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Member Since 10 Nov 2012
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#2319997 The New Mesmer Meta

Posted Jeremlloyd on 25 April 2014 - 08:44 AM

BrazilTheHue said:

Did you account for Bloodlust and Perception stacks, Jerem?

No I didn't take stacks into account for the maths I've done. But with Perception stacks, Berserker +Scholar is better for sure. And for Bloodlust I assume Assassin/Zerk + Scholar is better that Berserker with Ranger runes

master21 said:

I could say in short.
You build makes mesmer useless  for fractals.
Does it make mesmer as a class bad there? No, only makes your build suck even more.

When you say build, are you talking about the traits? If so, I'm afraid you're wrong. 6/6/0/0/2 - 6/5/0/0/3 - 6/4/0/0/4 and 6/4/0/4/0 is the main builds you want to use now on mesmer. For gear, you mainly want 2 sets now. Berserker + Scholar if you can stack Perception, else Assassin/Zerk (Assassin on Armor and Weapon, Berserker on Trinkets). You can stack Bloodlust with the Assassin/Zerk set.

master21 said:

As long answer.
Wall of reflection as better reflect? Really? Are you serius? Narrow wall with time cast for which I need to move to cast it in proper place?
Feedback is just instant, block everything from outside and inside great spell
Add to it focus skills. You can't be serious if you think that in reflect guardian wins. (your build loose, but only because it's stupid build)

Well what Brazil say is that Guardian can maintain all the reflection an organized group need. And atm, the only reason to bring mesmer in a record run is because of portal pretty much.

master21 said:

Bloomhunger (because phantasm survive there long), dredge, grawl shaman, asura fractal are fractals with a lot of things to reflect. Mesmer beats guardian there always.
1. WoR uptime is lower,
2. Guardian can't use reflect from distance, at start
3. Feedback and warden has higher radius or working which gives more space if you want to reflect and deal damage.

1. Guardian have access to WoR + SotA, so he can use WoR first, then Shield, and when Shield is down he can usually use another wall
2. Why do you want to use reflect at the start for a boss fight? That's just stupid. Any good mesmer wait for the attack to reflect to use Feedback / Curtain. The only part where using Feedback from distance I can see is Uncategorized, but again you usually have a thief to avoid fighting the harpies.
3. Since we usually stack and LoS mobs, that argument isn't valid either.

master21 said:

Add to it all those stealth whatever and boon stripping. You can have all damage on the world, but null field + sword will delete protection from dredge -> 33% reduction is gone.

Argument about phantasm dying is just a pure LOL. Because they die (but they still half of your source of damage) you just ignored them as a whole (assasin gear + strange traits + long cd) to get ... 8% damage buff for direct damage and you even have balls to call it a "meta build".

For Stealth, you bring a Thief, not a Mesmer. But I agree boon stripping is pretty good, but only useful against dredge and for the Ascalon fractal.

I don't see why you wouldn't take Empowering Mantra. Since the point you bring a mesmer in the first place is for reflect damage, so you want to take everything that boost your reflects.

#2295069 Friendly fire

Posted Nikephoros on 13 February 2014 - 02:40 PM

Yet another topic about the evils of zerker/dps/stacking/melee/organization/tactics/warriors/lolcats.

#2275295 Lupi All Guardian 37s Kill

Posted Obal on 29 December 2013 - 06:07 AM

DPS Guardian OP

#2275097 Guardian 56k Whirling Wrath and More

Posted Obal on 27 December 2013 - 10:30 PM

View PostEpixors, on 27 December 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

Even though that was a sad amount of damage under almost optimal circumstances I still believe there has been some tampering with the video.

The difference between the tests was the builds and gear I used which I showed at the end and noted when they changed. The only difference was that I didn't have another strength booster for the cleric ones which I noted on the video description though the zerk back piece I had would add some of that power back.  Other than that I had the same consumables and buffs for everything and made sure I had adequate might and vuln for the WWs for the clerics gear tests.  I did them twice and took the higher one which was about the same as the lower.  I lacked the strength booster since I noticed I only hit 9x with WW when I did it originally so I took the effort to do it again so it was in line with the others.  If anything I put more effort into the clerics testing then I did with the rest other than the 56k WW I did.

