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LoperdosMember Since 28 Sep 2012
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Sanctum of Rall
Posted El Duderino on 16 December 2014 - 04:14 AM
Seems to me if people like the game, they don't need to be incentivized just to log in.
Posted NerfHerder on 16 December 2014 - 12:33 AM
Posted Mordakai on 11 December 2014 - 02:55 AM
And precisely because of that business model they have absolutely no obligation to keep up the bi-weekly rhythm over the holidays or even offer you something on top of their scheduled announcement such as this change to the daily achievement system.
If the kind of consumers who complained previously in this thread had indeed any saying, I'm fairly sure Anet wouldn't make a single buck with this game because said consumers keep on moaning about "how they don't financially support them till they make proper content" - which of course never happens because they are impossible to please. Empty consumers promises don't look very good on a financial report I'm afraid. They also do not make a company want to work overtime or involve them into decision-making processes.
Based on this research from April 2014, the average revenue per user is about 3.88$ - give or take a few. The important part to consider here is that because there is no actual sub, those players who actually do spend money on the game end up far far higher than this average, meaning they carry a whole bunch of those "complaining free-loaders" I've mentioned.
Since you brought up fairness, next time one complains about the games content or the perceived lack of such, said person might want to consider what his personal average spending per month is and how that stands in relation to what Anet should deliver to that person in return. We might just start seeing more constructive points in the future.
It's not just about content. Hell, I played GW1 for years with no meaningful updates.
But Anet is the one who promised "an expansions worth of content.". They are the ones who claimed we would be getting the same updates as a sub game. I didn't expect it until they promised it.
And I've spent well over $200 on this game expecting them to deliver. Now it's over 2 years in, and nothing to show for it but gimmicky LS segments.
Where are the major game-changing new professions, races, or at least weapons needed to breathe new life into this game?
Posted El Duderino on 10 December 2014 - 06:53 PM
Posted Baron von Scrufflebutt on 10 December 2014 - 06:24 PM
Posted Dahk on 05 September 2014 - 06:49 PM
Hopefully we see some meaningful addition in the future, but if there's not...well, EQ Next looks promising. =P
Posted draxynnic on 02 September 2014 - 05:24 AM
On the whole, I think they did a good job there. Not perfect - there are certainly gaps - but they're not ones that are particularly easy to fill. I've sketched out a few as mental exercises, but most either come out looking like an existing profession with the serial numbers filed off, or involve new mechanics that wouldn't necessarily be easy to implement. Note that back in the day I made pretty good predictions on both the mesmer and engineer - so while I'm still only one person, I've probably got a reasonably good handle on their thought processes there.
Continents, especially continents plural, I can accept the argument of the maps taking longer to make than GW1 maps. I'm not convinced the difference is so great as to be the difference between Factions and Nightfall on one hand, and Mad King's Labyrinth, the Wintersday stuff, Southsun, MF, Labyrinthine Cliffs, Queen's Pavilion, the two Aetherblade dungeons, Thaumanova fractal, Tower of Nightmares, Dry Top, Edge of the Mists, and assorted changes to existing maps on the other, but I can accept the argument there.
Skills and weapons, now... as I've said, development work that went into making the special effects for things like finishers and permanent harvesting tools could have gone into effects for new skills. Balancing would, of course, be an issue, but that may be a swing that goes both ways - from my observations some of the hardest professions to balance do seem to be the ones that have fewer options (because they tend to be very good at what they do well with those options, but take that away and they don't have much to fall back on), and giving them more options makes them less reliant on the style of any particular build.
Regarding what ArenaNet is doing with a 'tech debt': that might well be a reason, but as has been said before:
1) People will tend to judge based on the industry standard. Consider working at a job - an employer isn't going to have much sympathy for your special circumstances if you're underperforming, unless you give them good reason to believe that those circumstances are something you can get past and then your performance will pick up. And ultimately, a business is paid by its paying customers. If ArenaNet is underperforming because of something they expect to get around, then they should give us reason to expect that they will at some stage get past it and resume acceptable performance.
2) Unless given reason to do otherwise, people will base their expectations of future performance from past performance. This is partly where all the GW1 comparisons come from, which may be a spot where past exceptional performance is biting them on the foot. Now, though, most players are basing their future expectations for GW2 on the past two years, and a lot of people are growing sceptical that ArenaNet has any long-term plans for the game to speak of. If ArenaNet doesn't want people to base their expectations for the future of the game on the past - they have to give them a reason to.
