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#2232853 Defeating the Holy Trinity - Success or Failure?

Posted Arewn on 12 September 2013 - 11:25 PM

Success. Everyone in the game is dps with additional responsibilities, and thanks to that mix it is far more interesting and interactive to play then being a dps in most trinity games. The trinity games always break down responsibility into separate roles (by definition of the trinity), making it easier to create good group content, but diluting what each role does as a result. What I do in GW2 is far more interesting and interactive then my dps rotation, or my tps rotation as a tank, or whack-a-mole healing in other games.
The system could certainly use further improvements, but a game were I'm a dps who can shield stance in front of a downed ally to block projectiles while someone else helps them up, provide boons, debuff the enemy, CC, and keep myself alive by my own means, is more interesting to play then games where I can only ever do one or two of those things at once because of my predefined 'role' that arbitrarily limits me.

Where Arena Net dropped the ball is in two places, builds and encounter design:

Builds: condition stack limitation makes condition builds more or less unusable in group PVE content, and there's very little variety in how to build for dps (by very little, I mean berserker is essentially the only way). This is also the reason why many GW1 players feel GW2 sucks(on the combat side), because GW1 was about the builds, and build variety(stat/gear wise) in this game is lackluster, it sucks by comparison. GW1 combat(PVE) was mediocre at best, the usual stand and spam that was common in the industry at the time of its release. In fact so mediocre that you didn't even need real people to fill the roles, henchies worked just as well. The great thing about GW1 combat was the builds and the great system behind those builds, and GW2 doesn't hold up to that.

Encounter Design: this one's pretty straight forward, boss encounters just weren't that good at release. Large health pools against enemies that did the same thing the entire time. The fights that actually had phases or interesting mechanics were few and far between. Recent temp dungeons (and even fractals to a degree) have shown notable improvement, they just need to make that the norm instead of the exception.

Over all, the game is certainly lacking in areas so far as combat is concerned, but the "no trinity, role-less" system itself has been a success.

Back on the topic of builds for a second, I only mentioned dps earlier, but what of Healing power? Vitality? Toughness?
They are irrelevant in PVE, and they should be. These stats not being very useful in PVE isn't a fault of Arena Net's, it's the simple result of a system without roles. Why do you have a tank in other games (the one who builds defensive stats)? to keep DPS alive. Why do you have healers in other games(the one who builds healing stats)? to keep the tanks who protects the dps, and the dps alive. Because this is a game where you kill things, and there's no roles to force you to take those stats, the only reason for bringing those stats becomes personally comfort (in other words, as a buffer for people who have trouble surviving).
The point of the game is to kill things, and the only way to get people to bring stats that aren't for killing things is to force them to. Either force them by requiring a role that brings those stats (tanks, healers), or force them by not giving other choices in gear (make vitality, healing, or toughness on ALL gear).

#2220646 [Looking Ahead Discussion] New Skills & Traits

Posted draxynnic on 19 July 2013 - 04:32 AM

I do find the assertion that more skills -> worse balancing to be... interesting. Certainly, releasing a big bucket of skills all at once as happened with GW1 campaigns and expansions produced major upsets to the preexisting balance, but if they're introduced at a more measured rate, I could see new skills and traits actually helping to establish balance - providing counters to existing powerful setups and shoring up weak professions, without potentially upsetting the balance somewhere else by overwriting an existing skill or trait that had its own purpose.

I can certainly understand the concern, but a handful of skills and traits introduced here and there is a far cry from releasing two new professions and nearly doubling the skills available to existing professions all at once.

View PostFeatherman, on 19 July 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

I think you guys are stuck on the idea that balance is the evening of power. I have different criteria for balance.

For PvE the system will be balanced if new skills adds to the game's challenge rather than minimize it. The problem with GW2's PvE at the moment is that the combat isn't challenging in any sense. This is largely due to the homogeneous skills system and enemy design; there's no conveyance of right or wrong skill use as with other games (a weakness/resistance system, for example) but a difference in dps. I can see the introduction of new skills as a sort of fix for these issues. These new skills can possibly create meaningful niches within classes, each with both right and wrong skill use depending on the enemy, rather than the "every class does everything all the time" nonsense we have now. What worries me, however, is that there's no talk of redesigning enemies, so these skills could very well become a different way to dps in the end.
I think this is a big deal. The reason why everyone defaults to DPS in PvE isn't because of profession design - the professions actually have an interesting diversity in the way they support and control. The problem is that encounter design means that control is often pointless, and many forms of support are also pointless. A large part of the reason why PvE is dominated by the Warrior/Mesmer/Guardian trinity is because the support skills available to that trinity are actually useful, while professions like the elementalist, which is quite supportive on paper (and is balanced on the basis of being more of a support profession than DPS) finds that their attempts to support often go to waste.

