somebody tries arguing that X is better than Y, when Y is objectively better than X in all situations both would apply to, I feel like it'd be a disservice of me to not mention why Y is better.

What a pity. New Flankingstrike is good though, give it a try, should you reinstall. And try it instead of dodging through a mob. You lose literally no attacking time.

Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is that there is plenty of room to be successful - and by successful I mean "doing stuff without failing" - from tight groups and speedruns to not so speedy runs. The point is, with the exeption of speed, a lot can and does work. My own group has two rangers and we don't fail in fractals up to the currently possible lvl (i actually don't know wether you can exploit Jade Maw - we never tried it).

So why was I getting at you? Simply because you "stormed in" without giving whatever you said a proper context. We obviously have our "differences" in terms of playstyle or whether you always need a shortbow or not etc. but I'm surely not above admitting that my group doesn't have the best killspeed (guardian, warrior or ele, ranger, ranger, thief), for example. I'll also freely admit that I could never get a grip on S/P (and I consider myself to be really good with S/D) and never got it to work the same way S/D did.
So naturally I have my problems with "the better set", if that statement lacks said context - and if only because I adapted my build and my experience tells me otherwise. I am however free to admit, that that might only be me - that's why I stated above that every thief should try out all sets to find the one best suited for himself. If that happens to be S/P - perfect.
Will you have to switch weapons eventually in fractals? Absolutely.

In short, I have absolutely no problem with your statements, as long as you give them the personal context needed for all to understand where you're coming from and where your priorities lie. I don't find S/D useless in any form, personally, not even inferior to S/P but I it's more than fine for me if someone says "naaa... I favor Sokis view on this".

P.S Lyssa is a nice strategy for the champion, never considered it tbh. I tried him once - only to be supported by a group of friendly farmers or whatever you might want to call them at about 75% of its hp. Not sure if I would have killed it though. Maybe I'll try again.


#2203448 Consortium is Nexon/NCSoft?

Posted borovnica on 18 May 2013 - 04:34 PM

Guild Wars 1 was not an MMORPG, it was CORPG, or RPG with multiplayer elements, and let's not lie to people who didn't play GW1, after some time everyone started playing alone with their heroes. I remember how hard was to find group to do missions, since everyone had heroes and I didn't at that time.


#2203228 Consortium is Nexon/NCSoft?

Posted lmaonade on 18 May 2013 - 12:15 AM

View PostRitualist, on 17 May 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:


hah, I linked that page in a thread in november also, thread got locked, people called me a troll, but still relevant.

In fact, at the time I linked to it because I thought it was a funny piece and didn't really believe in what it said, but as of right now I definitely am believing it more and more

What I want to know is why is the Consortium (NCsoft) trying to kill the refugees (Anet) who got their home (philosophy) take away by the clutches of an evil organization the Flame Legion (Nexon), by turning the Southsun Cove (GW2) which is supposed to be a lush, vibrant, and natural environment (revolutionary game) into some kind of getaway resort for the rich (cash shop monger)?

why man why


#2203153 Thief DAGGER/PISTOL (Not D/D, not S/P, not anything else) and Shortbow Build....

Posted Phenn on 17 May 2013 - 08:30 PM

View PostSoki, on 17 May 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Mm--Still no.
The 3 is a crutch for proper dodging (which is easy as a Thief); might-when-dodge is better than Stealth-might-gain (due to the damage loss of going deep into Shadow Arts), and boon-removal - if it's pivotal to an encounter - is simply better done with a sigil than gimping your damage.

About rerolling for min/max: No. Thief utility warrents them in a group, if they're not bad.

Here's the thing:

1. S/D #3 may be a crutch for dodging, but so is SB #3, D/D #3, P/D #3, oh, and S/P #3. Any weapon skill that has an evade in it could be considered a "crutch" for dodging. (Mesmer's Blurred Frenzy is a crutch for dodging...ad nauseum) S/D #3 takes quite a bit more practice and timing to pull off due to animations and positioning. The logic that it's a crutch simply doesn't hold. Unless you're relying EXCLUSIVELY on FS to evade all the attacks, it's additionally beneficial. Period.