#2275079 Guide to Hammers in PvE

Posted Obal on 27 December 2013 - 09:06 PM

View PostSilentstorma, on 27 December 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

It's about what works in your style and results. Don't let try hards determine {YOUR} style. Because it won't be native. And you will quit the game trust me. What I suggest is look at the highest dps build you can find. And morph it to your will not anyone elses. And you find more happiness that way. Rather then copying what someone else says. Use this guides build in question test it alter it. If you can't make it work move on.

Majority of the community does that. Only a very small fraction of the community swears full dps or else your bad is the only way to go. Everyone just ignores the rude ego's like they don't exist, and does what they want anyway. Trust your judgement and eyes. Usually if it looks fail and it doesn't work for you. Most likely either you don't know how to use it. Or it is actually not worth using. But I suggest not just listening to any one source. Try everything and feel things out. Then come to a decision based off of yourself and game play. Like I said if you don't feel or identify with a build. You will just quit on the class or even the game.

We respect Guang and his theorcrafting using logic and math but this guide was made in April without updates and there has been changes since then with all the skill/trait changes and the strategies people use.  Nike referenced my guide since this one is a bit out of date and mine is more up to date.  He was trying to be helpful to someone that asked for help.  I'm not sure why you insist on calling people try hards, elitists, and egotistical all the time.  It really adds no value and you've proven time after time to not be above any of the things you call people.

#2275052 Guardian 56k Whirling Wrath and More

Posted Obal on 27 December 2013 - 08:11 PM

Here are some big numbers by a DPS Guardian using 20/25/0/0/25 which I use for everything other then fractals. I cycled through all the weapons and threw in a few suprises at the end :)

My DPS Guardian Guide: https://forum-en.gui...n-for-PVE/first

#2272718 Kicking Thieves in PvE

Posted BreadBuddy on 19 December 2013 - 03:26 AM

Most people are also still under the illusion that full zerker gear is terrible for PVE.

#2274842 Yuberoths support guardian for dungeons/fractals.

Posted Kattar on 26 December 2013 - 08:44 PM

If you can't accept criticism about a build you shouldn't be posting one. If you can't have a discussion without acting like a 12 year old, you don't belong on this forum.

Your thread is now locked.

#2274749 Yuberoths support guardian for dungeons/fractals.

Posted Epixors on 26 December 2013 - 03:35 PM

View PostYuberoth, on 26 December 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Im guessing this is the questions i should aswer.
Its a better support, with unparalled uptime of stability, protection, healing, reflection, condition removal and blind (except for offhand pistol thiefs ofc)
Its. Its not the best damagebuild, i never said it was.
The more damage the players in the team has the faster you will clear things, its common sense. You can use zerk warrior,thief, ele ,mesmer, ranger and in a perfect world clear everything record fast. You dont need a guardian even, i have done 49 with grawl in a team without guard on my mesmer.
You take a guardian to make things smoother. You dont need a thief for harpy or dredge either, but its smoother. You didnt need a mesmer for the mimic trick or portal either, but it made things smoother. Clearing things faster is not everything that matters. Having a much smoother 5min longer run is a trade many players would do.
If i wanted to use another build i would. Its not like its a secret build.
This build is meant to maximize support without gimping your damage too much.
Im not even gonna answer the last question.

And why is it so hard to make a video of those things i asked for? Or at least find one on internet, since its soo easy? Nolifer guilds on Ts excluded.

Even if you don't want to answer the last question atleast clearly answer the 2nd and 3rd please. You aren't using the hammer as your main weapon nor using Writ of Persistence so I really doubt the "unparalleled uptime of protection".

The reason it'd be hard to find a video of an organized group (NOTE: They do have a life, that's just some false assumption you make) using voice communication is because they are the groups uploading the videos to show other people how it should be done. Obal has a good collection of videos here: http://www.guildwars...st-shown-at-48/

A guardian can make things smooth by bringing reflects, condition removal and damage. We bring enough condition removal and reflects by going 20 into Virtues leaving us to spend the rest on DPS. To do this with a Hammer we go 15 into Zeal to get a damage modifier, power and maintained vulnerability through the symbol auto-attack. We need 15 in Radiance to spam VoJ and if there's another source of viable condition removal we can drop 10 in Virtues to go 25 into this to get another damage modifier.