#2220466 [Looking Ahead Discussion] New Skills & Traits

Posted Arewn on 18 July 2013 - 05:08 PM

Kinda uncomfortable with the idea of constant new skills do to balance concerns, I really wish the GW1 crowd didn't complain for it so much.

#2219588 GW2 guru NOT one of the top ten sites for GW2 players?

Posted The Shadow on 15 July 2013 - 09:11 PM

I'm not surprised it's not top 10, even the official forums weren't mentioned, who wants to spend their time reading other's complaints when you could be enjoying the game and using resources to augment the experience.

#2218411 Permanent account bonuses - Treadmill?

Posted Culture Shock on 10 July 2013 - 12:45 PM

The word "grind" is also over worked in this thread, especially since you get xp for just playing the game rather than killing a particular animal over and over.  In fact there is nothing in this game that forces you to grind anything unless you count "playing the game" as grinding.  People mistake "their own" desire to get something done fast as grind, which ignores the meaning of grind.  Grind :  "forcing one to perform a monotonous task repeatedly to progress".  Keeping up with the Jones's is fulfilling your own desires and not necessary to enjoy GW2.

#2217968 Why I'm probably quitting the game after only a few weeks

Posted Donkulous on 09 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

OP has some valid points, DE don't scale well, repeat too frequently and thus loose all sense of eventiness. More, if you save some villagers from bandits or something - the villagers don't care. Don't know you, don't treat you better. You don't get discounts from local vendors for having saved them. It's lame because the end result is you work to free miners or save a town and in the end it matters not one bit. It goes back to being lost as soon as you leave and no one remembers you if you come back.

That is pretty dame lame actually. I want to feel like passing through the world changes the world, not just me (as I level up). It's not a fulfilling system.

Now here's where I disagree. I've recently upgraded my computer, so I downloaded Rift, and Tera and some others I can't remember and tried them out and low and behold they all suck compared to GW2. At least for how I like to play. I don't want to follow a linear leveling path, being forced to complete one pointless mission after another - but that's exactly how all the other games feel to me. Picking up quests, killing mobs, going back to quest givers. Holy hell - the designers that thought up that shit should be forced to do those kinds of quests for a year.

GW2 doesn't play like that at all. You can level lots of ways, and you don't even have to do your races starting area. I like sylvari characters but don't like the savari starting zone - I skip it. Go do one of the others. I like mixing in some wvw and crafting. And never to I feel like I have to complete a heart to level up - if I don't like it I skip and find one I do like. Yeah - I know I'm not completing maps, so what? You don't have to complete anything. This is the future of how MMO should be structured. Variable leveling paths, variable mission completion paths. No forced questing.

You don't even have to do your personal quest if you don't want.

So, here's my 2 cents. It could be better, DE and World Permanence, but even without all that it's still better that any other MMO so if you're into playing MMO's at least PVE - it's miles ahead of anything else right now.

#2213141 ArenaNet ceases Guild Wars 1 live development, automates game

Posted Lordkrall on 22 June 2013 - 05:54 AM

View PostZaishen, on 21 June 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

guildwars 1 was the best mmo game ever made, a game like that apears once in 40 years, arenanet tactics to not continue develop gw1, was the bigger mistake ever made, they should do the same tactics as blizzard, to continue with the project

guildwars 2 is not rly guildwars 2, because is 100% diferent game play, plus made on a tetris game engine , its like you play rift, and that kind of game play is boring

RIP GW1, best mmo ever!

1: GW1 was not an MMO

2: GW1 has most likely not made any kind of real money for several YEARS, why would they spend money and time to keep developing something like that?

3: Blizzard will cease working on a game as soon as it is no longer bringing them any useful income. D3 is a rather good example of this. They still don't have that awesome PvP that was advertised to be in game, and it was quite a long time since the game was released, and clearly they don't bother much with adding it either.

4: That awesome game Guild Wars is still fully playable, even if they don't add more content to it. And since it was so awesome before they ceased development, it would still be awesome, right?

#1911645 Guild Wars 2, Two sides of the Same Coin

Posted XPhiler on 10 September 2012 - 02:59 PM

I've been reading a ton of posts here on GW2 and sometimes its hard to understand if two people are really actually talking about the same game due to completely opposite claims.