Both these points, as you'll note, come back to the culture of secrecy. Now, I can appreciate that having people screaming on your forum about broken promises can be uncomfortable if you promise something and then you can't deliver... but in practical terms, I don't think such situations are really making anything worse except in giving the people who are unhappy something specific to voice their discontent over. The person who complains that something that was promised and that they were looking forward to got delayed or canned entirely is a person who may already have left under the culture of secrecy when they were given no rational reason to believe that what they expected was on the horizon at all.
At the moment, we have no rational reason to expect anything more than more of the same. No new races, no significant changes in skills, no new content beyond the rate we're currently getting. We may be wrong, but we have no reason to think otherwise.
For the record, my perspective is quite different to Poe's: most of my play has been either solo or as part of small guilds that have traditionally been made of people who knew each other from this or other communities - thus, usually relying on a core of players who play regularly and are willing to help each other out to achieve objectives. Such small guilds, however, tend to be quite sensitive to having people drop out of the game and losing critical mass as a result (particularly when people are in different timezones)... and this is something that's definitely been happening. This means that, to an extent, I'm actually content with the material that's been released so far being mostly soloable or open-world content - because my guilds have more or less fallen apart, this means I can still experience the story when I might not be able to if dungeon parties were required.
However, I'd really like it if GW2 was able to actually retain players like GW1 did, so that at least one of those guilds can recover and/or the next one I'm involved in doesn't have the specter looming over it of losing critical mass like previous ones did.
And, for the record, among many of those, I'm known as the person - in some cases the one person - who actually still has some faith whatsoever in the company. I'm here arguing because I haven't reached the point of not caring any more - I know several people who haven't. So that's a context to keep in mind - the people who are still here to argue are mostly those who do still want the company to succeed. The doom-and-gloomers declared their prophecy fulfilled and left months ago.
As I noted last page: one of you has set a date at which they'd start to get discontented, so the main difference between us is really a matter of where we set the time limit. Give it six, twelve, eighteen months, and you may well be in the position we are. How many people will then be in the same position you are now?
Posted Phineas Poe on 02 September 2014 - 04:24 AM
Yes, the LS1 began with hammering signposts and ended with an open-world group-coordinated raid boss. When the LS2 was announced, we expected that it would build on the content we saw from January through March (Wurm, Marionette, Scarlet). We did not expect that we would be metaphorically going back to fixing signs, especially since they took four months to prepare for this season.
When taking under consideration what they got done on two month cycles, we did expect a couple new zones and some new dungeons or a raid boss. Of course, we all expected the first few releases to be a slow burn that would pick up, but we are now halfway through S2 of the Living Story and we are no closer to fighting Mordremoth than we were back in March. We have one zone, similar to Southsun, where there is nothing to do there unless you care about the zone-specific rewards. And while everyone is sitting and waiting for more new zones and possibly a dungeon or two, they make us spend an entire month running around cities and talking to NPCs instead.
And our outrage is "unreasonable?" I get it that you haven't really been around much the past year, but as someone that has, and as someone that has been relatively active this is the poorest showing of support for this game I've seen. They've taken more months off from PvE updates than they have actually delivering content, and what content they've put out has been woefully inferior to what we got at the beginning of 2014. Now balance patches only occur every six months, and all WvW is getting in this feature pack are new traps and siege golem mastery.
A very stark trend is developing, and it's not a very pretty one.
It was acceptable that the LS1 was slow to start in large part due to the fact that the game was still new. Fractals and Guild Missions were what took up the majority of our time, and a lot of players still hadn't gotten a legendary yet. A lot of the game's content was still fresh, and most players hadn't gotten everything they'd wanted yet out of WvW and PvP. It was acceptable for the LS1 to suck to start because there was enough to do in the game even without it; and it's why despite the fact that most releases of the LS1 were mediocre that people like myself still regularly played the game three to four days a week.
But dungeons, fractals, and guild missions aren't fresh anymore. WvW and PvP haven't gotten any real hardcore overhauls outside of WXP and rank point changes. And what new content we've gotten has pushed those gametypes in the wrong direction (Skyhammer, Edge of the Mists). It's also important to mention that there wasn't a four month gap where we got literally nothing at any point before the LS1 began.
We expected that the feature pack was going to implement some of these overhauls just in the same way the April feature pack redefined the game in a lot of ways (wardrobe, account-wide legendaries and WXP, etc.) but instead we're getting commander colors and a crafting UI overhaul. Yay?
I'm really glad we're taking another break for that.
