Menehune

El Duderino, on 05 May 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

But that's my point, why do you have to prove to others who enjoy the game that you think that they're wrong? You're not just saying I don't like it or I'm disappointed with the game because of A or B, you're going to great lenghts to try and prove that you're not in a minority and that the ones enjoying playing are some sort of blind fanboys that need to be converted to your truth.

Can you just accept that:


1) There's no way to tell if the majority of people who bought GW2 are still playing or if not will still return or even that have stopped playing for other reasons other than "the game sucks".


2) There are a lot of people who like and enjoy playing GW2 no matter what your perception is or how many others have stated the opposite.


3) The game is not for everyone, it's ok if don't like it, that is your opinion. You're free to post your opinion but trying to prove it as fact using none and making a huge effort to make the point that X game is a failure is just sad.


4) The game isn't bad, it's just not for you, time to move on.

Alright, a Penny Arcade video and the collection of auto-likes for it's inclusion and surface level relevance. Now care to outline how this relates to GW2 in a meaningful way, besides superficial reasons that can't be escaped due to the game being bound in it's state as an RPG (which the video takes note as intrinsically containing skinner box elements in the genre's nature).
GW2 as an MMORPG of course falls into one of the categories of games that borrow most heavily from ol skinner's box, but considering the tangible and generally functional efforts made to reduce it, such as flattening the leveling curve, focus on exploration, giving tokens instead of chances at random drops, the general increase focus on skill requirement vs the classic 'memorize a rotation' commonly found in the genre, the removal of several classic content gates and gear treadmills, etc (these elements should need no explanation since they are touched on in the video), why is this significantly relevant to GW2 in particular?

So, can you give a solid example, or collection of smaller but cumulatively significant examples, for how or why this is the case for GW2 beyond it's RPG elements?
I'll start you off with an outside example of my own. Here's a clear example of why WoW does: raids, they are a major part of the game that receive large amount of development resources, they work off a system where the player is set on a schedule (weekly lock outs), must repeat content a large amount of times to get gear in order to be viable to participate in the raids, then must repeat the raid's content one boss at a time repeatedly in order to progress to acquire more gear, the chance of getting which is a gamble (random chance to drop), further progression in the system is repeating the raid again with minor changes for additional difficulty, but is essentially dependent on getting more powerful gear (heroic mode), all of which resets and requires you to restart periodically when new content comes out.

For GW2 you could say "Legendaries and the like! they are RNG and require stupid amounts of content repetition to acquire(grindy) and are supposed to be the game's ultimate (pve) goal." but... in the end legendaries are just a skin that are there as an excuse/motive for people who want to grind. There's a small selection of them, they haven't been significantly updated or added to since release, don't require much development focus, and it's laughable to say the player requires them in any way shape or form.

The most relevant point I can see for this, which is coincidentally touched on by Featherman, is that since Arena Net didn't heavily focus on making use of the skinner box techniques, the base RPG elements which contain them aren't properly covered up and feel grindy as a result.
For example, one of the RPG elements (perhaps the primary) that are directly tied to the skinner box is gear, you progressively acquire more powerful gear, which is commonly tiered in some way, and you become driven to acquire it to the point that getting that next, more powerful or otherwise desirable, piece of gear is a larger driving factor to play then playing the game itself is. Arena Net's decision to make gear more accessible and less of a focus/requirement works against this motivating factor, while still keeping the gear/tiers/progression in the game. The result being that gear generally isn't greatly desirable or significant as a reward, and when you do feel the need to go after it, feels grindy. Even getting an exotic drop doesn't feel that great, its significance is just that it's worth more when you go to sell it on the TP. But then when you have to go get a specific exotic for your armor, it can easily feel grindy, like you're going out of your way for something you generally just toss into the UI for extra gold, and is ultimately a minor upgrade that you don't even require to play.

I feel there may be some confirmation bias going on, a desire to see negativity towards or general negative mind set towards the game, and then focusing on relative negative point in the video that support your ideas, without taking the whole into account. As a game, yes, GW2 uses skinner box techniques, and becoming conscious of this makes it feel grindy. But as an MMORPG, GW2 is on the comparative opposite end of the skinner box, taking the genre's long going status into account.