Some people say GW2 is overhyped and is really a bad game while others say that Arenanet Delivered everything they promised. Each side acuses the others of begin Fanboys of GW2 or Fanboys of other games depending on which side you're on. After participating in various threads I think it all falls down to perception,How people play the game can really make one see the same thing in completely opposite ways. Those who say GW2 is amazing are right but those who say its nothing out of the ordinary are also right. Let me start by explaining the point of view of those who like the game, in their views:

Guild wars 2 is an amazing game that

A: Delivers an amazing experiance if you like story and lore
B: Avoids many of the repetition that exist in other MMOs
C: Allows you to play your character in anyway you want
D: Provides you with a rich world to explore
E: Immerses you in so much richness and details that it will blow your mind

But there are catches for this to be true you need to be patient enough that you have to be willing to reach your goals in a fun way rather then the quickest way possible and most importantly you need to be ready to stop and smell the roses.

On the other hand for people who arent willing to slow down, Guild Wars 2 is just like any other MMOs with possibly some of the features players like missing because the game is really not designed to be played with a competitve edge mind set and I am not saying this a crutique, if thats how you enjoy playing that is how you enjoy playing I am not here to tell you how to play but your experience will be different to someone who plays it like the game is meant to be played.

I think this is what has caused this disparity in opinion more then anything else.

Let me elaborate.

In most other MMOs the first thing you do is rush to Max Level and you do that using the path of least resistance. What this translates into when playing GW2 is probably more frastration then enjoyment. Keep reading I will give specific examples of all I mention, yes this is going to be one long post. If you're looking for progression in the sense that you're just looking to get stronger that coupled with trying to get there as quickly as possible will result in one not finding anything to do once they reach max level and worst yet that coupled with what will likely seem as an ordinary game while leveling up will make it very hard to justify to yourself why you should keep playing.

But how can it be that two people have such a completely different and opposite experiance. Let me quote the usual dynamic event I quote: It starts with a treasure hunter who leaves his home to walk to the beach in order to seek artifacts he then intends to sell. He starts by asking the players to help him grab Dwarven artifacts from the bottom of the sea. After he gets a large enough shipment he walks back to his home where he meets his fense. The fense checks out the artifacts and finds one that troubles him. Pirates show up and try to get the artifacts. The players will hopefully push them back and the two talk some more and decide that this one troublesome artifacts needs to be dealt with, luckily the fense knows this guy that should know how to deal with these things so they agree and transport is called. Transport is provided by 2 asura and their dolyak. There is some trouble along the way but finally you get there. The asura has sensed that the troublesome artifact is in fact a summoning stone, he offers to help out as he has experiance with this sort of thing so you all walk out to a field, after a short ritual whatever is in the summoning stone is summoned and players have to kill this nasty demon that has now been unleashed into the world.

Or well thats how the dynamic Event chain plays out but what does someone who's rushing to end level ends up most likely seeing? It depends at what stage they are passing by really. If they experiance the 1st stage all they will experiance is collect these artifacts from the bottom of the sea, kill some annoying skate or pirates that happen to be close to the artifacts and quickly move on seeking some new event to do. If they pass by the second stage they exeperiance kill X amount of pirates. If they come by the 3rd stage its a kill these wolves and worms while walking next to this dolyak and 2 asura, perhaps ressurect one of them if they fall in the fight. If they pass by in the last stage, kill this somewhat challening mini boss. Thats it. They will not stop and talk to the various NPCs they will never know the story or context of each single Dynamic Event they participate and they're ultimately right, without the story or the context Each dynamic event plays out more or less the same and not only the same like other Dynamic Events but the same like every quest in every MMO when you dont bother to read the story behind it. After all what can you do in any quest or dynamic event? Kill, interact or move from point A to point B, its the story and the presentation that makes the difference.

Now conversly how will someone who wants to enjoy the game experiance this event? first things first they're likely to pass by when the event hasnt start or perhaps if they catch it in the middle they will simply look for the start and redo the missing part later on, in any case it will start with a bit of a wait most likely until the event starts. Thats building anticipation, hmm this npc told me he like artificats, this sounds like it could end up badly but i wonder how. That anticipation is likely to enhance your enjoyment ultimately. Then you get started and you get to admire the great attention to detail. Fense calls for transport by actually whistling, you get to see this pigeon fly in, land on the ground, the fense walking to it, knelling next to it as to attach the note, the pigeon flying away and 30 seconds to a minute later this 2 asura with the dolyak walking in. You get to hear funny dialog as the asura and the Norn negotiate for the transport. You get to learn that Asura used to tinker with summoning stones and that that tinkering eventually resulted in a his lab being blown up. This is something that some people enjoy a lot and makes the game come alive for them!