2. Traiting in the SA tree may suffer a damage loss IF you’re running D/D. But generally speaking, so long as you take 30 in CS you're doing fine in any other set outside of D/D, simply because using any set besides D/D for single target is a damage loss. Furthermore, Stat points should never be a motivation for taking any tree—ESPECIALLY the DA tree. The traits you'd pick up along with 200–300 power are laughably miserable compared to the survivability, utility, and team-benefiting mods you can take in SA. Not every build needs SA, granted, but it's by far more useful than DA. Additionally, I can maintain 8–10 stacks of might on my own with SA 25, but only 4–5 stacks with Acro II AND Meat-and-Truffle stew. Just sayin'.

3. I'm not sure that a boon-removal sigil is going to up your damage. Just by taking a Sigil of Nullification, you're losing Bloodlust stacks, +5% damage, +5% crit, or any number of far better damage-increases. Additionally, we're not talking boon-removal with LS. We're talking boon-steal. Marginally, different, but significant. As it stands a thief can, in a matter of seconds, stack huge amounts of might, fury, retaliation, and protection AND help out the team. There's no damage loss here. And you get keep your Sigil of Force.

Finally a note on S/P. Without mincing words, S/P is, perhaps, the set most antithetical to the whole concept of thief. No access to stealth. BP necessitates immobility (can’t survive if you ain’t in that circle), PW is a root—a ROOT—on a mobility-based class, and barely out-damages S/’s AA. In a S/P build, InfS is only useful for condition clearing, as you must stay in BP, and can’t interrupt PW. And to top it all off, you have to invest heavily in Initiative-regen.

I’ve said my bit, here. I fully recognize that S/D has limitations and excels in certain applications over others. Additionally, I realize that S/P can also have excellent use in certain applications. I’m just not going to sit back, however, when perfectly viable (and rather useful) weapon sets are dismissed out-of-hand.

----------------------------------------------------

Now, to Graham. When it comes to Traits in the CS line, III is great (you should be flanking always). CS I is far too unreliable to make useful universally—especially if you take the Signet of Agility (more later). Additionally, CS X is good (especially for quick bursts), and if you’re having trouble surviving, CS VI will help some.

As far as utilities are concerned, I almost always have Signet of Agility on my bar. Not only does it give a mad boost to Precision, but it’s also two extra dodges and a condition clear. Running 30/25/15, I’ll have one Deception skill on the bar (iHouse, BP, or ShadowStep), and two sigs. In dungeons Signet of Shadows isn’t needed (you don’t need the 25% run speed), and you can pick up something else there.

Finally, in open world soloing, Dagger Storm is so-so. Great for WvW zergs or tons of trash in dungeons, but Thieves Guild will give you more survivability and damage—especially against single targets.


#2202974 Consortium is Nexon/NCSoft?

Posted Coren on 17 May 2013 - 12:33 PM

If this is it... Lol ANet has some serious balls lol.


#2202793 Consortium is Nexon/NCSoft?

Posted Fernling306 on 17 May 2013 - 12:20 AM

Kudos to Anet if that is what it means. NCsoft is a terrible company and Nexon is even worse than them. I believe Anets reputation has been mostly ruined, and I would love to blame it on someone else.


#2201786 Most Overrated and Underrated skills

Posted Phenn on 14 May 2013 - 05:34 AM

View Postmatsif, on 14 May 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

overrated weapon skill - no contest hundred blades.  yeah it puts out nice damage but at the cost of rooting you in place, forcing your damage in 1 spot while you sit there unable to do anything if you want all the damage.  basically this skill alone lead to the warriors are the be all end all dps machines of the game, and if anet didn't make the damage numbers shown additive people would not think it is as good as it is.

This is my problem with Pistol Whip, which I'd label the most overrated thief skill. It does a tiny bit more damage that AA, roots, and has a tiny evade. Oh and it roots, did I say that? It roots. WHAT PART OF "MOBILE" DOES S/P NOT UNDERSTAND?