You said the Dragonsreach was the type of content you've always wanted, but it was by and far one of their worst content releases to date, LS1 included. Part 1 was nothing but a series of conversation pieces separated by open world fetch/collection quests. The end boss fight was even a recycled boss fight from the starting charr instance. Part 2 was hardly any better being mostly dialogue. The end boss fight, granted, was enjoyable, but ten minutes of quality content is hardly something we should be happy about.
There was absolutely no reason why the Dragonsreach should have been spread out over a month anyway.
You can't compare the rate at which content was shipped in season one with the rate at which content is being shipped during season 2 without knowing the development process which brings me back to my main point.
Actually, we did know the development process. They were very forthcoming about that and they still are. The LS1 had 4 teams of 20ish people that were developing content on two month cycles. That was how they managed to release content every two weeks. They've gone back to only having one team for the LS2, and that meant we all thought the majority of the team were hard at work to make this feature pack something big.
So much for that.
I really don't mean to be so negative, and if you ask people around I was very supportive of ArenaNet and their direction for quite a long time. I would defend this game for pages. So please be careful about who you call unreasonable or pessimistic.
Posted Phineas Poe on 01 September 2014 - 10:12 PM
I'm hoping what they do in the future meets your standards as it appears they are VERY high.
This is so bullshit.
They developed LS1 content on very strict time frames of 2-3 months, starting with Guild Missions in the early months of 2013. From that point onward we got Edge of the Mists, Molten Facility, Southsun Cove, Labyrinthine Cliffs, Super Adventure Box World 1 and 2, the Aetherblade Retreat, Marionette, Scarlet, Wurm, Tequatl 2.0, the Thaumanova Fractal, and Twilight Arbor Aetherpath. That was all released in the span of roughly one year. Nobody complained about the quantity of this content; most criticism was that it was temporary, or that what was spread out between these events were largely fluff.
I cannot establish this enough: I played this game for 4000 hours over the past 2 years in large part because of this stuff. But the LS2 has me sitting on my hands wondering how I'm going to keep my guild interested in this game. We had to start coming up with new events to do together as a guild, but GW2 isn't a sandbox. It doesn't really facilitate player-driven content, and reward for this stuff were coming out of our own pockets.
Just for some perspective: Scarlet Briar died in March. We haven't seen shit from ArenaNet since except for Dry Top. I cannot stress enough how slow the past six months have been from a guild management perspective. With the megaserver there is very little incentive to do open world content as a guild, and we haven't seen a new fractal or dungeon in quite some time.
Is it really "unreasonable" to ask that they dedicate six months of their FULL resources and come out with a few new dungeons or some fights equal to Marionette? I mean seriously. If 20 people can put together Wurm in 2-3 months, if what the LS1 teams did was only a mere fraction of the staff, then it's hardly unreasonable to think that they could be doing more. A lot more.
To position it differently, Guild Wars 2 was a completely different game between the start of 2013 and the start of 2014. Ascended gear, the megaservers, Wurm, Lion's Arch blown up, etc. etc.
Now think about the start of 2014 and what can be reasonably done within the span of the next 3 months. Do you think the start of 2014 and the start of 2015 will be all that different, at least remotely distant as 2014 was to 2013? Because I don't see it. Since March we've gotten one new map and some personal story instances. It's all right, but it's not enough. And when is the next feature patch that will actually have the stuff we care about like precursor crafting? Another six months at least!
Posted Haggus on 01 September 2014 - 03:16 PM
My ignorance (scratch that) OUR ignorance as players towards development behind the scenes obligates us to be a little less....what's the word......bitchy.
Call it making excuses but I prefer to take the wait and see approach rather than whine and call a developer's standards or priorities into question out of some unquenchable thirst for content since realistically the only option out of the two that will yield useful results is the former. After all, the threads on the official forums that typically get attention are the ones that are constructive and opinionated without being overly ignorant or rude.
I'm hoping what they do in the future meets your standards as it appears they are VERY high.
Wait-and-see is fine at release. After two years, for me, I'm done with wait-and-see. I'm at the "they need to s%$t or get off the pot" phase. The China release, and all the tech mods that are bound to hit here, are the only thing keeping me around a few months. Who knows? The China release might be why we got what we did, so far, in LS2. As for high standards, if people didn't hold them to high standards, or they didn't hold themselves to such, how crappy a game do you think this would be?
Also, remember this: people don't complain about games they don't care about, or don't want to succeed. The Navy has a saying: a happy sailor is a b------- sailor. It's when the b------- stops that you have to worry. That's when they just don't care.