But what's more you get to compare how this would have played out in a traditional MMO. In such an MMO You're likely to get a quest that said hey I collect artifacts go kill pirates and steal their artifacts for me. Then you'd get a quest telling you to go kill another 10 pirates to show them who's boss and ensure they dont try taking the artifacts back. And then you'd be told to take the artifact to this person who'd finally tells you to kill this elite mob that would spawn right next to you.

So lets be honest people cant we see the differences clearly right there? Those who like to rush through their game and do events as they come across them rather then seeking them out will do event without having any story and context and ultimately they really end up experiancing what any other MMO does and nothing more, they still just killed pirates and skate to get the artifacts, they still just killed this miniboss etc.. But lets be also honest on the other side of the coin, those who love to experiance the story and the lore, those who are patient enough to do this from start till end get to experiance all that Arenanet promised. This doesnt feel like kill a bunch of wolves in order to get from point a to point b, it feels closer to an interactive movie then anything else! the world truely feels alive! Both experiance are 100% true in my opinion, in depends on how you went through each of them.

Its also not just Dynamic Events, lets take map exploration for example. Someone who just is trying to get to max level quickly is going to do Hearts, skill challenges, POI and all the stuff necessary to get map complition just like anyone else. But doing those challenges just for the sake of getting the XP will alas make them become mechanical. There is no wonder in traveling to a POI, see the name of the area pop out, open the map, make a mental note where the direction of the next POI is and rush in that direction. People who do that and claim there is no real exploration are right ! But what does someone who loves exploration Experiance when doing the same task? So one of the POIs you find in Harathi Hinterlands is the Martyr's tomb. Well okey good to know but who's the Martyr? An investigation around the area will uncover an NPC that will tell you the tomb is allegedly that of Saul D'Alessio and import figure from GW1, The Martyr's tomb already suddenly becomes a lot more interesting and something that has to be explored in detail cause such an important figure might hold further secrets that have to be discovered by the real explorer. Next to his tomb there is the ruin of a statue dedicated to the godess dwayna. Once again thats some nostalgy for players of GW1 but more then that if you interact with the statue you're told that you can see the impressions on the ground where thousands of people used to kneel. There is also a candle you can interact with and if you light the candle and actually make your character kneel the avatar of dwayna will appear to you. It will tell you more about Saul D'Alessio and a particularly fanatical guardian that even in dead still guards the tomb. She will tell you that calling out his name will have him appear to you and that he needs to be stopped as he indiscriminately kills anyone living who happens by. You go back to the same place where you unlocked the martyr's way point and if you interact again with the tomb that previously did nothing, you get this mini boss fight and associated dynamic event that not only rewards you with the usual XP, gold and karma but also drops down a chest!

See the different experiance, someone who rushes will just experiance a sound effect, some XP, a few fight with the surrounding ghosts and nothing else. Can we really blame them if they claim Such an experiance is nothing special? On the other hand however someone who is in it to explore and stops to smell the roses will get Lore, story, XP, karma , coin and Items as well as the satisfaction of having discovered a hidden secret.

Once again for some it will be just like any other MMO for others the amazing experiance of living world they were promised.

So people please once and for all lets stop calling each other names and be more understanding of one another point of views. Its okey to argue points I am sure those who like to take the game slowly will correctly argue that those who rush need to slow down and those who like rushing will also correctly argue that the game isnt anything out of the ordinary for them and that slowing down isnt really a solution because they dont enjoy the wait that entails. Obviously you cant tell someone to play in a way they hate in order to enjoy the game, its not as simple as that for sure!

Diverse opinions are okey but people who like the game like the game for a reason, they are fans because they like the game and not the opposite, they dont simply like the game because they are fans!

Like wise even though for us that like taking the game slow, the game seems amazing and find it very hard to understand how others dont share our same opinion, playing it in some ways can really make it no different than many other MMOs on the market, its natural that such people would not understand how people can ever believe that Arenanet delivered on their promises because in their Eyes they didnt.

Lets all try to keep this in mind and avoid fighting each other and repeating the same arguments over and over again. Lets make sure reading this forum doesnt become grinding cause lately to me personally I started getting this feeling and I blame that on this disparity I talk about in this post. Each side think they're right and they think that by repeating their opinion they will finally get the other side to abandon what they view as bias and change thier ways. Unfortunitely its probably not as simple as that.