Athena SoF

acolyte93, on 19 November 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

so full of shit

WOW your in complete Denial Guan.

Uziel, on 28 February 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Not that hard.

The_Blades, on 22 February 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Ah, but I have a guild. A 1-man guild. And yet you don't see me complain about being unable to do this with my current guild.

People in small guilds are not the target for this kind of content, it is aimed for big guilds (at least to kick it off, after all everyone can join the missions after they are started).

You are assuming this release is aimed at small groups, that is quite clearly not the case. These are aimed at all those that have shouted about lack of big-group content in the game.

Hmm, wouldn't it make more sense to post the questions the Guildwars2Guru team actually asked rather than to pretty much post the exact same paragraphs Dragon Season posted?

Unless every news site decided to post the question of everyone who got to ask one and make it a 10 part news article.

Ritualist, on 22 February 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Key words being "all of them."

If you dont have time to all long in for a long while regularly, no worries, there is no subscription and you guys can finish them at your own pace. It would be a shame if there WASN'T enough content for the people with more active guilds, rather than make it a wam-bam-done-in-a-month system.

SoR has impressed a forum troll.  Achievement unlocked

The dodge mechanic makes it great.
I try to dodge in every game i play now....

WARNING: LONG POST, skip to TL;DR for major points

TL;DR:

1. Commander is an absolute mess
2. The roles/rewards/recognition of Guilds in a game called 'Guild Wars' is lacking
3. WvW has devolved into ZvZ (ZergvZerg)
4. The lack of Rewards/Progression/Depth/Consequence
5. The devs, their implementation of and lack of commitment to Wvw

Hey all,

I'd like to share with you some of the viewpoints I have with WvW, what it's become and why it will never reach (not in its current state and with the level of developer attention) what we (many of those who bought gw2 primarily for WvW) had hoped it would become during pre-release and the BWEs.

First of all, to establish my credentials (not bragging just establishing experience): I was the founder and GM of 'The Royal Guard', in its heyday a midsize (~60 members) T1 WvW guild and Titan Alliance member (for those of you who remember what THAT was). I've fought and led many, many battles; seen tips and tricks galore; been a part of and observer to scandals and drama; took part in server community building and all that good stuff.

Why WvW will never amount to what the Open World PvP Die-Hard fans wanted


1. Commander is an absolute mess

The implementation of the Commander mechanic is an absolute mess. So let's get this straight - players who grinded PvE or paid cash for gems > gold (as being an all out WvW participant wouldn't net you that type of wealth at all) pay 100g and get to lord over other players in WvW? This is ridiculous. I have seen commanders make the absolute shittiest calls only to get rebuffed when calling them out, because "they're Commanders."

Back in beta they were called on over and over again to change this mechanic: require badges instead, or kills, or tower captures - ANYTHING that was actually related to WvW and showed you had experience. We were rebuffed and instead we have a system that discourages the devs to create a guild raid system, encourages inexperienced individuals to lead WvW, encourages zerging and hobbles tactical play and engenders an attitude of petulance that simply because you have a blue icon - you know what's best.

The WvW devs should honestly be ashamed that Commander is in the game the way that it is right now.


2. The roles/rewards/recognition of Guilds in a game called 'Guild Wars' is lacking

Spare me the lore argument. The game is called guild wars and the guild component as it relates to WvW is undercooked. The buffs and the siege weapons you can get from the guild upgrades are great, truly they are, but that's where it stops.

If we take bay, garri, sm or what have you - does that do anything for our guild? So our banner is hanging from some paownts, what of it? Do you know whose banner that is? Are the NPCs named after us? Do we get influence or gold or karma over time for holding onto an objective? Does it announce in map chat that xxx guild has captured and claimed xxx objective? Do we have a system that allows us to form groups larger than 5 or at the very least see all guildies on the map? Is there any mechanic at all, other than an indistinguishable banner, that recognizes guild achievements in WvW? is there anything - at all - that truly benefits WvW guilds and significantly encourages guilds in this gameplay?

The answer to all of these questions are No. The guild buffs do not significantly encourage guild gameplay in WvW as they apply to pugs as well. They're a 'set-it-and-forget-it' mechanic. No one knows which guild just gave them 5 different types of buffs neither do you need to be in that guild to get them. I'm not advocating that you should - but it just goes to show that guilds really lack scope and purpose in WvW.