Posted RandolfRa on 01 September 2014 - 06:46 AM
Aye, but in the end a customer is only interested in the actual product and how it compares to other similar products in the market. Whatever internal problems a company may have aren't relevant to the customer. If your services suck, they suck. In the long term it doesn't matter why.
For example in our context, I could care less how updated and streamlined the code base of the Guild Wars 2 client is. I care solely about what I experience in game.
Posted Phineas Poe on 30 August 2014 - 03:24 PM
Well, yes and no. I think the practice that MMOs release unfinished is absolutely true, and is common in most genres across the gaming industry. And I think stuff like ascended gear and Fractals of the Mists are a perfect example of things they wanted to do on launch but didn't have time to complete.
Where my issue arises is that there are still issues/fixes that need to be done for GW2 to improve the quality of life of the end-game and they're instead focused on creating even more new content that distracts from these problems. ArenaNet has, simply put, said absolutely nothing about the state of fractals or the obviously flawed loot table. They've also said absolutely nothing about whether or not more hardcore content like Tequatl and Wurm are entering into the game.
In essence, as a community we have been running completely blind over the past year as to what exactly the direction of the game is. This would more than be fine, but this has coincided with some of the strongest gem store pushes including, but not limited to infinite harvesting tools, copper/silver-fed-salvage-o-matics, costumes, toys, and mini pets. And any time questions are raised about the direction of GW2's end-game we're met with Colin Johanson non-speak so egregiously nebulous that even Peter Molyneux is taking notes.
But you are right on one point. It's generally common that MMOs don't really hit their stride until a few years into their life. It's at that point the dedicated community is established and the developers have a good idea in mind of where they want to take the game. FFXI was a good game at launch (provided it was 1 year old when it reached the States), but it didn't really enter into its prime until Chains of Promathia came out.
But the thing to keep in mind about all of this is that CoP built upon preexisting systems in FFXI. The Living Story S2 is entirely disconnected from fractals, dungeons, and even open world raiding. It all takes place in single-player instances and what open world content we've received is both (1) completely unrewarding for those working on legendaries and (2) does nothing to challenge or excite two-year veterans of the game.
What happened to stuff like Marionette and the Scarlet invasion? What happened to stuff like Flame & Frost? Super Adventure Box? S1 had a lot of bullshit in it and the story was awful, but it also had some very good content that was engaging, fun, and challenging. You had to work with other players to succeed.
In S2 it's all solitary. It's no where near as engaging as S1, even if the plot is better this time around. My guild has literally nothing to do in this game together anymore except Tequatl and Wurm, and that content is getting very old very fast. And while I'm more than happy with just walking away and taking a break until they add new stuff, I am beyond frustrated that some of my most dedicated guild members that step up every day still haven't been rewarded shit for it.
Guild Wars 2 so desperately needs both a reward system overhaul as well as more content that challenges players and does it in a way that is both rewarding and fun and they're instead catering to the lowest common denominator and new players. They're uplifting mouth-breathers that can't even figure out how the downed state works or find the weapon skill system too complicated so that they just get it all at once for each weapon.
I mean for ♥♥♥♥'s sake. While most MMOs refine their vision and create content for their dedicated core, ArenaNet seems to want to widen the gap farther, pull in even more new players that have different objectives, and tell their dedicated core that they can wait. Sorry but I can see when I'm being jerked around. I quit World of Warcraft after Burning Crusade, after recognizing they were dumbing down the game to make a quick buck. I never went back because what I researched years later was an entirely different game.
I actually think GW1 is a terrible example to follow as the systems in place during Prophecies and in Nightfall might as well be different games. And unfortunately I worry the same thing is starting to happen here. I have no doubt in my mind that GW2 will continue developing while I am gone.
I am merely concerned that it's developing in a direction I do not like.
Boredom is more than acceptable after playing a game for 4000 hours over two years. But I just feel so slighted that I never got that fractal axe. That I never got those Wurm gloves. That I never got a single precursor drop in the world or in the forge. There's legendaries I want to make but the path of obtaining them is just so unfun, grindy, and abusive. The only reason I finished Bolt is because a guildie gifted me Zap. I was about to quit the game at that point, but his donation gave me reason to stay.
A little RNG is OK. But it feels like everything in this game is at the whim of it. I raided in FFXI two days a week for two years and was the best geared bard on my server in full AF2. I raided in WoW for a year three days a week and walked away being one of the best geared rogues on my server. I raided Tequatl nearly every day for a year and got one weapon skin. How is that OK?
I invested way more time into GW2 than I did FFXI or WoW and yet I'm far less rewarded for it.