20 in Honor is required for the Hammer as it grants 100% protection up-time on the auto-attack and increases the damage output. 10 in Honor is mandatory for the Consecration cooldown/duration as it's one of the main reasons to bring a Guardian. Going 20 into it depends on the group composition but I pretty much always do it as it feels comfortable for me.

With 15/15/0/20/20 you have maximized the necessary support that a Guardian needs to bring while maintaining good damage. With 15/25/0/20/10 the support is somewhat lower (still strong condition removal with Purging Flames though) and damage is increased.

You didn't maximize support while not trying to gimp your damage too much, you went overkill on support because of the incapability of your team/yourself and then try to promote that as a better build to something much more efficient. Your gear and rune choices are complete crap and you'd perform much better in full zerker and if you're not capable of that in knights/zerker than you would in celestial gear. Boon duration is not necessary as protection can be kept up 100% of the time and stability is something that has to be timed in general and is already quite long without boon duration. Regen is a pretty weak boon and you shouldn't even be thinking about healing your team mates through anything other than VoR and blasting water fields.

There is still absolutely no reason why this build would be better and it really isn't something you should be suggesting to other players as they will perform below their capabilities with it and slow down the group they play with, effectively wasting someone's time.

#2274695 Yuberoths support guardian for dungeons/fractals.

Posted Epixors on 26 December 2013 - 01:07 PM

View PostYuberoth, on 26 December 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

I dont argue with number crunchers without actual playing experience. Answer this instead In a team with max dmg ele, mesm, warrior and ranger how much lower is the total team dps? Since you like to spredsheet stuff.

But why even use two guardians then? because you need the support correct? better use 1 guardian and other classes then in my opinion.
And i would like to see a video of you in a full zerk/dpsbuild/scholar team meleeing every fractal 50 with only 1 guard in a 15/15/0/20/20 build. You can know the players, but no a set group, and no TS.

And as i have said, i am aware of other builds on this site.

And epixors handbook is worth nothing since he doesnt have actual playing experience.

Well obviously you have no idea on how to work things out on a spreadsheet. Even if you'd give me the information on exactly what builds they were running and what circumstances they were in compared to your group I wouldn't calculate it because then you'd just write it of as "he doesn't have any playing experiences".

I have ~520 hours on my Guardian, it's not an immense number I am aware of that but I also have other things to do in life than play Guild Wars 2, it just happens to be something I enjoy so I like to help out other Guardians. I wouldn't say I have no playing experience at all.

I never said I use two Guardians in my team, it's something that you mentioned so I just replied to that. Diffent classes provide different support in a variety of ways. Mesmers offer mobility and reflects, Guardians offer reflects and condition removal, Warriors offer banners, Rangers offer Frost Spirit & Spotter, etc etc etc.

Different classes provide support in different ways both offensive and defensive. Guardians can provide reflects (offensive and defensive) and condition removal (defensive) very efficiently without having to drop too much personal DPS.

Also, did you even read my guide on Guardians and understand it? I very much so doubt you did. I won't make a video on that level of Fractals because I don't play that high (also never said I did btw) nor do I really feel the need to proof anything to you that is general information.

While you try to hopelessly defend this build again valid arguments from different people, please take the time to answer my questions which shouldn't really be that hard to answer at all if you're so convinced of your build. Note that "evidence" is a key part of a discussion, playtime is not.

EDIT: clarified

#2274683 Yuberoths support guardian for dungeons/fractals.

Posted Epixors on 26 December 2013 - 12:43 PM

View PostYuberoth, on 26 December 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Its better boon duration for reg, prot, stab etc and not much lower damage i a realistic run with people that have real lifes and dont run with same ppl 10h per day. But you wouldnt know since you dont play. In a team with max dmg ele, mesm, warrior and ranger how much lower is the total team dps? Since you like to spredsheet stuff.
There is also a difference when playing solo guard or have two. When you have two you have twice as much reflect aegis etc, there is no need ise nothing but full dps then. But as solo guard all responsibility is on you, and not shared.

Mind actually answering the questions I asked in a decent format instead of making assumptions based on absolutely nothing? The difference with having one or two guardians is that one guardian can drop condition removal usually and doesn't have to use the Hammer spec and can go for a more damage-oriented build.