3. WvW has devolved into ZvZ (ZergvZerg)

When I first started playing WvW in the BWE's and the weeks and months after launch, zergs were a valid tactic, a tool to be used, but could be tactically outplayed using coordination. More often than not, at launch the guilds in TA were outnumbered vs the guilds from other alliances, notably Ascension Alliance, due to HoD bandwagoners and queues. What this usually meant was, while our maps were packed, Alliance members made up only a handful of that total and due to Ascension's  server moves, they were able to usually field a greater ratio of their alliance than we were (at least on my assigned map).

I remember going against devastating, brutal zergs; even when you beat them they'd come back again and again knocking on your door over and over and over like a battering ram. Like a heavyweight boxing match they'd just keep bashing you again and again until you felt like you couldn't take anymore. As soon as you finished the last of a zerg, regrouped and got your bearings - they were on your doorstep again. It was awesome.

Once when our homeworld garrison was occupied by Ascension, my guild and 2 other TA guilds were assigned to take it back. Due to queues, our combined numbers were like 1/3rd of Ascension's on the map. Using about 5 guys to attack Bay and draw swords, the rest of our motley crew hit garrison for all we were worth. We got wiped, over and over. But the thing was, they were responding to the 5 guys at Bay AND the crew hitting garrison with their ENTIRE 40 man zerg. Eventually they were too slow getting back to garri and we ninja'd it from them. It was a great feeling.

I told this long story because the WvW pop has consistently dwindled now to where ZvZ is the *only* way to play. Sure, you can try to play tactical with a small group and ninja an obj. A zerg can take it faster though. Sure, you can try and defend your only remaining objective on the map with the handful of people you have. A zerg will just ram right through you and your defenses though. Due to culling and the way the maps are designed, a zerg will get to a location just as fast and stealthily as a small tactical group (and maybe even more so).

Zergs even have the advantage in fights vs smaller groups, due to the AoE limitation. The AoE limitation is so utterly idiotic I cannot wrap my head around it. Zergs are a valid tatic - they shouldn't just be the ONLY tactic. AoE limit needs to be lifted/increased and some other mechanics need to go into place to dull the power of zergs and ecourage more tactical play.


4. The lack of Rewards/Progression/Depth/Consequence

This is probably the biggest reason why my once thriving, very competitive WvW guild is dead. WvW has no rewards, progression, depth or consequence. During the span of Titan Alliance, we had 31 straight wins. What did we get for it? We got burnt out, member attrition, guilds dropping the game after one month and a whole bunch of other stuff. Now I know you might say, 'Well that's your fault, you should have played more casually'. No, that's wrong. Any great online game caters to both the hardcore and the casual and those in between. You can not blame the participants who competed in a competitive event and say they tried too hard.

The progression is WvW is nonexistent, though they are attempting to fix that with the WvW only abilities. That still doesn't address the lack of depth and consequence in WvW. At the end of our run in WvW, we looked at our wins and thought, 'What now?' What do we get for winning? Surely we must get SOMETHING, since those in sPvP get something for winning and those in PvE get something for their efforts (and for our's). We got nothing, there was no difference between winner or loser; they got the WvW bonuses too, even if only a few % less than us. WvW had nothing to mark that you and your guild were there and that you fought for the glory of your server. In the end, WvW simply doesn't matter.

Furthermore, the game simply does not reward those in WvW *ANYWHERE NEAR* the same that they do those in PvE. and even the rewards in PvE suck. Check it:

- BoH award you a total of 1 variety of gear set, out of how many in the game?
- BOH drop  incredibly sparingly, the drop rate on these need to increase dramatically. When you need to play for hours and kill dozens of players to get the same # of BOH you get from opening a jumping puzzle chest, your rewards are *ed
- For many of those who truly bought this game for WvW, WvW is a massive money sink and not at all as gold positive as PvE. Adding a WP in WvW costs 1.5g. Fortifying walls is 2g. Buying a cannon upgrade is 40s. Repairing is 11.5s. You only get about 1.5s from taking/defending an objective and 98 copper for taking a sentry. You do the math.
- Dolyak XP/gold was temporarily removed at launch due to being too lucrative, but never balanced and re-added back to the game.
- Spikes
- Barbs

I could go on and on.