A note on the before mentioned content gates and gear treadmills, all i mean is: we're not running AC 20 times to gear up, so that we can run AC heroic 20 time to gear up, so that we can run AC the raid 20 times to gear up, so that we can maybe run AC the raid heroic to get gear, and then have it all reset when new gear comes out next patch.

MazingerZ, on 03 May 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

You are welcome to try and pass it off as true, but I don't see a mass exodus or an uprising of angry customers. I see a small group of pessimists being very vocal. So as much fluff you accuse Colin, I can say the same thing about your ranting.

Soki, on 03 May 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

It's amusing to see you care about a developer's time, yet you're quick to label them as incompetent. You can't have it both ways.

I, on 03 May 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

You're completely ignoring the very fact that MMOs are never finished, they are always in a state of development. You're accusing ArenaNet of actually doing their jobs. Developing the game!

Soki, on 30 April 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

but ANet designed this game so that it could be accessible to everyone.  this statement makes me think you actual promote elitism, that all content shouldnt be available to everyone, that only the most dedicated would be able to access content.  1. thats wrong (and thats not subjective, you just want to be a special snowflake) and 2. just because everyone can do it doesnt mean its still not challenging.  people are challenged in many ways.

Soki, on 30 April 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

there it is again, you sir are an elitist and this game is not for you.

Soki, on 30 April 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

more subjection.  and contradiction, you acknowledge the game is casual but then say its TOO casual. listen a game is either casual or not

Soki, on 30 April 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

actually, some of my guildies are respeccing in anticipation with the new changes on april 30th and they are still discovering new ways to play a profession after 700 hours on that character so again, what you say is subjective.

Soki, on 30 April 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

i hate to bring him up, but i see this "density in posts" and they are usually by *EDITTED OUT*.  that doesnt count, its one guy making several threads.  and you think Guru and the official forums encompass a vast majority of the playerbase?  again, this is narrowminded because its simply not true.  Guru is a SMALL percentage of players, even smaller for the official forums because for all intents and purposes Guru is more official than the official forums.

and i like how you completely dismissed Craywulf.  i think he saw you for what you are and you again, dismissed it.

Soki, on 30 April 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

oh more insults, great

Soki, on 30 April 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

If you're going accuse a person of being a valiant defender of sub-par product, then at least acknowledge that you might be a negative-nancy about a decent product. It's all subjective and pointing fingers at each other isn't even a debate. There are three facts here, 1. ArenaNet has made changes post release. 2. ArenaNet has been consistent in their updates in regards to how often. 3. ArenaNet  will continue to make changes (updates) in future.

Whether these changes are good or not is purely subjective. I for one have liked most of the updates, only few things I didn't care for, but not enough to warrant a "make or break" mentality about it. Quite frankly I think it's rather premature to be suggesting it's a "make or break" update when we haven't seen it yet. Furthermore it will be months before some changes are out of beta.

Featherman, on 30 April 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

what gives you the impression that people are sitting around nodding their heads?

we got fractals, so in 8 months, we got 8 new dungeons you said so yourself, what other game does this?! really?! weve had numberous balancing updates, gemstore additions for those that are into that, and the living story that you know will encompass more in the future.  now they are shift MUCH needed focus to PVP in the april 30th patch.  Anet is working TIRELESSLY man.

TIRELESSLY. NO ONE is sitting around nodding their heads.

theyve fleshed out pve, now they are focusing on pvp, they cant do it all and do it all AT ONCE.

and this is my point.

i wouldnt be nodding my head if i saw stagnation like SWTOR, but i see, like, ACTUALLY SEE Anet making changes and increasing the game's offerings.  so ive decided on patience instead of childish demands that are baseless and formulated from instant gratification parasites.