So please, answer the questions so this won't end up locked like the Scion Storm topic and so this can be a fruitful discussion.

#2274665 Yuberoths support guardian for dungeons/fractals.

Posted Nikephoros on 26 December 2013 - 11:29 AM

View PostYuberoth, on 25 December 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

There is nothing you can teach me about playing a guardian. I put this build here because i think its better.

View PostYuberoth, on 25 December 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Who are you anyway? From your points i this thread alone its obvious you spend more time with your spreadsheets than actually playing the game.

These kinds of statements are simply troll baiting.  Better you spend time learning the fractals until you're comfortable in melee before you start lecturing people on what is and isn't good, since you are somewhat embarrassing yourself.

#2274653 Yuberoths support guardian for dungeons/fractals.

Posted Obal on 26 December 2013 - 10:59 AM

View PostYuberoth, on 26 December 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Well its not like a 15/150/20/20 is that good damage either, and when the other 4 partymembers are full dps is not much of a difference in total party damage. If i wanted to do damage i would use 20/30/0/0/20 scepter/sword+focus with full zerk and scholar. But then the thread would be named guardian damage build.
And to the above poster, i think you are missing the point, we were talking about standing still and autoattaking with hammer vs not. Its not like i never use hammer quite the opposite, but i dont build most of my support around its autoattack.

Having more than 20 points in honor is not worthwhile.  You should have only 1 shout on your bar for most of the content so pure of voice is not worthwhile in fractals.  Conditions aren't really a problem to begin with for the most part and you have absolute resolution and purging flames which is plenty.  Two handed mastery is only worthwhile in underwater in which you don't have use for Writ and can swap.  Empowering might is underwhelming and battle presence won't be the difference of being able to take 2-3 shots instead of 1-2 so it's not very helpful for fractals.  Only superior aura for using retreat at boss fights and writ of persistence for giving perma prot which is op for fractal are worth it.  Your left with 10 points better spent taking that out.  Power of the virtuous will be around 5% of your own dps but it would be better to add that 5 to the 10 from honor to get 15 in zeal since you can keep up 5-6 vuln which will increase everyones dps by the same amount and give you 150 more power on top of that.  If your not the main source of condition removal you can take 10 more out of virtues and put it to radiance to max out your damage.

The best fractal builds would be 15/25/0/20/10 if you have another person in your group with decent condition removal for the group and 15/15/0/20/20 if not.  The only unique support the hammer build does comes from perma prot from hammer auto + writ or persistance. To do the right support other than that you will want master of consecrations, blind spam from traited virtue of justice, and the maximum traited dps tailored to the group and content, as well as using the proper utilities for each fight.  Gear can be substituted if you feel the need for more self preservation.  

An optimized hammer build can do good damage.  It's less damage than gs + sword rotation build but you give up dps loss for the perma prot for fractals which would make it more useful.  Running 15/25/0/20/10 and doing gs + hammer rotations is nearly the same damage as 10/25/0/10/25 gs + sword/focus.  Still you want to camp hammer for prot though it's still not a huge difference like you seem to think it is.

Also, all stat gear and runes are also bad for pve since you are using up stat points to things not worthwhile for a pve guardian like condition damage, healing, and toughness/vitality if you don't need them.  Berserker (with a few assassins pieces) would be the best for intermediate-expert range and knights/zerker mix would be best for beginners.

#2274512 Yuberoths support guardian for dungeons/fractals.

Posted Epixors on 25 December 2013 - 09:58 PM

View PostYuberoth, on 25 December 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

I dont play spreadsheetwars 2, i do <1h fractal 49s on a daily basis, as alone guardian, with various people. The vulnerability from 15 zeal doesnt help much. For trash is better to use greatsword for pulling and better damage, and for bosses its useless aswell since 99% of players use range on them. I prefer to use scepter and go in and out with greatsword myself.
Standing by yourself autoattacking with hammer while everyone is spread out will not help them survive, but the healing from battle presence and 70% reg, prot, stability will.
Or the cond removal from absolute resolution and pure of voice.
Even if you dont use battle presence (and your numbers is way of on the heal btw) you still have better options and flexibility from going 30 in honor than 10 in zeal.

And celestial is not terrible, knight is not terrible. Toughness/cond dmg/healiing/vitality combos, those would be terrible. Celestial and knight would at least be decent even for damage specs.