5. The devs, their implementation of and lack of commitment to Wvw

I don't want this post to be removed, so I will be very choice with this part, despite my massive disappointment with Mike Ferguson and his WvW team. Honestly, you guys have to know that WvW is so far from their priority right now that it's kind of sad. And if it is a group's priority, they're not doing a good job. Let's review the course of events :

- They always (even 6 months post launch) use the excuse that they had no idea how popular WvW would be. This is hogwash, Wvw was one of the most popular, talked about content pre-launch. The vast majority of the guilds pre-launch were WvW guilds
- It took them MONTHS to remove free transfers, ruining countless server communities in the interim
- Culling has gotten worse since launch. Yes, I know they're working on it, that doesn't make it better nore does it make it any less suck during the meantime. The fact that it is like it is in the 1st place is absolutely embarassing
- They have removed rewards from Dolyaks
- They removed the orbs rather than switching the outmanned and orb buffs
- In March, it will be approx 4mo since the introduction of Ascended gear and it's ability to be earned in WvW
- They are looking to tone down AoE's, thereby increasing the effectiveness of zergs even more

Mike Ferguson is on record as saying they cannot create larger maps, that the maps we have are the largest they're technically able to create. And this is the crux of the issue and has root causes in all the others.  Not the map size, but the scope of the gametype itself. WvW is a mini-game. A sideshow, a thing you do when you want to knock some heads together for a couple hours then go back to playing the 'real game' (pve) or log off. WvW is completely cut off from the rest of the game and while I can understand +WHY+ they did that, you other diehard Open World PvP'ers must understand that because it is cut off, all these other problems exist. Because WvW is a mini-game, they were ok with creating a shitty Commander system, with guilds being unnecessary, with zerging and casual non-competitive play taking over to the exclusion of all others and also ultimately why it's ok our rewards suck, there's no lack of depth or any consequences.

Near launch, Colin Johanson was quoted as saying that the scope of their content releases were going to be 'impressive'. Let's be honest here guys, from the past several months this game has been  out - are ANY of you impressed with the quality of attention the WvW community has seen? Anyone? There is a reason WvW and sPvP are limping along as it is and the reason for that is that it does not cost $15 to log on. If it did, if you're honest to yourself, you know that this game would be on its way to a plane of fail rivaling TorTanic proportions.

Specialz, on 31 January 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

You probably would hear about these sort of things if players dropped whatever equipment they have in WvW upon being killed

"Legendaries worth 25.000 $ exchanged ownership/were destroyed" Imagine the RAGE.

I like the idea.

1 Laurel = 10000 gems
Limit, 1 laurel per month.

ofc

Here's how I do it:

Up to Level 19 - I don't care how much AR you've got, you're game.
20-39 - bring between 10-20 Res, depending how far on either spectrum we're running
40 - 25+

Worked dandy so far, haven't had an issue in the last few days with people who "overreached" or whatever.

raspberry jam, on 30 January 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

Yes. Yes I believe that, and many people have SPECIFICALLY TOLD YOU that they believe that. Stop with the denial already, making an if statement out of vacuum does not help the case when the if statement clearly is not satisfied. Do you have a better way of telling what I believe than me telling you what I believe? If not, listen to me: THAT'S WHAT WE BELIEVE!

You've been going back and forth with different definition of "reward", and I've been trying to be cooperative by switching to your terms of language, only to have you come back and use it in a previously self-denied term. When I use the term to refer to "reward specific to the level of realism, such as game items in a game", you try to label it as "reward in general, INCLUDING psychological joy". When I used the term to refer to "reward in general", you try to argue as if I'm only talking about a particular object or concept. On that note, YES, more difficult things bring more reward, of course! Don't you realize that both "difficult" and "reward" are subject to interpretation and therefore, this statement simply cannot be wrong when used as a "general rule of thumb"?! To argue that a statement is not "thorough" is one thing, to argue it as "wrong" is another, you've got to be kidding me if you're mixing those two up. That's all fine and all, but ultimately: what's with all these finger snapping "no"? You've got no ground to be snappy!

You're simply arguing for the sake of arguing at that point.

And I've no idea that you're stuck on the fundamentals. I'm not challenging you with those statements, you don't have to answer them to show your "knowledge of the case". I assume those to be understood, the only reason that I'm listing those is because I'm going to talk about something relevant and those simply serve as memory refresh. Maybe it's because I've been hearing them everyday at work, but I swear if I hear another cliche regarding the human brain WHILE trying to make it sound like something people don't know (or should be awed by), I'm going to run into some temper issues. Hearing "consciousness is most likely due to connectivity" 50 times a day is worse enough, having people stating those simply as "true" when the scientists themselves are still wondering about it, just isn't right.