Darkobra, on 30 April 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

but can you blame them for having to meet their financers demands?  i cant, you think Wildstar isnt looking to please its financers?  they all do, because they have to.  Blizzard is an exception because they bring in so much on their own.  but the rest of them? they HAVE to play by their investor's rules.

this is natural for ALL mmos except WoW.

DarkHorseKnight, on 29 April 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Yes and No.

yes because GW2 is a different game than GW1 and may never be like its predecesor ever again.  so you must accept it in that aspect.

and

No because considering the amount of content we've received in just this first 8 months for free?  its naive to think ANet cant add more and more and more features.  i mean guild halls and player housing is coming, these things take time.

but is april 30th make or break?  maybe for you, but hardly for the rest of us.

Although it's a good read and brings up valid points, the article has one major issue (an issue found in all of economics).  It assumes everybody plays for money or to make a profit.  Some people find crafting fun, fascinating, like myself.  I cannot give a rats behind how much profit I make, but learning the process and mastering it is what makes it fun.

It's not always about the money, people.

El Duderino, on 23 April 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

So, what parts of the current game are you locked out from if you don't pay?
Funnily enough even sub-based games requires extra money for certain stuff.

Oh kitten it, you only want a reason to hate ArenaNet and will not see reason, I give up.

P4ndora, on 18 April 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Yea and then some other people (you know who I talk about) will proclaim it wasn't the player their fault, but Anets fault by not being clear what is an exploit and what not.

pumpkin pie, on 09 April 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Or more to the point not “dedicated roles.” It seems to me that El’s problem isn’t so much that there are not roles in the game, but rather that he is expected to do more than one thing, or that he is given tools to deal damage as a way of contributing when his other, primary, role is not needed. This has nothing to do with roles, it is about multitasking. Some players, and it is entirely within their rights to hold this preference, simply would rather play a game that allows them to specialize at one thing, and one thing only, and thus only ever do that one thing.

I can only speak for myself, but personally I dislike that kind of stagnant gameplay. Hench why I prefer engineer; I love my versatility and being able to dynamically shift roles mid-combat so that I am always contributing. Some people just prefer to play as “dedicated healers” or “dedicated utility” characters, and in truth those players are likely having a hard time connecting with Guild Wars 2. I’m sympathetic, but logically it seems such players would be better off leaving the game, as they take issue with one of the fundamental design principles of it.

Bloodtau, on 08 April 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Never do what the community asks for, people will continue to complain regardless because no matter what, someone is going to be saying "the feature I wanted didn't get fixed! ArenaNet should work on that". Furthermore, it completely screws up development when they are more worried about going on wild goose chases for what ever whim the masses throw out, rather then focus on their own set goals which encompass the bigger picture (or at least A coherent picture).
Also, Arena Net is not composed of one person, or one team. Just because they're working on new skins, or leader-boards, or holidays, or w.e, doesn't mean the WHOLE company is and nothing else is being addressed.

Dasviidonja, on 08 April 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

No, that's just listing out a few activities that tend to give more gold.

This is grind :
Mine ori, mine ori, mine, mine, mine...
Or
Do boss events, boss events, boss events, events events events...
Or
Fractals, fractals, fractals, fractals....
Or
CoF1, CoF1, CoF1, CoF1, CoF1...

Having one most efficient way to make gold out of numerous other venues does not suddenly mean it must be the only thing you have to do over and over and over and over and over and over to make gold.

But if you choose to do so, don't complain about grind.

Menehune, on 07 April 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Why thank you, kind sir! I will be in Germany (specifically Bavaria - I've been wanting to visit it since I played The Beast Within back in my teens) for a holiday in May so I'll be sure to raise my mug in your health!

Which actually brings me to an on-topic subject. Since this is an RPG, I wish ANet would implement some more in terms of fluff for RP reasons. Object interactivity is already there - but taverns seem to be a bit bland. They could use some sprucing up - minigame tables, choice of drinks, bar brawls, minstrels, actual events...

Coming to think of it... Every major player hub would benefit from actual dynamic events. They wouldn't even necessarily need to be combat driven... Even simple stuff like temporary markets, music concerts etc would work, and of course heavier stuff like a riot or something.