View PostYuberoth, on 25 December 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Who are you anyway? From your points i this thread alone its obvious you spend more time with your spreadsheets than actually playing the game.

I don't really understand why you're hating on spreadsheets, didn't even use one here. Naturally I use spreadsheets because they are a good way to calculate what's best to run so that I can inform new players on what would be best to do and help out people that want to know if one or the other is better.

As to who I am? Clearly someone who has a better understanding of the class and the game in general... I won't say I'm a great player, tbh I'm probably very average but I do try to learn, produce and help others in a way that is efficient and optimal.

If you're playing with people who range bosses you are playing with bad people who have never learned how to actively avoid damage because it's not required for almost all of the fights.

It seems the wiki and the in-game values don't match-up for Battle Presence so if that's the case I apologize, however in-game lists it as an even worse heal. I'd test it if it weren't completely useless.

If you're taking a hammer, using celestial gear with boon duration runes and then proceed to NOT use the hammer in my opinion you really have no idea what it means to be a Guardian in Fractals at all. I don't play Fractals alot, don't really enjoy them, but it's just common sense to use a weapon which can provide 100% protection up-time to your allies. If your party members range in the first place (bad thing) they don't need the protection (if they die at range they must suffer from some kind of mental illness) and you'll still help out those sensible enough to melee.

You can still provide stability and regeneration (regen isn't a great boon though) fine with a 15/15/0/20/20 or 15/25/0/20/10 setup fine and as mentioned before Battle Presence is terrible.

The new comment you posted just showed up, and if you don't PUG I'd start yelling at your friends/guildies to stand in melee. If you're wondering why someone should stand in melee range it's because the damage of melee weapons is higher (generally higher skill coefficient/second for melee weapons).

About the stat combos: "Toughness/cond dmg/healiing/vitality combos, those would be terrible."

There you go, you almost summed up Celestial gear...

TL;DR: It seems you don't know what to do, have no idea about any of the calculations you should be doing when building a class, are clearly playing with people who are clueless, are trying to mislead new players into bringing a bad build and the worst of all are not at all willing/able to bring good evidence for the choices you make and why you think they are better nor accept that the things I say are true.

#2274485 Yuberoths support guardian for dungeons/fractals.

Posted Epixors on 25 December 2013 - 07:40 PM

I'll try to keep this from derailing like the Scion Storm build thread. Please realize that you are putting your build up on a forum, a forum is a place where people can share their opinions and criticize on builds. If you are not supporting your choices with math or atleast a good reasoning I'll come in and question it because I don't want new players to follow such build as they may end up in my groups slowing me down terribly.

I really have no problem with you wanting to run this build, I do have a problem with you trying to spread a build which is far from optimal to new players who may be looking to play a good support spec (which would be 15/15/0/20/20 or 15/25/0/20/10).

You are calling this a support spec yet you stay in Greatsword for most of the time which is an offensive. Hammer is the way to go for a support spec as it gives everyone (provided they are not bad players and are in melee range) protection. Writ of Persistence will make sure to have the uptime high enough for 100% protection without boon duration opening up your rune slots for offensive ones and it will increase your damage output.

Your build has 1603 power without buffs. Power scales linearly so the 150 power from Zeal would be ~9.4% more damage. On top of that you gain a 10% damage modifier. This will beat Power of the Virtuous (usually averaging at ~4.5%) and Elusive Power which is an effective way of teaching people how to waste dodges.

Battle Presence will heal for ~394 every 3 seconds. First of all it's simply a waste to trait for healing others as they should take care of themselves and you can already prevent wipes with a well-timed Aegis (provided you know the content) and the heal itself is rather small.

Celestial is terrible for Guardians, if people want to be more tanky on bosses with strong auto-attacks (or when learning) they should use Knight's armor with Berserker trinkets/weapons, although I suggest simply starting out in berserker as transitioning is very annoying and a waste of money.

The healing power is a waste as there's bad scaling (and healing isn't needed as mentioned earlier), we aren't a condition damage class at all, toughness and vitality aren't needed as we're inherently good at actively mitigating damage.

So yeah, long story short no problem if you run this it's fine with me but if you post it as a guide a new player may read I will comment on it because imo this is just wrong.