Why did people bring assumptions from outside? Oh I can tell you it's FAR from a simple answer like "oh must be the other games" or "oh people are doing it wrong". The thing is, if you can't get past the previous things that we were discussing, there's no way I'm going to list all the reasons and potential factors and experiments and proofs for this problem when you're just going to skip between the lines and ignore all the core contents. This is a forum, it's meant for communication, which means at least an effort into trying to understand each other, not being cynical and critical on minor details and completely avoiding core matters such that I have to come back and spend 5000 words explaining things that I CLEARLY didn't/did mean every time --- I have journal review committee to do that to me on a daily basis thank you very much.

Lastly, the limit of a program is limited by the platform, a closed system with a set of rules can only contain variables adhering to those particular rules. When we say "computer program", we mean the digital system and all the rules that apply there. When we say "humans are programmed", we're talking about the closed system that is this universal world. Changing of concept within a same statement is a violation of logic, so you simply cannot say "people behaving similar as computer program" is the same thing as "people behaving like a program (in the world through biological and causal rules)". Let's not make this into a neon show about how much we understand first year undergraduate philosophy/psychology/neuroscience.

We've derailed this thread far enough, if by this stage there still isn't a consensus (look into my last few threads, I've been trying to come to an agreement to stop these walls of threads which I myself surely is partially responsible for, well I could've tried harder but I certainly refrained from bringing in more topics through picking out minor details, and I tried to emphasis my final claim so that we can get a once sentence agreement on that. But that's clearly not working since I feel you just took 5 seconds to skip through them and just pick out lines that you want to argue against), then it's better to just stop this argument all together. You can think of these things whichever way you want, I've got your message and I've already spoken my mind about it. Let's end it here.

As a Kaineng player since launch, I have very mixed feelings about this mass wave of guild transfers.

One of the greatest things about the WvW on Kaineng was that we were the biggest underdog server in the game. We didn't fight to win: we fought to stand our ground as much as possible despite a virtually-nonexistent WvW population. Holding a supply camp was a BIG DEAL - capturing a tower was virtually unheard of. I still have fond memories of organizing a small raiding group of 4-5 people and flipping supply camps even as the other two factions controlled half of the map per side. And in many ways, this back-against-the-wall styled WvW was a heck of a lot of fun - frustrating since all your progress was ephemeral and you could never organize anyone enough to end up making a lasting effect. But then again, Kaineng's WvWing populace - what little of it there was - was unfathomably tenacious, bordering on masochistic. During a brief period where I transferred to Borlis Pass while it was in the bracket to get 100% WvW completion, I remember feeling nothing but respect for the Kaineng players I saw that did fight on.

Nowadays, the "old WvW" of Kaineng is beyond unrecognizable. We own 90-100% of the map at all times, there are hordes of coordinated guilds dominating everything in sight, enemy players are extremely difficult to find due to the teamstacking (and yes, it IS teamstacking, and no matter what the OP says this is a bandwagon)... It's nice being able to visit the jump puzzle whenever I want and get through without fear of enemy players, but more and more, I'm finding that it's nowhere near as fun as it used to be. There's extremely little satisfaction in knowing that your team is dominating the enemy so thoroughly that there's almost no fighting to be had, and even less in knowing that it was due to tons of teamstackers who got fed up with the higher tiers.

I've been considering transferring off the server onto some place like Sorrow's Furnace, and probably would have already had it not been for the social network I've built here. WvW just isn't fun anymore. There's no room to build a small raiding team to take out objectives because the dozens of commanders are spearheading things and oftentimes shouting out those that try to lead in their stead; there's nothing to raid since the commanders have already taken it; the extremely-outmatched feeling from before has been replaced with mindless zerging; and there's not even the satisfaction of "sticking it to the winning side" when you've already won your current tier matchup halfway through the week. It's nice winning for once, again; but I much preferred things the way they were, even if they were extremely unsuccessful.

Kaineng was special before because it was the underdog server. You didn't go to Kaineng to win, but it nonetheless offered a very genuine, unique WvW experience that many of the brave few on it chose because it wasn't the higher-tier gameplay. Who cares if we always lost and repair costs were through the roof?- that wasn't the point. The point was always defying the odds and attempting to succeed anyways.

Nowadays? Odds - they don't even exist. It's exactly what the old WvWing populace here wanted to escape from - dozens of high-profile commanders tossing orders around, mindless zerging, and the continually-growing assumption that you're only on the server to teamstack.

Please stop transferring to Kaineng.