Posted draxynnic on 30 August 2014 - 11:45 AM
On the other hand, pissed off players from something that was announced and not delivered on are the vocal ones, while people who just slip away because they don't feel like anything is happening rarely vent all over game forums... but they leave just the same, and if anything may be more likely to leave than the person ranting about how a particular thing had to be given up on or whatever it might be.
Where you sit between these extremes is a balancing act... and it's a balancing act where you have to account for player perceptions and expectations. If people are happy with the rate at which post-release development is happening, for instance, then you can get away with being a little quieter about your plans for the future and the projects that didn't work out. If people have the idea that you have no direction and things are going nowhere, though, that calls for releasing some of your plans - either plans for the future or plans that didn't work out in the past - to demonstrate what you are doing.
The GW2 team has been close to the culture of silence extreme of this balancing act, but the very fact that we're having this conversation demonstrates that there's a problem. A lot of people aren't happy with getting "more of the same", and if ArenaNet doesn't take steps to demonstrate otherwise, than "more of the same" is what people are going to assume for the future.
And there are really only two ways to demonstrate otherwise: talk about things they're planning that aren't "more of the same" (even if they're covered with disclaimers to the effect that things may change before actual release) or release something that isn't "more of the same". The second option is of course preferable and a desired followup to the first, but takes more time, time which they may or may not have. There's always going to be a few people lawyering their words, but most people are reasonable enough that they're not going to sweat the small stuff if they're able to see the bigger picture. Problem is, at the moment, to the general audience it's not clear that there even IS a bigger picture.
Posted draxynnic on 30 August 2014 - 08:56 AM
Less flippantly, word has been out that profits from GW2 were channeled into NCSoft's other projects. This is, in fact, not unreasonable - GW2 in development was supported by NCSoft's consolidated revenue for years, so it's only fair that it gives something back. There is, however, little sign of enough resources being channeled back to go towards a genuine expansion (at the level normally expected of an MMO expansion) or the equivalent.
Your comment about August 2015 is telling in my mind. You've now set your tolerance for stagnation - three years. Different people's tolerances are, well, different. In the meantime, I've seen a lot of people who persisted through GW1, including the lean years between the end of EOTN's honeymoon period and beginning of Beyond, and who were significant figures in the community both then and at the start of GW2... now? Last logged on: X months ago. Or, simply, 'Unknown'. Basically, though, in saying this, you've basically agreed with me - it's just that your tolerance is higher. (Personally, in discussions with people who have either since left or are thinking about leaving, I've commented that 2014 is going to be make or break for GW2. I took exactly the same stance as you are now, except with the deadline roughly 6 months earlier. If nothing substantial changes in the next six to twelve months, are you going to be feeling as I am now, or are you going to be looking for reasons to give them more time? Either possibility is equally telling, in my mind.)
Besides, when it comes to industry standards, let's look at the example that always comes up when MMOs are compared. Burning Crusade came out close to exactly two years after vanilla WoW... and while I haven't been able to find the exact date, from memory it was announced at least six months before. They've been putting out expansions every two years since (give or take a couple of months). Yes, I know, Blizzard is Blizzard, but even so, the clock is ticking and the perception is growing. You could persuade everyone in this discussion, heck, everyone who still posts in these forums that it's more appropriate to give ArenaNet three years... but that's going to be a drop in the water, and even then, the clock is ticking for them to either announce something big, or demonstrate that they can do more than a couple of new zones and maybe a dozen or two new character options (including reworking unused and obsolete traits) per year.
On new weapons and skills: No, I can't provide a link. Largely because it's actually been said often enough, both before and after release, that I didn't think that in a year or so's time I'd have someone asking me for a link, because I had confidence in ArenaNet. I may even have a hardcopy floating around, but I've moved twice in the past six months and can't always put my hands on nonessentials.
And sure, you could say that for all we know that for every player that leaves someone joins... but that's just hiding behind the fact that ArenaNet hasn't been releasing the data (and as you may of noticed, when an MMO is growing strong, that's something companies like to advertise). There's almost always going to be a trickle of new players, but the off person asking for clarification does not offset the overwhelming testimony of people who are either leaving themselves or who have seen their guilds and friend lists overwhelming filled by people who haven't logged on for months.
Posted Nikephoros on 10 July 2014 - 01:58 PM
That's not a very bright idea. Wearing tanky gear is passive and requires no skill or experience to get maximum effect. Dodging is active and requires skill and experience to get maximum effect. Why would any competent game designer encourage the former at the expense of the latter?